Morning Shift's Neutral Today - How Would You Save Harley?

"MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner" (montegoman562) 03/02/2020 at 17:00 • Filed to: Harley-Davidson, They Won't Do It Though

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So I expected a lot more FP attacks for this recommendation, but I put it out there because I think it’s a good idea.

They asked if you were CEO how would you save Harley?

My initial comment:

The only way to truly reset a company is a drastic, drastic departure.

The combination of electric bikes + (again, drastic departure) release a legit sport bike. Like go after the CBR1000RR-R or something. (Just include a 4th R and you should win!)

If you want to jump start the brand in a new direction. Do it. Build a race bike, throw cash at the problem to change the perception with a legit race team.

A new direction for the brand needs just that - a new direction. You can keep building the old rumble bikes to keep income coming in from those, but you can’t take a new direction if you’re staying on the same road.

Awful/fast photoshop of a Honda CBR1000RR-R FireBlade

Think about how to radically reset a company. Sure this is an awful usage of resources, but it could change everything which is exactly what’s needed to survice.

Like the most of you, I really don’t care if they survive and I don’t ride motorcycles (just water ones/PWCs ). It’s just about the thought experiment of it.

Sure they could make an adventure bike and enter it in Dakar but it’s not extreme enough to reset their image.

Thoughts?

HammerheadFistpunch > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/02/2020 at 17:07

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Maybe they should just drop the bike nonsense and make restaurants only.

Chariotoflove > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/02/2020 at 17:10

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Wel l step one is the old formula Lee Iacocca distilled: make affordable cars that people want to buy. They may be in the process of  doing that already.  Of course, building the bikes is just the first step. How do they make people want to buy them?  

Textured Soy Protein > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/02/2020 at 17:11

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Free pair with every bike purchased. Problem solved!

Future next gen S2000 owner > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/02/2020 at 17:12

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Build a better cruiser and a naked. That seems to be where people are going. Gotta dump the V-twin rumbly nonsense if they want to survive.

Mercedes Streeter > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/02/2020 at 17:13

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They had that when they owned Buell and MV Agusta, then had no problem ruining it. They know they need change in their future, they’re just too stupid to make it work for them.

I’m not sure the core Harley brand needs a hard reset, but maybe they can learn a thing or two from the Japanese and have subsidiary brands that do what the core brand doesn’t.

CobraJoe > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/02/2020 at 17:15

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I was suggesting to keep one “old school harley” around, just like how Cadillac keeps the Escalade around. It’s not in high demand, but it is one of the few things they were known for.

Other than that, make some cheap stuff that anyone can buy (even if it’s an electric mountian bike), and do something that gets some attention.

I like the race team idea, but I’d say to take it a step further: Cheat.

Well, creative rule reading anyways. Add some little device that gives an advantage without completely breaking the rules, and then publicly get caught.

Depending on how clever the “cheat” is, it could get you some great publicity for really cheap.  

slipperysallylikespenguins > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/02/2020 at 17:19

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Harley just needs to downsize it’s sales estimates. They are still selling over 200k bikes a year, with about 140K selling in the U.S. In 2017 consumers bought 472k street bikes. So Harley has over a 25% market share in the overall US market and nearly a 50% market share in the heavyweight category.

The only reason people are freaking out about their sales is that they are down from the 2007 record year, just like most manufacturers. Harley could sell 100k of their bikes a year for the next decade without any real changes and it would be considered a massive success as a motorcycle company if expectations weren’t so high. Shareholders and the press just want growth for the sake of growth and that is not sustainable for a niche hobby company.

I think introducing all these new products that very few people asked for and even fewer will pay the Harley premium for will ultimately do more harm than if they just reset their sales targets. The idea of them continuing to sell 200-300k bikes a year is insane, the market just can’t support it.

MonkeePuzzle > HammerheadFistpunch 03/02/2020 at 17:20

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stop selling bikes, focus on the ed hardy-like gaudy clothing line

jimz > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/02/2020 at 17:22

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The way they’re branching out now is fine, they just should have started about 5 years ago.

