Dear job seekers: don't be mad if a job you think you like doesn't respond to your application. The people reviewing your resume are probably idiots.

"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein) 03/03/2020 at 09:39 • Filed to: None

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I work in recruiting. At my company, I’ve set us up where the hiring managers on various teams have access to our recruiting software. They review resumes of candidates who apply to their jobs, and if they like someone, they send me a note to that effect, and then I phone interview the candidate. I’m here to tell you, sometimes often these managers are idiots.

It’s not that they’re actually idiots, they just are, like many people put into jobs with hiring responsibilities but not given proper hiring training, acting on all their worst assumptions and preconceived notions about what should be important with hiring, but actually isn’t important at all.

There’s a particular manager I work with who’s rather high strung about wanting to get candidates, but when they do see one, they ask nitpicky questions that don’t make sense. Yesterday, someone applied to this manager’s job opening, and the manager likes the resume. But, the manager is being an idiot.

The candidate’s resume lists an end date of February 2020 on their most recent job. This usually indicates they don’t work for that company anymore, as most people who still work somewhere list their most recent job date as (start date) to present, not an end date. They also included a list of references, the first of whom is a senior manager at their most recent job. Here’s the note I got when requesting a phone interview:

Please do a phone interview for (name) to gain additional information. Get additional information on his AutoCAD experience and reasons for wanting to leave (most recent company). I notice he has a Principal from (most recent company) listed as a reference. Little unusual that the principal is knowing that you want to leave.

You know what’s not unusual? Getting laid off from a job and your boss offering to be a reference. Which is a much likelier explanation for this candidate’s resume. But no, this manager has to go and make a bunch of incorrect negative assumptions about the candidate. I sent a happy little note back to clarify:

I will phone screen. The job at (most recent company) has an end date—probably has the reference because doesn’t work there anymore. I’ll find out for sure.

This is but one example, but it happens all the time: people reviewing resumes see something that leads them to make assumptions about the candidate, and without fail these assumptions are A) negative and B) usually incorrect because they’re made by people who know fuck all about hiring.

I try to drill it into these managers’ heads not to think like this, but, they’ve got long and illustrious histories of thinking this way about candidates, and old habits die hard.

So, just remember, the people on the other end of those job applications you’re submitting are terrible. It sucks, but when it comes to applying for jobs, the best thing you can do for yourself is set your expectations as low as possible. If you encounter people who are genuinely competent throughout the entire hiring process, you’ve found yourself an exception.

UPDATE: I got a response back from the manager on my explanation:

Oh... I did not notice that. Just assumed it was a recent resume and had Feb instead of to Current. Yes, find out a little more info.

See, they admitted they made an assumption! People do all kinds of assuming when reading resumes and unless they are making educated assumptions, they’re probably misinfor med.

E90M3 > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 09:46

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The people reviewing your resume are probably fucking idiots.

FIFY

Wacko > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 09:49

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Sounds like you are good at your job. This also illustrates well why having a good HR department key to success of the company.  

TorqueToYield > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 09:50

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Don’t worry my manager knows fuck all about not only hiring but what they manage as well.

“I don’t like it” is corporate policy making.

Ash78, voting early and often > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 09:50

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A couple years ago, I got passed up for a promotion INSIDE my current firm for a job description that I was....already doing and was fully qualified for . But it was a pay grade higher than where I was . My current boss was the hiring manager. This was a softball promotion.

However, because I didn’t specifically list my supervisory experience explicitly on my resume (even though my boss knows about them personally ) , the HR gatekeepers told my boss that he couldn’t even formally interview me. Most people would just get a rejection from HR , no explanation.

We have 280,000 employees. This idiocy runs deep and wide.

someassemblyrequired > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 09:53

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Best thing you can do if you are not straight out of college is ask your friends who’s hiring or create your own job.

I don’t know why mid-career people even bother applying online, unless it’s for retail jobs.

getFuckedHerb > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 09:54

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Conversely you get a bunch of HR people screening applicants for a technical position (and they have to do the screening, their title is recruiter, the hiring manager only gets to see people who are approved by the recruiter) who don’t know the difference between Java and Javascript and the best thing they can tell me about a candidate is “They seem really eager”.

It swings both ways but almost assuredly the person who didn’t call you back is doing so for a terrible reason.

Sovande > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 09:58

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Being a recruiter must be a pain in the ass. From dealing with difficult clients to dealing with prospective employees, it’s all gotta be hard. I work in the construction industry as an estimator, a skill set that is fairly highly in demand at the moment, and I get about 5 calls a day. None of the recruiters ever listen to my salary requirements or my location requirements, the just keep sending me listings for jobs outside my salary range or that are located in some far corner or MD or VA. I have also had experiences where I have told the recruiter my requirements, they assure me that the client knows them, and then I go to the interview only for it to abruptly end once salary is brought up. I lost a perfect opportunity because the recruiter wasn’t up front with me or the client about salary and I was not considered as a result. It was infuriating.

Textured Soy Protein > getFuckedHerb 03/03/2020 at 09:58

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That certainly happens but I’m an HR/recruiting person who is technically fluent enough to correctly screen and recommend candidates. Don’t assume HR people aren’t technically savvy just because they’re in HR. Sure, many of them aren’t but there’s a whole subset of recruiting people who are technical recruiting people by trade. 

Wheelerguy > Ash78, voting early and often 03/03/2020 at 09:59

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This idiocy runs deep and wide.

Like a Tilkedrome hairpin.

Textured Soy Protein > someassemblyrequired 03/03/2020 at 10:01

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Getting hired by referral is definitely good to do but not everyone’s social/professional network will always provide enough opportunities when someone needs a job.

Applying online is lower odds because you’re often one of a crowd but I’ve gotten jobs through networking, being recruited, and applying online. Applying online just takes consistent effort because with all the idiots on the other end of job applications you never know whether you’ll actually get considered. But it happens enough to not be a futile exercise. 

benjrblant > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 10:04

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Could it have been a contract job that ended? I’ve known many friends that sign 6mo contracts for a certain project which, once completed, is the end of that company’s need for those services.

The whole insufficient training or lack of investing in existing employees is frustrating.

Mid Engine > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 10:07

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ATS systems are evil and reject talent based on keywords alone , the best way to land a gig is through word of mouth. You can usually tell you’re talking to the right company when the last person you interview with, is a recruiter , who’s job is try to pry past salary information out of you. They try.