Spanfeller is a twat > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/02/2020 at 17:24

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I think HD would benefit from making cheaper bikes with smaller motors. A Rebel 300 competitor comes to mind. HD’s cheapest bike is a 750cc for 7.6k...

In the high end, r eviving Buell is kind of inconceivable, perhaps. B ut I’d rush to get the Pan Americana into dealerships... ADVs are the crossovers of bikes.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > Textured Soy Protein 03/02/2020 at 17:27

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That’s not a chrome plated .357 Magnum. 

Azrek > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/02/2020 at 17:29

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Culture has to be embraced as well as changed. Too many folks see some tattooed up rough looking biker on a Harley. That doesn’t bode well for those who just want a cool fun bike to ride.

They can’t chase away their current audience as that what influences them, but they need to accept who is currently their unexploited audience. Too many companies have aliened their past audience thinking a new unknown group will save them (Read: Star Wars ).

It is a tough gut check, but they need to look at how other companies reinvented themselves. A good place is the discussions on Ford vs Ferrari. The company knew it had to change, but wasn’t sure how. 

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/02/2020 at 17:30

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What HD needs is colors.

Stop making long lines of black bikes.

Offer green, blue, yellow, orange (they do that already), red, dark red.

It’s a small change, but a small changes are relatively cheap. 

Chuckles > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/02/2020 at 17:30

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Affordable entry level products would be a good start. I’m just getting into riding, and none of their products feel attainable. The absolute cheapest new Harley starts at $7,600. I’ve never paid that much for a car in my life. If I wanted a bike with that kind of styling, a Honda Rebel 500 starts at $6,200. The Rebel 300 is only $4,500. Or I could get a CB500X for $6,700. Plus Honda has a whole line of 125cc bikes that interest me. And that’s just one other brand.

Harley just doesn't make anything that appeals to me at the prices they sell their bikes at.

Textured Soy Protein > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles 03/02/2020 at 17:32

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I guarantee more Harley owners are more excited about a fresh pair of Nike Monarchs than they are about compensating for their small penii with handguns. That’s what the bikes are for. 

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Azrek 03/02/2020 at 17:38

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Too many folks see some tattooed up rough looking biker on a Harley. That doesn’t bode well for those who just want a cool fun bike to ride.

You meet the nicest people on a Honda...

Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/02/2020 at 17:38

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Obviously, they need to make a Harley crossover.

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/02/2020 at 17:42

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Their new bikes built with the water cooled OHC motor look really nice. The Bronx is a cool streetfighter that I’d consider in a few years. Maybe that new water cooled engine (Revolution Max) finds its way onto a cruiser frame too.

Pickup_man > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/02/2020 at 17:54

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To start I would focus hard on the Sportster line which at this point is downright ancient. The Sportster should be Harley’s bread and butter, it’s the right size and styling to compete with the Bonneville’s , Z900's , Bolts, Ducati Scramblers etc, but it’s just downright ancient and so far behind it isn’t even funny. I would keep the styling generally the same because at this point it’s iconic, but give it a modern aluminum chassis, better suspension and brakes, liquid cool it and go to a 60° V-twin a la the V-rod. Then do what Harley does better than seemingly anyone, diversify the platform. Make a Sporty one, a Cafe , a Scrambler , a traditional Bobber , a flat tracker, etc. The Sportster is an iconic bike and should be the standard for a sporty yet traditional American motorcycle, so make it that way. (BTW the new “Custom” concept bike based off the Bronx platform is nearly what I’m looking for)

The new Softtail lineup is actually pretty solid for the more traditional cruiser crowd, which I absolutely think Harley should keep options in this segment as very few other manufacturers do. This line is honestly fine being air cooled however I would update to their oil cooled setup immediately for more performance, and change the line over to liquid at the next refresh. I would also drop the counltless “models” and structure it more as a couple of base models, and accessorize from there.

The Touring line needs to go liquid cooled ASAP. Harley owned this market forever and let the line languish a little because they could. Indian just took a shot across the bow with their new Challenger and I honestly think they are going to pull a lot of Harley customers with that bike. I still think the big American touring bike is a viable, although shrinking segment. Big touring bikes will always be in demand and some of us just like American touring bikes. I’ve ridden a handful of Goldwings and while objectively better they just don’t do it for me, when the time comes I was eyeing the Victory Cross Country hard, but now my money is firmly set with Indian.

The PanAmerica looks great, make it perform and keep it price competitive and I think it will go over well.

The Bronx, eh, I like the overall idea of a Streetfighter styled bike but it’s a big departure for a company with little recognition in this area . Make this a version of my new and adaptable Sportster lineup to start, market it, develop it and grow from there. Build a little recognition before you dive in head first. But, this one’s already getting released, in which case, market and push it hard, hope it bring people in and sells well.

Sport bikes. This is a tricky one. Option 1: Buell. Buell has some recognition and people keep asking for a revival. I’m still ok with Buell and the Sportster sharing a common engine platform, but co- develop it so that Buell isn’t saddled with an under performing engine in an exceptional chassis. Option 2: Harley has experience in road racing, mainly from the 80's and 90's which is an era of sportbikes that is starting to see huge increases in desirability and interest . Build a proper fully faired sports bike, again off the basic Sportster platform, make it just a touch retro, and push that heritage. Start there and continue to develop.

Electrics: Get those little electric scoots to market and start developing urban electric bikes . Beef up that electric mountain bike concept they have, make it one step shy of a dirt bike. IMO this is a segment I see growing fast. This whole post is getting long so essentially just start developing and pushing urban electric bikes/scooters.

I’ve got more but this post is getting long and it’s the end of the work day. Sort notes, keep prices competitive, support and market to all demographics of the bike world, keep up the support for the custom builds, and make sure dealers are all on board. 

Pickup_man > Future next gen S2000 owner 03/02/2020 at 18:01

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Nah, V-twins are perfectly suited to cruisers and large touring bikes. Just modernize the thing a little. Overhead cams, liquid cooled, maybe a V angle that doesn’t inhibit power. V-twins are also fine for nakeds and sporty bikes too, just drop the overweight under- powered narrow angle lumps.

MeatSaber > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/02/2020 at 18:06

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Modernize and price them mo re competitively .

Very few of the younger crop of riders would ever consider buying a 45k bagger to begin with and especially not if it has less on paper than the competition.

Of course they can keep some of the old style hogs around for people that want to experience it, but it’s going to get worse and worse as the boomers retire and stop riding.

The Pan-American and Live-Wire seem like a step in the right direction, as long as the youth is willing to accept HD as a brand. They have a very defined culture that wouldn’t be easy to change. 

The y have their work cut out for them.

BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/02/2020 at 18:07

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See - I think even *thinking* about building motorcycles is like planning your own funeral.

If they want to be successful, they need to think ahead. Move into a niche that has the chance to be successful, either globally or in the US. Internationally, that’s probably cheap transport that’s also reliable and aspirational. In the US it’s...literally anything other than motorcycles. Ride- share Vespa-like scooters. Become a rental company in tourist locations. Rent bikes to Uber-Eats. Whatever - but motorcycles, all motorcycles, are a dying market in the US .

slipperysallylikespenguins > MeatSaber 03/02/2020 at 18:22

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Their “baggers” start at 19K, 45k is for their very limited CVO line that they sell very few of. A streetglide touring bike starts at a whopping 11K less than the Livewire.

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/02/2020 at 18:26

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Two words: Eric Buell.

/kidding

/not kidding 

Future next gen S2000 owner > Pickup_man 03/02/2020 at 18:26

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That’s a better way to say it. The twin is fine, the lumpy, loud, vibrating mess of an engine style that Harley uses should go.

slipperysallylikespenguins > Pickup_man 03/02/2020 at 18:27

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Have you looked into the Moto Guzzi MGX-21 or the upcoming BMW R18 Bagger with its big 1800cc boxer?

Also the BMW K 1600 B.

dumpsterfire! > slipperysallylikespenguins 03/02/2020 at 18:29

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There is too much common sense there. Just try convincing Wall Street that stability and consistency are enough.

EL_ULY > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/02/2020 at 18:30

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sell the company to Geely and user their billions to build rad shit instead of boardroom crap to please the investors 

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/02/2020 at 18:42

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I want to say ‘bring back Buell and the Buell Blast’, but that is a more risky proposition that will raise costs.