Three years ago I was approached by two companies, competitors in the same space. Company one had a long, thorough, and exhaustive interviewing process. Company two still made you interview with eight people, but the hiring manager made it all happen within two weeks. I talked to different stakeholders every day (phone interviews). The communication was spot on, no gaps where you’re thinking “what the fuck is going on, did they decide to pick another candidate?”

I received a strong offer from company two, and advised company one that I was withdrawing my candidacy as I had accepted an offer elsewhere. They were upset because I didn’t make allowances for their three fucking month process, especially since I was the lead candidate by far.

Stop fucking around wasting people’s time because you have a “process” , when I hire I’m looking for two attributes from a  new hire: can they learn, and do they have a strong work ethic. Everything else can be filled with training and mentoring .

One last thing: get the salary understood from the get go, it’s pointless to go through weeks/months to find out they low ball you.

Thisismydisplayname > Sovande 03/03/2020 at 10:08

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Are you still looking for work?  If so, what region?  I can check my company’s Internal postings to see if there is anything available.

Textured Soy Protein > Sovande 03/03/2020 at 10:12

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Most of the trouble with recruiting comes from the client side more than the candidates. Sure you get wacky candidates but it’s the people making decisions who have the power and they make their decisions in all sorts of arbitrary ways.

As for your experience, recruiting for staffing agencies is a base+commission situation where they hire entry level folks sink or swim. It’s a very sales-y environment and many of these places aren’t as concerned about their people being detail oriented because it’s a total crapshoot numbers game for them. Put enough candidates in front of enough clients and eventually they’ll make some placements. It’s messy.

I do corporate recruiting and my job is nominally still about finding people for jobs but I’m responsible for the whole hiring process and I’m not trying to sell anybody anything. I’m part of the company, and m ost of my challenges come from dealing with the company, much more than the candidates. I spend just as much time helping managers navigate their way to getting approvals to start recruiting for a new job, and approvals to offer someone a position, as I do searching for people and keeping the process moving for people who apply to us.

Many of the managers are fine, but some of them, they want things to happen, they have ideas about how things should happen, most of these ideas are based on their own personal experience doing hiring, but they’ve never been trained to do hiring by someone who actually specializes in hiring. So my challenge is getting these managers to do things the right way, when they want to flex and try to office-politic into making things go their way. I at least somewhat have the necessary level of influence to encourage the correct way but it’s never perfect .

I’ve done agency recruiting in the past and I don’t like it because unlike corporate recruiting, there’s almost no control over the client, and your income is directly influenced by their arbitrary decision making. If you get a good client who looks at things on the level and makes good decisions it can be fruitful, but there are many more bad clients than good, because generally speaking there are many more people who are bad at hiring than good at it.

P.S. got any VDOT inspection certifications? Because my company does a ton of transportation construction inspection, but not estimating...

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > someassemblyrequired 03/03/2020 at 10:13

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Or for goverment jobs...  No getting around the process in goverment, no matter how cumbersome it may be.

Textured Soy Protein > Mid Engine 03/03/2020 at 10:16

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You’ve made some assumptions here that I have to correct.

I am the system admin for my company’s ATS. I picked it myself. It does not auto-reject candidates.

Companies have to decide they want their ATS to auto-reject candidates and configure it accordingly. Almost every company with an ATS does not have it configured to automatically reject candidates. Unless they have a total fire hose of people applying, they’d much rather have their recruiters try to pick through a bunch of off-target resumes to find the good ones, than have a piece of software auto-flush candidates.

You are correct that a process should not take a super long time and be confusing to you as the candidate. But the company that had its shit together is likely the one that had a carefully mapped-out hiring process that kept the various people on the correct playbook so that you had a good experience.

A company with the recruiter as the last step should’ve had the recruiter talk to you earlier in the process about money. They also don’t need to “pry” salary history from you. A company that’s good at hiring will A) have the recruiter at least start the salary conversation with you before you come for an in-person interview to ensure you’re in the target range and B) have enough of an understanding of the dollar value of that job function that they can decide what money to offer you without knowing your salary history.

Sovande > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 10:18

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I don’t have any VDOT cer ts. I’m basically a commercial/multi-family   construction estimator with some project management experience. And you are absolutely right, the agency side of things seems really messy.  And I think it gives some facets of the industry a bad name.  Sounds like you’re on the right side of the fence.

Mid Engine > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 10:23

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To some degree it depends on the industry and role you’re trying to fill, I work in semiconductors, specifically targeted at solving cloud computing datacenter in efficiencies . I get hit on at least once a week as companies scramble to fill jobs that can make the company 100's of millions of dollars. The talent pool is narrow by definition .

Candidates in high demand don’t need to worry too much about how an ATS works, or, the ridiculous processes some follow. Ain’t got no time for that; I’m paid to make shit happen so the hiring company must have the same sense of urgency. Also, I work in an at-will state, if I don’t pan out fire my ass. 

Sovande > Thisismydisplayname 03/03/2020 at 10:24

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I’m looking if the right opportunity arises. I’m in the DC area (currently work in DC). My requirements are kind of restrictive as I can afford to be picky. I don’t want to commute outside of the beltway, and I need to be paid like a Senior Estimator (even if they don’t give me that title). So basically, I am at the upper level salary wise, have a ton of experience with several very well recognized GC’s and I can do most tasks either on site or in an office as I have served also worked as a superintendent and PM at job sites. I also have a lot of experience in preconstruction negotiations, budgeting and conceptualization.

It’s all just as boring as it sounds.

Textured Soy Protein > benjrblant 03/03/2020 at 10:25

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It’s a possibility. Also the type of work this person does is project-driven where the companies that do the work need to chase after clients to keep their employees busy. So even if this person had been a full-time employee, if the company didn’t have enough client work lined up to keep them busy they could’ve been laid off. Either situation is a perfectly reasonable reason to not be with the company anymore. 

Textured Soy Protein > Wacko 03/03/2020 at 10:26

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Thanks, I try but if there’s one thing I’ve learned in the business world is that companies have momentum and it takes a whole lot of agreement to implement real effective good thinking. 

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 10:30

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I would think a candidate getting mad would be a great way for them to disqualify themselves.