Maybe the best way forward is to expand their Street line and make better use of their operations in India for building and selling a bike outside of the traditional HD.

jimz > Textured Soy Protein 03/02/2020 at 18:43

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No, too many Harley guys are boomers and  would burn those shoes because Kaepernick.

jimz > Pickup_man 03/02/2020 at 18:44

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I’m pretty sure the Sportster dies after this model year.

jimz > Snuze: Needs another Swede 03/02/2020 at 18:45

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Only Gold Wing riders, they’re chill. The rest are dickhead squids on CBRs.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/02/2020 at 18:47

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I’d get back into the scooter game and try to break into the international markets. Harley’s selling to a dying segment. Not only are the Harley generation getting old, the motorcycle market here isn’t growing. Only enthusiasts are buying bikes and with a recession fewer are able to afford toys.

If Harley can start selling en masse to crowded markets like Europe, India, and Asia where bikes are considered a crucial form of transportation it might save them. They can start making stable profits that can be used as a launching point to figure out a new brand image for the 21st century.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > HammerheadFistpunch 03/02/2020 at 18:48

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They're basically an apparel line at this point.

jimz > Pickup_man 03/02/2020 at 18:48

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Tuning a V-twin for low RPM power makes overhead cams a pointless expense. An under square engine simply does not need them, full stop.

Just because someone else does it doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do. According to Cycle World my street glide does 0-60 in under 5 seconds. That’s quicker than the majority of cars on the road, and I’ve never once thought “this bike needs to be faster.”

jimz > Future next gen S2000 owner 03/02/2020 at 18:49

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The M8 is 80% counterbalanced. Mine has a bit of jiggle at idle but no vibration underway.

jimz > Mercedes Streeter 03/02/2020 at 18:52

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Buell wasn’t some sort of god bike. Erik Buell suffered from the same kind of “engineer-itis” that infests German car companies- the mindset that “good engineering” means “making things as weird and complicated as possible.”

jimz > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles 03/02/2020 at 18:53

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They have tons of colors. Way more color options than most other makers. It’s just the wannabe pirates buying black bikes because of Sons of Anarchy.

Mercedes Streeter > jimz 03/02/2020 at 18:55

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Buell wasn’t a god bike, but it’s not like Harley did them any favours, either. Harley wanted Buell to be the starter brand. The idea is that you’d buy a Buell, ride that for a little, then graduate up to the big hogs of Harley. They never really wanted Buell to have too much of its own identity.

The reason why I brought up Buell is because MontegoMan brought up sport bikes. Harley had that twice with Buell and MV and managed to screw up both.

TheJWT > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/02/2020 at 19:05

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I think they should create a new sub- brand for bikes which keeps the American- ness, but are actually competitive with Japanese and Euro bikes. (like Buell, except without running it into the ground). Modernize their current offerings but scale back the production and devote a good chunk of their factory to making new bikes. I think that trying to shoehorn the Harley name and image into electric bikes/ adventure bikes/ etc... isn’t the right way to go.

Wacko > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/02/2020 at 19:06

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Personally I think they are a lost cause at this point and they only have themselves to blame.

Too expensive, too loud and too slow. And they only catered to one demographic and that demographic is dying.

Textured Soy Protein > jimz 03/02/2020 at 19:18

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Problem solved again.

just-a-scratch > jimz 03/02/2020 at 19:29

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Counterpoints: Africa Twin, Monkey Bike, CB series, and Super Cub riders are generally not bad.

I used to ride a CBR though, and I’ll agree that there are a lot of idiots on sport bikes, and I can’t necessarily rule myself out of all that.

just-a-scratch > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/02/2020 at 19:34

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The image suggests that what the motor company needs is some serious badge engineering with stuff like Hondaley Davidson or Yamaharleys. Going to the Japanese would seem antithetical to many, perhaps Harley DavidS&S could work.