66P1800inpieces > someassemblyrequired 03/03/2020 at 10:38

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#1 get reference through connection on L inkden.

#2 apply online through company’s website using reference’s link or code.

Textured Soy Protein > Mid Engine 03/03/2020 at 10:45

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Sorry but you’re doing some of your own assumption-making based on your particular experience as a candidate. I’m here to tell you how this stuff works, from my being on the inside.

Some of my past jobs include recruiting for a company that makes cancer radiation therapy machines, and another that does big data/cloud (although not manufacturing the hardware that runs it) for the federal government. I work at a civil engineering company now. This stuff is pretty consistent across different industries.

Setting up an ATS to auto-reject candidates is a tool used only to deal with an overflow of candidates. No overflow of candidates, no need to filter them.

The way ATS candidate filtering works, one can set all kinds of flags for things. The most common filtering mechanism is knockout questions, not scanning for keywords in resumes . So like, “can you work in the US for an indefinite amount of time , without immigration sponsorship?” Or they can do questions where it asks the candidate how many years of Javascript coding experience they have and it auto-rejects anyone who answers below a certain number.

What you’re describing with getting hit on by recruiters is called sourcing. Nobody is using an ATS to auto-filter sourced candidates. They’re going out using Linkedin or other job boards to find you and if you express interest in the position they add you to the ATS to track you through their hiring process. At that point they already know they’re chasing you and no filtering occurs here. 

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 10:58

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Human Resources: The Dark Arts

I’m 55. No point in my applying for any jobs except maybe truck driver or Walmart greeter. Or maybe I could sell paint at Home Depot.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 10:58

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So does it become your duty, then, to sell candidates to hiring managers?

Dakotahound > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 11:06

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A strategy that has worked for me is to submit many resumes for a single job. I usually submit the first resume  and, after waiting a few days, submit another one with some updates. The cover letter for the second resume states something like “I am very interested in the position, and wanted you to be aware of some additional information...” A f ew days later, I submit another one.

Sometimes companies get many applications for the same job, so this improves the chances that your resume will actually be read. Also, it reinforces the fact that you are interested.

Textured Soy Protein > Dakotahound 03/03/2020 at 11:11

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Actually you are shooting yourself in the foot doing this.

Most recruiting software creates a single profile for you and if you apply multiple times to the same job it shows those separate applications in your same profile. Applying a second time t o the same job usually doesn’t get viewed negatively but do it too much and you look desperate.

Most people who do hiring including myself don’t give a shit about cover letters. Most bad managers like I’ve described here will find something in the cover letter to make negative assumptions about. Only write a cover letter if the application requires one, or there's something specific about you as a candidate that you need to convey to the company but there's not a good place for it in the resume.

Mid Engine > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 11:11

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Precisely, the recruiters have to chase applicants and convince them to listen to the opportunity. Recruiters are frustrated that they place a job opening on LinkedIn and get flooded with people that clearly cannot meet the basic job requirements. The recruiters gotta, you know, recruit the real talent (most often a friend works for the company and steers ‘em your way)

I have a phone interview on Thursday, not because I’m unhappy where I’m at, but the company I’ll be talking to does some very interesting stuff, and I know a fair number of people th ere. I’m not hoping for too much as the recruiter told me “they’re competitive” witho ut stating a number (or a range). It’s got ta be awful recruiting for tech these days, the salaries have spun out of control.. a few examples. The median tech salary in Seattle is over $250k, so many companies have decided to bite the bullet and hire new college graduates. In fact my company is looking right now. I was talking to a new college hire at a local tech behemoth last week, here’s the deal:

“ Matt is from BC and moved down to Seattle to work for **** having just completed his 4 year degree. Matt told us **** has 2k-3k interns every year, with many joining the company upon graduating.

They have their own on-line group (Facebook? Idk) and prior to accepting offers they share the details with this group of “friends” to make sure no one is being taken advantage of. Apparently, this is the new college hire package offered/accepted:

$120k base salary

$40k signing bonus

$150k worth of RSUs, spread over three years (first tranche after 12 months on the job)

****’s best in class benefits package”

Tripper > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 11:14

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I also work in recruiting, big +1 here. A lot of recruiters are just as bad though . I won’t engage with a recruiter I don’t know personally.

Textured Soy Protein > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 03/03/2020 at 11:14

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If you have relevant, recent experience that qualifies you for a job there’s a couple subtle resume tweaks that can help you get past the most basic of ageism.

1. Don’t list graduation years on your schools. But do say a specific thing you graduated with i.e. high school diploma, bachelor’s degree, etc.

2. You don’t need to list all your experience back to the very beginning. You can include the past 15 years or so and be fine.

That’s usually enough to get past people who will say things like “overqualified” or “too many years of experience.”

Someone like me will probably be able to infer what you’re trying to do , but we’re usually fine with it.

Textured Soy Protein > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 03/03/2020 at 11:16

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Not exactly, but if I think someone is a valid candidate and the manager wants to rule them out for something stupid, I will question the manager’ s reasoning for rejecting that candidate and try to point out how they're actually qualified. But my job is to fill jobs with wished people, not only fill jobs. They need to be actually good. I'll make my case heard if I think they are but I'm not here to tell managers to hire people over actual legit concerns.

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 11:24

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This is something I may need to start thinking about. Fortunately in my field of work having experience is critical, so older candidates can be prized as long as the salary requirements aren’t above market.

Textured Soy Protein > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com 03/03/2020 at 11:31

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Generally if there’s a skilled position there’s a tradeoff between does the person have enough experience to do the job and what’s the budget for the position.

Every company is different about what they ask about salary when you apply. I had to fight to remove a bunch of questions about salary history from our applications when I joined the company last year but I won’t get into that here.

For you I’d probably recommend only listing the most recent 15-20 years (if you actually have more than that) , but still include your graduation year(s). People will be able to figure out your age but as long as you’re not like onto page 5 talking about what you were doing in 1986 it’s not as big a deal.  

Hell, I’m 37 but I’ve been doing this recruiting thing for 14 years now so I’m already at the point of being a lot more experienced and higher paid than many of the candidates I’m nominally competing against.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 11:36

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I have heard things all over the map about cover letters. I write  them, even when not required, since I'd rather stand out for effort than lack of effort and it's worked out so far. But I also don't go overboard, especially when it wasn't asked. Someone I know purposely made their resume longer than it needed to be and bragged about writing a three pages cover letter.... Pretty sure 2, maybe 3 paragraphs is all you're supposed to have for a cover letter.

7:07 > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 11:37

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I’m currently navigating the job market, and my online applications have had very little response in the last 4-6 weeks. I’m trying to move to the other end of Utah , and it the first time I’ve launched myself into the job market without networking or personal recommendations or referrals. It’s a bit frustrating to say the least.

66P1800inpieces > Mid Engine 03/03/2020 at 11:42

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How do you fit into a semiconductor?

Mid Engine > 66P1800inpieces 03/03/2020 at 11:48

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fold yo urself in half, because “ semi”

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 12:15

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Until they meet me and I am older and wiser than they are and likely to know what like in, and want out of, my life. We’ll have a nice chat and they’ll tell me that they’ll be in touch.

But I’m just crabbing. Please don’t take it personally. It’s a crabby day for me anyhow. I’m happy to know that there are reasonable and sensitive folks like yourself practicing the Dark Arts of HR.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 12:18

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I’m not here to tell managers to hire people over actual legit concerns.

Certainly. It’s the ones they’re overlooking because the manager is dumb, which is what I think you were talking about when you started the post.

I’m an educator, perhaps the one field, besides retail, where ageism isn’t really a thing. Then again, the unions have the system rigged so virtually nobody my age is changing jobs anyhow; the point is largely moot because tenure.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 12:20

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And while I’m ranting, I’ll say this: as a seasoned educator, I absolutely want to be questioned about whether or not I earn my salary, whether or not I have a “real” job. Just like cops ought to want to be questioned about how much absolute power has corrupted them. We’re all on the public’s dime, after all...

someassemblyrequired > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 03/03/2020 at 12:37

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Unless you are a vet, don’t bother, at least for federal jobs. I have had friends say they solicit for a job that requires a Ph.D. or Master’s in math, and they get shortlists of people whose highest education is a GED.

fintail > Mid Engine 03/03/2020 at 12:39

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I recently went through some of the process with a local behemoth. Applied, about 6 weeks later got a phone interview which went swell, finally another month later was offered the in-person interview (apparently a big deal). Numerous communication gaps in the process, including not receiving emails and calls as advised, apparently these goofs are not unusual. Position ends up being closed and not filled, but I notice a modified position has been re-listed, debating whether or not I want to go for it.

An old co-worker works there, time from interview to hire was nearly 4 months - it appears some of these juggernauts are experiencing growing pains and maybe the HR/hiring gang are overwhelmed.    

fintail > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 12:41

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I like getting hit up by recruiters for positions that aren’t right for me - not that I wouldn’t do them, but that I couldn’t (things requiring specific credentials etc).   Apparently no ATS being used there, indeed.

Textured Soy Protein > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 03/03/2020 at 12:43

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The reason I say skip cover letters if you can is they’re yet another thing for someone on the other end of the application to have an opinion about, and since there’s nothing much substantive in cover letters, often those opinions are negative.

someassemblyrequired > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 12:48

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It might not be futile if you went to an Ivy or are under 35, but for the vast majority of people looking for a job it’s worthless (and psychologically devastating) . Too many posted positions are for poaching specific people, are going to be filled by internal hires or are just there to fulfill visa requirements. People get burnt out applying to these jobs that don’t really exist or are being posted by hiring managers who aren’t really serious.

If you are not fresh out of college, you need to network or work with a recruiting agency . Full stop.

Textured Soy Protein > 7:07 03/03/2020 at 12:48

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Pro tip for applying when relocating: many people reviewing resumes see what they believe is a non-local resume and immediately move on. There are two ways to address this, and I have a preference between them.

Option A: R emove identifying location information entirely. No address, no cities/states on previous jobs. If you don’t give locations, there’s no way for the people reviewing your resume to decide you’re not local.

Option B: Leave the location information on the resume, but right below your contact info, put something like, “ Planning to relocate to XYZ place.”

I’ve personally seen plenty of resumes like option A where my hiring managers will get interested in them and then it turns out, oh hey the candidate isn’t local but they’re planning to move here. So it can work.

But I like option B because I’m generally a fan of giving people the relevant information to make an informed decision, rather than hiding stuff that they’re going to learn eventually. I personally did this when I was trying to move across the country a couple years ago, and I had plenty of job opportunities where they’d say something to the effect of they saw I’m planning to move. 

someassemblyrequired > 66P1800inpieces 03/03/2020 at 12:49

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yep, this.  only thing that actually works if you are an external applicant.

Textured Soy Protein > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 03/03/2020 at 12:52

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Well yeah, at some point they’re going to meet you and that is another opportunity for ageism. But, what I’m getting at is with these resume tweaks you can at least help reduce the chances of getting ruled out at the earliest stage and at least get in the interview room.

My anecdotal experience is that hiring managers are much more inclined to make negative assumptions about hypothetical people on resumes than they are about real people they’ve met in person.

What I coach managers on when reviewing resumes is that they’re not hiring a resume, they’re hiring a person. A resume is something the person gives them to help them decide if they want to learn more about the person.

Similarly, at the resume stage of the game, y ou as the job candidate are just trying to prevent yourself from getting ruled out early in the process for a bad reason when you’re otherwise qualified.

Textured Soy Protein > fintail 03/03/2020 at 12:56

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Often times that’s one of two things.

A) Automated sourcing where anyone with a raw keyword hit on their resume gets an outreach message. This happens to me somewhat regularly because I’m a technical recruiter and I list the types of jobs I’ve filled. I’ll get auto-sourcing emails like, “I have an urgent need with my direct client for a Java developer!” because of this.

B) A recruiter doing something similar where it’s not fully automated but they’re kinda bulk hoovering people up into their list of prospects for outreach.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > someassemblyrequired 03/03/2020 at 12:56

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I'm a career goverment type.  The hard part is getting in initially.  Once you've got some time in, moving around, or even to different levels of government, is fairly easy.  I've worked in a variety of local, state and federal jobs, doing a localish type of government job now.

ClassicDatsunDebate > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 12:58

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Our C EO decided to apply a methodology called “Top grading” to our interviewing technique. So cringworthy. I never use it. I believe in an organic approach to interviewing and I’m probably 90% right on my ‘gut-feel’ meter when it comes to knowing if a person is a quality candidate.