[OK, this is just an excuse to write Yamaharley. That’s just too funny to me.]

bob and john > TheJWT 03/02/2020 at 19:39

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they tried that TWICE and didnt make it. Once with buell, and then they owned MV-agusta.

what a shitshow that was

shop-teacher > Pickup_man 03/02/2020 at 20:05

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I would love love love a modernized Scrambler style Sportster.

shop-teacher > jimz 03/02/2020 at 20:10

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Ten years ago.

TheJWT > bob and john 03/02/2020 at 20:10

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That’s true but both of those took a back seat to Harley’s main offerings. I’m saying they need to focus a majority of their resources on it and have their existing bikes under the Harley brand become more of a specialty niche. Whether they could actually pull that off is questionable...

shop-teacher > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/02/2020 at 20:12

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A sport bike line would be a great idea. They really just need to sell better cheaper bikes. I like a bike that's the size of a Sportster, but it needs a 20% cut to both weight and price.

bob and john > TheJWT 03/02/2020 at 20:35

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except you know they wont because sports bikes and ADVs dont have NEAR the profit margins they want and require building actually good bikes.

I want to see them do well in those area. the livewire looks cool as s hit, but its going to be 40K cad.  which, no. 

Nom De Plume > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/02/2020 at 20:40

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A M F

Redux

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 03/02/2020 at 21:07

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T hey need to work on the name if they bring that out. Something that invokes the Harley Davidson history of power and underdog status

how about the Harley Davidson Power Bottom?

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard 03/02/2020 at 21:09

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Introducing the new Harley  Vers. It’ll do whatever you need it to.

DipodomysDeserti > jimz 03/02/2020 at 22:30

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What about those of us that only own old, broken Hondas?

The Ghost of Oppo > Wacko 03/02/2020 at 22:34

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And they neglected their sporty, innovative brand for 10 years and then  killed it off completely as soon as the economy went south.

The Ghost of Oppo > JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t 03/02/2020 at 22:35

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Eric Buell  the engineer > Eric Buell the business man 

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > slipperysallylikespenguins 03/02/2020 at 22:49

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that and crazy huge dealerships. i went in one @5 years ago. Between sales and service, I think i counted 14 employees.

pip bip - choose Corrour > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/03/2020 at 02:44

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i wouldn’t bother

just let it go

Snuze: Needs another Swede > jimz 03/03/2020 at 08:19

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Hey! I resemble that remark!

jimz > DipodomysDeserti 03/03/2020 at 08:20

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You may be the nicest people, but if they’re broken then you’re not really on a Honda, are you? ;)

jimz > Snuze: Needs another Swede 03/03/2020 at 08:28

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riding a sport bike doesn’t automatically make one a squid.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > jimz 03/03/2020 at 08:38

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I was never t-shirt and shorts stupid, but I wasn’t too smart either. 

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > slipperysallylikespenguins 03/03/2020 at 09:20

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you take your logic pack it up and get it off the internet - it has no place here!

lol, you’re right though and I hate that no one is talking about the legit sales numbers.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Pickup_man 03/03/2020 at 09:36

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Wise commentary from someone who clearly actually understands the motorcycle industry. Buell would be a good move, but you gotta admit if they went all in on a HD sportbike it would radically change things.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 03/03/2020 at 09:38

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wow, what a name!

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Azrek 03/03/2020 at 09:40

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A radically different new face (like a sportbike) would have the potential to change the culture. 

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Mercedes Streeter 03/03/2020 at 09:51

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If they could scale back the BS leather brand at the HD dealer and split off Buell and/or MV into a sub brand at their locations it could work. I’m just trying to think of an internal culture change - and a sportbike harley would be really different.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles 03/03/2020 at 09:53

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A wide color palette wouldn’t hurt but it won’t change the culture of the brand.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > The Ghost of Oppo 03/03/2020 at 09:55

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Unfortunate reality of lots of engineers to be honest.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Chuckles 03/03/2020 at 10:15

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Would definitely be a good option.

My proposal was to change the culture. Full change with a drastic departure. I think a Sportbike would do it, but also putting out some little/attainable bikes would help.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Chariotoflove 03/03/2020 at 10:16

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That’s t he culture change that’s needed. You can’t wipe away decades of Hell’s Angels and the Sons of Anarchy show. But if your “halo” bike is a sportbike you’ve changed the face of your brand.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > CobraJoe 03/03/2020 at 10:20

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They actually have insanely priced electric balance bikes. Can you imagine buying a 5-7 year old (per their website target price range) an electric balance bike for $650-$695?!

lol, i like the way you think for racing! Cheaters get the best press.