Ha...maybe I should change careers and become a headhunter...lol

someassemblyrequired > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 03/03/2020 at 13:01

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Yep, absolutely. But it’s hard to get around Vet Pref, which shouldn’t be the first cut, but often is at the federal level because hiring folks don’t understand how it should be applied .

Mid Engine > fintail 03/03/2020 at 13:03

1

I know at Microsoft and Amazon if an employee “sponsors ” you in their system, you move to the top of the class. Apparently there’s a switch in the system where they vouch for you, click, boom . Also, they get a referral bonus

Textured Soy Protein > someassemblyrequired 03/03/2020 at 13:10

0

Uh, not sure what you’re basing this on but it’s mostly wrong.

This is not how workforce planning or hiring works. Job opportunities through staffing agencies are usually worse than those directly with companies, unless you’re very senior.

Here’s how workforce planning works on the most basic level.

A manager on a team requests permission to open a new job. They must provide the type of person they want to hire and the reasons why they want to make the hire. For example, at my company, which is a consulting firm, the main justification for new hires is a backlog of billable work on that team.

Once the decision makers approve the request to hire, the recruiting team posts the job and starts looking for candidates. Someone at the company reviews resumes (recruiter, manager, both, etc), phone screens and in-person interviews take place, and the team picks someone they like as their final candidate.

From there, they say “this is our person, we like them, here’s why, and here’s how much they want to be paid, can we offer them a job.” As long as they have good reasons they like the person and the desired pay is in range, the offer goes out.

Even when that candidate accepts the offer, the job posting is likely kept up until that person’s start date. So there’s this whole period of time of probably 2-3 weeks where the job is still posted just in case but there’s already an inbound new hire selected and locked down. Take a guess what happens to candidates who apply during this period: a whole lotta nothing.

When you apply for a job, you have no idea how far along in the hiring process the company is, or how many other candidates are in the running. This above all else is the biggest reason why companies don’t respond to qualified candidates.

Most often there is nothing nefarious going on like posting the job to poach a specific person or just have it up there to fulfill a requirement when actually they want to hire a foreign national on a work visa. Getting work visas in this political climate is a pain in the fucking ass. Sure, these things do occur from time to time but they are exceptions, not the usual.

Recruiting agencies are far from the way around this. They will say anything to make it seem like they want to submit you to a job that a client is fully ready willing and able to hire a candidate. Meanwhile they’re trying to sell clients at the same time they’re trying to sell you into letting you represent them. I get unsolicited resumes all the fucking time from agencies and you know what I do with them? Jack shit, with very few exceptions. We’re not going to pay a recruiting fee to an agency when we’ve not exhausted our internal recruiting efforts.

By and large, companies bring in outside recruiting firms to supplement their own efforts, as situations call for it. But those fully qualified-out opportunities through agencies are the small minority vs a bunch of BS they dangle in front of you as a candidate to get you interested in letting them dangle you in front of prospective new clients they haven’t locked down yet.

Textured Soy Protein > ClassicDatsunDebate 03/03/2020 at 13:15

0

So, the only reason I don’t like topgrading is it involves making the candidate do a bunch of work providing detailed history of themselves and generally my philosophy when hiring is don’t make candidates do extra time- consuming shit unless you absolutely have to .

That said, the only way to make a good interview is to go into it with a plan. This is something I beat managers over the head with: make a list of the skills and experience they need a candidate to have, craft questions to address these needed qualifications, take notes on the candidates’ answers, and make a hiring decision later after reviewing the notes.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 13:17

2

My anecdotal experience is that hiring managers are much more inclined to make negative assumptions about hypothetical people on resumes than they are about real people they’ve met in person.

That’s true in general, and a good point. It’s easier to think ill of people you’ve never met.

Textured Soy Protein > Mid Engine 03/03/2020 at 13:27

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You’re assuming how recruiters get frustrated without comprehending the back end of their actual job.

Speaking on all my experience, it’s very easy to skip past obviously unqualified resumes. “I’m looking for an electrical engineer. This person is a welder. Next.” It’s not that hard.

Every internal company recruiter is carrying multiple jobs they’re trying to fill, they’re keeping an eye on the flow of applicants and how many viable candidates are in progress, and then as needed they go out and search linkedin or resume databases to find people to reach out to.

There’s networking too but there’s really no back room magic glad handing that takes place. It’s a numbers game.

If they’re not getting enough applicants, all they do is f ind a bunch of people who are a keyword match, skim the resumes/profiles to make sure they look mostly on target, send them a quick message describing the company and linking them to the job description, and deal with the replies while they move on to their next task.

As for this phone interview of yours, without knowing the full specifics I’m not going to make assumptions. But a good agency recruiter would’ve tried to get some kind of salary number out of you so they can provide the client with a rough cost along with your resume. “They’re competitive” sounds like the type of answer they’d give to someone who wants to see the employer’s cards without showing their own. 

ClassicDatsunDebate > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 13:29

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Topgrading is even worse when you don’t give prior warning and during the interview you are asking for contact info of someone the candidate worked for or with, but hasn’t included in  their references.

Textured Soy Protein > ClassicDatsunDebate 03/03/2020 at 13:33

4

Personally, as a candidate, if someone did that to me unannounced in an interview I’d leave. But my job is hiring so if a company I might work at does some obviously bad hiring-related stuff during my interview, I don’t want to work there.

I once had a company that as their standard first step wanted candidates to record a 30 minute video of themselves responding to a prompt. It was like, “thanks for applying, we like your resume, now go do this video.”

I responded back that I’d be happy to do the video, but before I make that time commitment, I’d like to have a quick chat with them to learn more about the company and decide from there if I wanted to make the video. They never agreed to the call so I never did the video.

66P1800inpieces > Mid Engine 03/03/2020 at 13:42

0

fintail > Mid Engine 03/03/2020 at 14:22

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Interesting. I know a couple people at Amazon, makes me wonder if  they could “sponsor” me even if in a different department. I’ll need to look into that.

fintail > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 14:24

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Makes sense.  My most recent role is internal audit, but regulatory rather than financial.  I've been hit up for several accounting roles which I'm simply not qualified for.  That one word must set them off.  

someassemblyrequired > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 14:30

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Well virtually all my experience in this realm is from the PNW, but I will tell you from that experience (tech), a single digit percentage of jobs are actually real positions with authority to hire, with the rest being resume sinks for later recruitment use (and/or for employment based visas/green cards). That’s why applying off the street is so worthless there.

Working with (or getting to) someone who knows which positions are real is vital to a successful job search if you need something quick. Contract/recruiting agency employment is also an easier/quicker way to get into the big name tech companies and secure a corporate position .

Textured Soy Protein > someassemblyrequired 03/03/2020 at 15:23

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Do you work in recruiting or some other HR function? If not, do you have any exposure to workforce planning in your job duties?

Because I’ve got a 14 year career in both corporate and agency recruiting and this idea of yours about only a small percentage of job postings being real reads to me like you made that shit up, based on your experience as a candidate.

Having worked for more than one staffing agency, I can tell you that they are the last people who know which position is real.

Textured Soy Protein > Mid Engine 03/03/2020 at 15:27

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Let me give you the real version of this information. One of my past jobs was at an Amazon subsidiary.

Referral bonuses are real.

Referred candidates are flagged as such in the ATS and generally will get at least a phone interview with a recruiter for having been referred by an employee.

They are not automatically moved to the top of the class or otherwise ranked in any way. 

Textured Soy Protein > fintail 03/03/2020 at 15:35

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Many companies do give additional attention to employee referrals but at most it gets you shortlisted for a phone screen.

https://oppositelock.kinja.com/1842064763

Mid Engine > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 16:22

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I was inferring you’ll get at least a conversation going, otherwise you’re SOL if you’re applying blind through their website . My best friend works there, he said the interview process is fucked. Get a friend or workmate from pas t jobs to vouch for you, q uote Bezo’s commandments pretty much verbatim, and you’re pretty much a shoe in, then it’s some arcane engineering questions and the offer should come your way. He made it sound a bit surreal

Textured Soy Protein > Mid Engine 03/03/2020 at 16:32

0

The interview process has some good ideas but they go a bit overboard.

A typical interview is 6 different one-on-one sessions. There’s the hiring manager, what’s called a “ bar raiser ”, and 4 other people, usually two technical people and 2 business people who are each assigned a couple of Amazon’s leadership principles as their main topic.

Afterward there’s a debrief meeting with all these people plus the recruiter. Everybody gets a vote but the only votes that really count are the manager and bar raiser. If both of those people vote yes and everyone else votes no they can still hire the candidate, but if either the manager or bar raiser is a no then no hire. 

What your friend is saying about Bezos commandments is those leadership principles. And yes it does help to familiarize oneself with them and correctly interpret questions about them such that the answers seem acceptably Amazonian.

someassemblyrequired > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 16:48

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Yes, I was partner in a Seattle tech spinoff now in its 16th year . I did my fair share of hiring and workforce planning and was the liason to the immigration attorneys for the company .

We posted tons of jobs on our website we had no intention of filling unless a superstar applied. These would be up for years (in fact some of them probably still are even though I sold my shares and left in 2010 ) .

We were required to post specific job ads to renew/change certain visa classes - even if they were already employees. We had no intention of filling that position with someone else unless we were legally required to (and actually given the tightness of tech hiring we would have then just hired two people) .

So yeah that’s my experience - a little different than what you assumed.

Look I’ll agree that a bad recruiter/contract agency is a waste of time, but what’s the worst that can happen? They suck, well you’re out nothing and you’ve wasted very little time. They find you something, or find a position you wouldn’t have normally considered, well it’s a paycheck and a chance to prove yourself.

The time suck of shotgunning the TAS at a bunch of companies is a very real cost, and you even admit above that there’s lots of phantom positions where offers have been made.

There are better ways, and it generally involves building relationships in person. It’s only worth the investment of fighting with a TAS when you can tilt the odds heavily in your favor.

Textured Soy Protein > someassemblyrequired 03/03/2020 at 17:12

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Ok, so what you’re describing is what can happen in smaller companies where they post shit to, as the president of my company says, “go fishing.”

Your experience is not invalid but it is not representative of the overall job market.

While that may be common in startups and/or smaller companies, once companies get to any decent size number of employees, doing that quickly becomes much more trouble than it’s worth.

My company was doing that crap when I joined and this is a 500-ish employee place that has no business still being fishing, so I had to kibosh it real quick.

For the most part all of our job postings are now tied to job requisitions, i..e a manager has formally requested permission to make a hire, they’ve identified what it is they need in a candidate , have justified it to the decision makers (we’re a consulting firm so this means they have a backlog of billable work) , and the decision makers have given the go-ahead to start recruiting. From there, the goal is to fill the damn job, not collect resumes from no purpose, and it keeps getting re-reviewed to make sure it should still be open. If the work dries up or any other reason crops up that we shouldn’t still be recruiting, we take down the job posting.

This is how it’s worked in basically every company I’ve done this for and I had to implement it at this place because they weren’t even close to doing it when I got here. We’re now mostly on this but th e exception to this is some of our field jobs like construction inspectors where we’re constantly churning through them on various project assignments with different states’ DOTs, where we use those postings as catch-all inboxes for the territory and as a need comes up for something specific from that DOT we see what all came in. But there’s still hiring that takes place on those, it’s just not 1:1 mapped from job posting to headcount slot.

While there are companies do the gone fishin approach, in the overall job market, they’re very much in the minority and. I f they have real HR/recruiting teams in place, anyone decent at those functions will slap the shit out of the people who want to go fishin. Metaphorically speaking.

Mid Engine > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 03/03/2020 at 18:27

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Or start your own business, I got my contractors license and registered my business when I was 54 . When I’m between jobs I’ll pick up my tools and do handyman work, it can be lucrative and also serves as a nice break from the corporate world. The annual bond and insurance aren’t that bad and can be re couped in less than a week. Only downsides are: you’re running a business to consumer gig ( consumers can be a real pain in the ass) , and the paperwork required (filing taxes monthly, etc) is no fun but my wife handles that.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Mid Engine 03/03/2020 at 18:43

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Yes to all of that. I do work as a handyman at times and I’ve got a good reputation and people pay me good money, but it’s a small enough side hustle that I deal cash only. Good handymen are hard to come by and by “good,” I man not only skilled, but attentive to detail and conscientious.