Chuckles > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/03/2020 at 10:21

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I think that part of changing the culture involves changing the client base. You can't bring in a lot of younger riders if they can't afford any of your products. 

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > MeatSaber 03/03/2020 at 10:22

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M aybe they can just take the live-wire body style and slip an ICE in there.

The “youths” will follow something modern/different if given the opportunity.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > just-a-scratch 03/03/2020 at 10:23

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What about a Davisaki?

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > EL_ULY 03/03/2020 at 10:24

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MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > pip bip - choose Corrour 03/03/2020 at 10:24

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That’s not the game!

Chariotoflove > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/03/2020 at 10:26

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It sounds like the outgoing CEO was trying to do the transformation. It will be interesting to see if t he next can finish. 

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Chuckles 03/03/2020 at 10:26

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Very true.

Others suggested a sub brand. Nothing wrong with that idea if they can scale back all the B.S. at their dealers to carve out space for it. They could also put the Sportbike under that sub brand, but I think if they want to change the current one they have to REALLY change it. Subtlety is not going to cut it.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Chariotoflove 03/03/2020 at 10:27

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I often see the same thing with CEO’s and high level sports  coaches. They need time to make change things and making lasting impacts. Too often they’re forced out before they had time to make all the changes needed.

Chuckles > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/03/2020 at 10:31

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I dislike the sub brand idea. You're trying to change the image of HD, and you aren't going to do that by selling bikes that are badged as something else. 

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/03/2020 at 10:51

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What about rainbow liveries?

Azrek > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/03/2020 at 10:57

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Right, but the sport bike or cafe racer can’t be so different that the old school Harley riders think you are betraying them. 

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Azrek 03/03/2020 at 11:45

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I think as long as they keep the rumblers around they’ll probably do fine. The old guy on the old style harley will probably say something like “why the fuck would harley build a crotch rocket?” and then also say say “well, if they’re gonna ride a crotch rocket, it better be a harley crotch rocket”

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Chuckles 03/03/2020 at 11:46

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True, that won’t happen.

Though if they are propped up by a positive secondary brand it might not matter about changing the perception of HD, they’ll be taking all the profits from the sub-brand.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles 03/03/2020 at 11:46

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Now we’re talking.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/03/2020 at 12:03

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I want a Robot Unicorn 30,000 dollar  Dresser.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles 03/03/2020 at 12:13

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Customer is always right! Get it built boys!

Chariotoflove > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/03/2020 at 12:27

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Truth.  American investors tend to think quarterly, so boards do also.  Too many quarters without results are not tolerated well.

slipperysallylikespenguins > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/03/2020 at 14:06

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It is kind of amusing that every one is proclaiming the death of Harley when they sell more than twice the street bikes as any other company in the US. Some other figures as of 2016 I believe:

Harley has 60% of all women riders in the US.

The average age of a NEW Harley buyer is 49 , a bit high but they also have the most money. The average age of all motorcycle owners regardless of brand is actually 47.

Only 25% of riders are between 25 and 40. This is affecting every company as young people just aren’t as interested in motorcycles as much.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > slipperysallylikespenguins 03/03/2020 at 14:59

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You’re right. Sales numbers and targets are not what truly defines a companies success.

I’ve been preaching about everyone freaking out about demand for autos in China.

Basically the government opened up the market for sales and people jumped in deep. It was like going to a market that had zero cars and opening the flood gates. at a point everyone buys their first car. Then it levels out for replacements going forward. We’re leveling out and everyone says the C hinese markets are failing.

Nauraushaun > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 03/03/2020 at 22:38

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I think that would discount their only real strength which is brand recognition. The people who like fat loud Harleys wouldn’t go for it, either would the people who like sport bikes. May as well start a new company at that point.