Back in the day before I became a teacher, I set up as a handyman but figured out in the process that I am a crap businessman.

Lately, I’ve been doing side work as an academic coach  with middle schoolers in math and this has been relatively lucrative and I enjoy the relationships and I don’t have to spend an hour loading up the van ahead of a job.

Mid Engine > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 03/03/2020 at 19:01

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Yep, and it also requires problem solving skills on the go. You make a LOT more money if you’re licensed/bonded/insured than if you do it as a cash side hustle. I was making $80/hour +

BaconSandwich is tasty. > Mid Engine 03/03/2020 at 20:55

0

That's insane. And here I am earning munch less with a Master's and roughly 10 years experience. But I'm also living in a much less expensive area.

someassemblyrequired > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 21:56

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I’m actually interested to know now how many applicants you would get for a typical mid-career position . The labor market in VA is crazy tight, so I’m kinda surprised job listings (fishing or otherwise) are even remotely productive at this point. I would think it would be pretty much a 100% poaching scenario in this economy (well at least the economy as it was until two weeks ago).

M.T. Blake > Textured Soy Protein 03/03/2020 at 23:59

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I am offended. I review applicants resumes for a living!!!!

Just kidding. They are idiots.

Kidding again. They need to learn to read.

Okay it was a joke. They are well read but only book smart.

Ughhhhhh okay okay okay they are necessary to filter the BS...

:D

fintail > Textured Soy Protein 03/04/2020 at 00:45

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Hey, better than nothing, might get one past lazy disqualification.

Of course, I suspect there are also times when lazy disqualification bodes poorly/may predict  for how the rest of the firm operates.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > Textured Soy Protein 03/04/2020 at 07:55

1

Isn’t the “too many years of experience” (which I’ve seen, myself) really just code for “I’m discriminating based on age”? It just seems, in a rational world, that more experience would be better, but it’s clear “ too much” is almost worse than “not enough”.

Will write for food > Textured Soy Protein 03/04/2020 at 08:39

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I’ve done both - and finally determined that I had to move first, then start applying for jobs.

Will write for food > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 03/04/2020 at 08:40

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I have almost ten years on you - but don’t have the luxury of not working.

Will write for food > Textured Soy Protein 03/04/2020 at 08:47

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I haven’t been asked for salary history in a while, but am usually asked for my salary requirements. I am usually successful in turning the question around: “Might you be able to tell me the salary range for the position?” That keeps me from under- or over-bidding myself.

Will write for food > Textured Soy Protein 03/04/2020 at 08:57

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BTW - I really appreciate your participation in this discussion.

Will write for food > someassemblyrequired 03/04/2020 at 08:58

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Not every field is conducive to this. I’m a senior-level communications/editorial professional, and all but one of my past jobs has been the result of answering an ad.

Will write for food > someassemblyrequired 03/04/2020 at 09:02

1

I just moved out of Northern Virginia after 20 years there. Many employers recruit through job postings on Indeed, Monster, Glassdoor, etc. Most companies with federal contracts are actually prohibited from poaching - if you’ve won a contract away from an incumbent and want to hire people from the prior company, you have to hope they reach out to you.

Textured Soy Protein > someassemblyrequired 03/04/2020 at 09:16

1

The amount of applicants really depends on the supply and demand for that type of role. A mid-career civil engineer job might get 1-3 applications a week vs something like a project accountant or HR generalist we get 30 in a week.

“P oaching” doesn’t always enter the mix but there are definitely times where I’ve had to do outreach to people to get them interested. 

Textured Soy Protein > Textured Soy Protein 03/04/2020 at 09:18

1

I worked for a federal IT contractor. In the business, “incumbent capture” is a fact of life and the contractors are not sitting around waiting for incumbent workers on a project to contact them.

Contractors generally are discouraged from taking employees from another contractor who is still on the project. But if a contractor loses a chunk of work which gets handed over to another contractor, the first thing the new contractor does is contact the outgoing contractor’s people. 

Textured Soy Protein > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 03/04/2020 at 09:21

0

Yes, if not exactly age-ism, it’s definitely “I think this person is going to want too much money and/ or they will be over-qualified relative to their peers.” 

Textured Soy Protein > fintail 03/04/2020 at 09:29

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I usually caution against inferring too much about how a company operates from how its hiring process works for you as a candidate. Reason being, while it’s not all that hard to do hiring the right way, it’s also easy to fuck it up.

A lot of people are involved and inevitably many of them have their own ideas about how to do shit. It’s a constant give and take between the people who know how it’s supposed to go and the ones who have other ideas. Sometimes shit makes its way into a company’s hiring process not because it’s a good idea, but because the person who had it has the influence to make it happen regardless of merit.

Then of course it’s on the people involved in your hiring process to actually follow what they’re supposed to which is its own crapshoot. 

Textured Soy Protein > Will write for food 03/04/2020 at 10:01

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Salary negotiation is tricky because everyone does it differently.

It’s good to withhold a number if you can, but only to a point. If it’s at all avoidable when applying, do it.

My personal opinion is companies don’t need to know salary history at all to offer you a job. They should know how much they want to pay for the position and how much some other company wanted to pay you for some other job is not relevant.

I tried to remove salary history from our process entirely but there are people who have been around here a long time and outrank me who wanted that information to make decisions on offers.

The compromise was to remove the salary history from the application, ask for desired compensation, and I made the question a text input box where it’s not required to answer with a number. If someone doesn’t want to say a a number and can figure this out, they can write “negotiable” or something like that and not give a number.

Whatever they do, when I phone interview them, I’m going to ask what kind of money they’re looking for, and, because I have other people in my company who want to know something about past salary, I try to make candidates comfortable and ask in a way that’s not putting them on the spot. I say, “I see when you applied you put you want to make $__. What’s the story behind that number?” Usually that’s enough to get people to volunteer what they’re making but sometimes I have to probe a little more. But I reassure them that we don’t need to nail down a final number yet and really I just want to make sure I understand their expectations so if we want to offer them a job it’s something that meets their expectations. The benefit of explaining it this way is it’s true.

(And while this is the current HR industry best practice for talking about salary, many many many companies do not handle things this way. So it’s good to play things a little close to the vest if you can.)