Maybe they just need a volume seller like the Cayenne which kept Porsche afloat as a one trick pony. Not sure it’s as easy for them though as it was for Porsche. Bear in mind though that Porsche went under Volkswagen and the cayenne was a modified toureg, so maybe that’s the answer.

Pickup_man > slipperysallylikespenguins 03/05/2020 at 11:09

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I’m aware of them but haven’t looked into them much. Good  looking bikes, but I’ve never been a fan of the boxer engines or sideways V’s in bikes for some reason. 

Pickup_man > jimz 03/05/2020 at 11:10

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That will make me sad, isn’t Sport ster one of the longest continuous bike models?

jimz > Pickup_man 03/05/2020 at 11:17

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one of; the FL (touring) line started back in 1941 though it’s been completely redesigned a number of times.

The biggest issue looming for the Sporty is emissions; the uni-Evo isn’t going to be able to meet stricter emissions standards and they’re not going to put money in a new powertrain for it. My bet is that they replace it with a new bike built around the Revo Max engine like this one:

and put the Sportster name on one or more models.  Whether they keep the current Sporty going until that one arrives is the question. 

Pickup_man > jimz 03/05/2020 at 11:55

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Just because something is “good enough” doesn’t mean it can’t be better. At this point so many other companies have used overhead cams that Harley (and surprisingly Yamaha) are the outliers.  

I’m not dumping on push rod engines, they clearly work and can make power in the right applications, but if there weren’t some advantages, and if the expense truly was pointless I’d be amazed at the number of companies that have chose to develop them over the years. 

Pickup_man > jimz 03/05/2020 at 12:02

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I’m good with that plan, the name has just been around long enough that I’d hate to see it go, and would be surprised to see Harley kill it. The current platform is really old at this point and I don’t see it hanging on much longer. 

jimz > Pickup_man 03/05/2020 at 12:18

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the point is that going to overhead cams would not make it “better.” The limiting factor in these engines is valve diameter. With an undersquare engine, for a given displacement you’re stuck with smaller intake and exhaust valves. Moving the camshaft up into the head and ditching the pushrods wouldn’t make it breathe any better. You’ve added a lot of cost for no benefit whatsoever. Plus, with pushrod engines it’ s piss easy to implement automatic valve lash adjustment, you just make the tappets (lifters) do double duty.

I know Indian’s new engine is OHC, but given it’s over-square and much higher revving tells me Polaris has other applications in mind for it besides baggers, while the M8 is and will always only be in lard-assed cruisers and baggers.  

Pickup_man > jimz 03/05/2020 at 12:58

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That all makes sense, so why then (genuine question) do you think that so many other makes have gone OHC on their big V-twins? Kawasaki, Suzuki , Honda, Guzzi, Victory (Polaris again), have all done it and none of those twins were ever used in anything other than big cruiser applications.

I guess my biggest disappointment with Harley is their lack of ability to breathe, which I agree has less to do with pushrods and far more to do with their compact single throttle body design. My daily ride is a Yamaha Warrior which is also a large air- cooled push- rod V- twin, which both pulls hard at low revs, and continues to pull hard all the way to the top (5K), where as the majority of other large pushrod twins I’ve ridden start running out of breath around 3,500-4k, and fall flat on their face by 5k. After experiencing a big twin that effectively does both it’s hard to get excited about anything that doesn’t. 

The new P ower P lus was confirmed to be a Victory develpment project that was tweaked and given the Indian name after the shuttering of Victory. While I wouldn’t be surprised to see Polaris adapt it to other uses, it does give me the impression that it was intended to be a big cruiser engine from the get go.

jimz > Pickup_man 03/05/2020 at 13:07

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That all makes sense, so why then (genuine question) do you think that so many other makes have gone OHC on their big V-twins? Kawasaki, Suzuki, Honda, Guzzi, Victory (Polaris again), have all done it and none of those twins were ever used in anything other than big cruiser applications.

you’d have to ask them. Maybe their marketing/engineering targets dictated it, maybe they were sharing parts with other engines, maybe it’s just the way they do things. In practice, it didn’t really matter since all of those bikes combined sold at basically a fraction of the volume Harley was moving.

edit: and chances are their engines aren’t as under-square as Harley’s big twins.