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Will write for food 03/04/2020 at 10:46

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I do not expect to have that luxury either.

fintail > Textured Soy Protein 03/04/2020 at 12:50

0

From some of the gongshow workgroups I’ve been a part of and their equally goofy hiring attempts, I can anecdotally believe there’s a smoke to fire relationship. I think for many, those people who know how it’s supposed to go aren’t a part of the process. I’ve seen too much  that simply seems to be an attempt to test the patience of the applicant, kind of a game.  It can’t all be accidental idiocy.

I’ve had a couple positions at different employers lately be closed without a hire - makes me wonder about who does the planning in some of these new age juggernauts. I have to glibly joke once again that I am astounded there aren’t more “incidents” in the workplace these days, given the amount of weaponry out there, and socio-economic issues.  I suppose that’s a big worry of HR.

Future next gen S2000 owner > Textured Soy Protein 03/04/2020 at 13:01

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Rant/

I recently had an interview lined up for a job I was well qualified for and wanted in a desirable location. I get a call to set up a phone interview. Two hours before said interview, recruiter person calls to reschedule with a flimsy excuse that something came up.

Fine, reschedule the interview. Waiting patiently by phone at new time and nothing. Get an email two days later about the position no longer be hired or hired someone and they’ll keep my resume on file.

I read a bunch about employees ghosting on new employers. This is wh y. Potential employees submit to a black box and hear nothing back or are routinely ghosted by the new company. This is a two way street people!

End rant/

Textured Soy Protein > fintail 03/04/2020 at 13:20

0

So, there’s a relatively new concept in the HR/recruiting world: that companies should try to provide a good experience to candidates for jobs. Shocking, I know.

A good rule of thumb with dumb shit you experience in a company’s hiring process is that while many things you experience are stupid, usually only the things that require you to jump through some kind of hoop are intentional. The rest are incompetence/ignorance.

For example, before I joined my company, the online applications were in this old crappy recruiting software that was a clunky experience in general, but there were additional layers of questions the company had added because certain senior leaders insisted on making candidates jump through those hoops. Namely, detailed salary history of multiple previous jobs, and references.

When I came in and got approval to junk that old recruiting software, one of my top goals was to make the application process as easy as possible for candidates.

Not only are references no longer required, they’re not even optional. We don’t need a reference list to decide to phone interview someone and it’s a hassle for them to go find their references and copy & paste their info into some web form.

I also wanted to ditch salary questions entirely but had to fall back to only asking candidates for their desired salary because more than one person was uncomfortable waiting to find this out until the phone interview stage . But I got a little sly and made that field a text, rather than numeric, input box. So if candidates figure it out, they can totally enter “negotiable” or something else that’s a non-answer.

In the course of fighting to ditch salary questions and generally make these applications as easy as possible, a certain senior person who I don’t feel like mentioning by title but is a major idiot, every time I tried to explain the earth-shattering idea of providing candidates a good experience, responded , “if they’re serious about wanting a job, they should have no problem doing anything we ask .”

I wanted to throw this person through the window when they said this. We’re at historically low unemployment and even lower in skilled fields like engineering. Candidates absolutely give up on applying to jobs when the applications are too cumbersome and employers can ill aff ord to do anything that will discourage them from applying.

But unfortunately many people involved in hiring have this attitude. Not only are they not thinking about creating a good experience, they think they have all the power in the situation and want to use it against the candidate.

But again, usually that attitude manifests itself only in additional layers of crap that you have to do. Otherwise, they just don’t have a good plan. 

fintail > Textured Soy Protein 03/04/2020 at 13:45

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That’s something I’ve noticed as I have completed some applications - only one asked for a reference, and only a couple salary related questions (for one I put “negotiable”) . Maybe that’s progress in itself.

I think the “all the power” thing is real, indeed. And when the role remains unfilled 8 months later, no doubt they believe it is because of unreasonable applicants, not a boorish employer. I’ve also seem some postings where the simple job description was so curt and related verbiage unpleasant that I just kept scrolling. I think corporate culture might shine through in this way. Applicants for most roles requiring any education or credentials can be somewhat picky these days. If you want great candidates, don’t be an asshole.

Maybe you need to start writing material to train others in your field - you seem to get it more than many.

Frustrated > Textured Soy Protein 03/04/2020 at 22:48

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I get tired of taking cognitive behavioral assessments. I am terrible at them and I really don't think they truly assess if I can do the job. Can anyone really answer 50 questions in 12 minutes correctly? Or even half? I don't need to do complex math problems to do my job!

ranwhenparked > Textured Soy Protein 03/04/2020 at 23:33

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Most likely, nobody’s reviewing your resume at all . My favorite one was when I got an auto-reject email on Sunday night at 10pm, saying I wasn’t qualified for essentially the same job I had been doing for several years. Called a senior manager at the company, who I knew, on Monday, and ended up being hired anyway. Nobody ever brought up the fact that the applicant tracking system somehow screened me out initially and I never would have been hired if I hadn’t had a contact who was willing  to force me through.

SHARPSPEED > Textured Soy Protein 03/05/2020 at 02:22

0

As someone currently unemployed, this is both sombering and relie ving.

Textured Soy Protein > ranwhenparked 03/05/2020 at 07:21

0

I mentioned this in another comment thread: no  applicant tracking system is set up by default to automatically reject candidates. Someone at the company had to decide to turn on those filters. The people setting up the filters often do so in a way that auto rejects some candidates who shouldn’t be.

BUT.

Just because some companies do use these filters, don’t generalize that they are in place at the majority of companies. Because they’re not.

Textured Soy Protein > Frustrated 03/05/2020 at 09:09

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I hate these for two reasons.

If it’s presented to candidates as part of the application process, it’s making them go through a whole lot of hoop jumping for nothing more than the chance to be considered by the company. If for some reason the company feels these assessments are necessary to make hiring decisions, they should at least wait until candidates are deeper into the hiring process. Not only is it less painful to a candidate to be presented with the assessment, say, after a phone interview, the company is most assuredly losing out on candidates who get to the assessment part of the application and say fuck this test nevermind I’m not finishing my application.

But, I don’t think these assessments should be used in making hiring decisions, because the people reviewing them are not usually trained psychological professionals or otherwise qualified to evaluate the assessments, and inevitably the people using the assessment results are evaluating them with their own, probably bad, biases. And I say they’re probably bad biases because the type of person who wants to use psych profiles in hiring is a sociopath and likely has many bad ideas.