Good Morning, Oppo

"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn) 02/19/2020 at 09:35 • Filed to: good morning oppo, wingspan, Planelopnik

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“I’ll take ‘Golden Age of Aviation flying boats’ for $1,000, Alex.”

“It was the largest, heaviest, and most powerful flying boat in the world when it was produced by the Dornier company of Germany in 1929.”

“What is the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ?”

This is not a mad scientist in his laboratory. It’s the engineer at his station on the Do X. It was powered by twelve 9-cylinder radial engines, six pushing, six pulling.

Notchback88 > ttyymmnn 02/19/2020 at 09:44

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I wonder what the aerodynamics of pull props’ wake mixing into the push props looked like. Surely that caused inefficiencies .

ttyymmnn > Notchback88 02/19/2020 at 09:48

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I’m not an aerodynamicist, so I can’t say for sure. But it was a fairly common arrangement in that era when aircraft designers had bigger dreams than the engines of the day could handle. 

Ash78, voting early and often > Notchback88 02/19/2020 at 09:48

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I don’t think efficiency was king at that point. This was the era of overkill.

Can you even imagine, just 26 years after the first powered flight (in basically a motorized kite) that people would go for a ride in this?

Say what you want about the space age or the jet age....this particular era was most fascinating to me.

facw > ttyymmnn 02/19/2020 at 09:52

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As far as Seaplanes over NYC go, Cape Air got approval last week to start offering commercial service from Boston’s long wharf to East 23rd Street in Manhattan (h ome to Manhattan’s well-worn Marine Aviation terminal, where I have never actually seen a seaplane):

None of the stories I’ve read have identified what equipment Cape Air will be flying, but presumably some boring float-plane rather than a cool flying boat. Tickets are expected to be $320-350, which isn’t too bad at all considering how much better the NYC location is than LGA or JFK (Logan is closer in Boston, so there’s less benefit there) .

In any event, if the route is successful, I’d like to encourage Cape Air to invest in some Be-200s for this service:

Sadly I think it would be a bit tricky to make a float plane version of the electric plane they are buying:

Notchback88 > Ash78, voting early and often 02/19/2020 at 09:53

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Well, I may take back what I said, now that I started to think about it. There are a few opposing-propeller turboprops out there, such as the AN-22 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-22 )

Of course, the blades are a lot closer to each other, which would prevent a fair bit eddies. 

ttyymmnn > facw 02/19/2020 at 09:56

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Interesting. My money is on the Twin Otter, and this would be more of an air taxi service than a full on airline.

Still, that Beriev would be cool. How about an A320? It’s a floatplane. 

Cé hé sin > ttyymmnn 02/19/2020 at 09:56

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I hope they got a bulk discount on all those engines.

facw > Notchback88 02/19/2020 at 09:58

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Has to be less efficient than cutting through clean air. But that doesn’t mean it can’t work, recall that the world’s faster propeller plane had contra-rotating propellers which surely made an even bigger mess of the air, being right on top of one another:

Ash78, voting early and often > Notchback88 02/19/2020 at 09:58

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Yep, I believe with contra-rotating props that close together, it’s more symbiotic (see also Tu-95 among other Russian madness: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-95 )

I think with the Do-X it was more about packaging — need more power, but only have so much real estate on the wing (and these were the days before slide rules or good wind tunnels...you’d often make changes during prototyping) . Speaking of real estate, I’m surprised it flew with an array of giant spoilers up there.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > facw 02/19/2020 at 10:01

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Whoa.  Manhattan has a Marine Air Terminal?  TIL’d

facw > ttyymmnn 02/19/2020 at 10:02

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Yeah, the twin otter would be more in keeping with that they current do.

The currently operate 88 Cessna 402s:

Plus a handful of others, and they are starting to take deliveries of Tec nam P2012s to replace the 402s:

benn454 > Notchback88 02/19/2020 at 10:02

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 Shouldn't the engines be suspended from the underside of the wings, as well? I guess they figured they couldn't fit them all with the fuselage in the way. Though I don't see why they couldn't have put four under the wings and the center engines up top like a 727.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > facw 02/19/2020 at 10:04

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OK, so I went down this Rabbit Hole...

http://docknyc.com/sites-locations/manhattan/skyport-seaplane/

Why is there a “three blade prop” requirement out there in the East River?

Notchback88 > benn454 02/19/2020 at 10:06

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Without digging into the wiki, I’m gonna guess materials/weight distribution limitation.

Also keeping them over the wing reduces exposure to water during landings and takeoffs, which in turn reduces corrosion. 

For Sweden > Cé hé sin 02/19/2020 at 10:09

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They did, but before accounting for inflation of the Reichsmark.

facw > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 02/19/2020 at 10:14

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Yep, if you zoom in on the picture, you can see the building is labeled “ Marine Aviation”, while the gray banner on the fence to left says “SKYPORT NYC, New York City’s Only Seaplane Terminal”. As I say, I’ve never actually seen planes operating there though.

There’s also the much more famous Marine Air Terminal at LGA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Air_Terminal

That doesn’t serve seaplanes anymore, having long been used for Pan Am and then Delta shuttle flights, and now serving Jet Blue after the airlines shuffled their terminals to consolidate operations.

facw > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 02/19/2020 at 10:16

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I don’t know about the props. Maybe they are quieter or more resistant to bird strikes?

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > facw 02/19/2020 at 10:29

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Yeah, that was my initial confusion. I used to fly Delta Shuttle from the LGA Marine Terminal... really had no idea there was a Terminal along the East River at 23rd. Fascinating.

I’m curious, given all the river traffic, how to reliably offer this service in bad weather?

BTW, do you recall? I considered doing this, but never did... wasn’t there a water-shuttle, fast-boat service FROM the LGA Marine Terminal to MidTown via the river  years ago?  It rings a bell but I don’t remember the details-- the premise was “faster and more reliable” than a Yellow Cab over the Tri-Borough and down the east side highway.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > facw 02/19/2020 at 10:29

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My assumption was noise but purely a guess.

WilliamsSW > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 02/19/2020 at 10:42

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That’s a weird one. But a 3 blade would be more efficient than a 2 blade, and generally speaking, 3 blades are constant speed props, while 2 blades can be either.

All of that will help get the aircraft on the step and out of the water quicker — which will help gain altitude and reduce noise, I suspect?

It’s an odd prescription though. 

facw > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 02/19/2020 at 10:43

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Don’t recall the ferry, but it certainly seems possible. 

and 100 more > ttyymmnn 02/19/2020 at 10:45

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Any plane is a float plae if you glub glub glub gurggle please help i’m d ro wn ing.

MonkeePuzzle > ttyymmnn 02/19/2020 at 11:15

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the size of some fo these thigns!

I can’t imagine how hard it must have been to get them up to take off speed, especially pushing through something as thick as water

ttyymmnn > MonkeePuzzle 02/19/2020 at 11:24

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That’s a big thick wing. 

Chariotoflove > ttyymmnn 02/19/2020 at 11:47

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Was waiting for the A320 reference. Was not disappointed. 

gmctavish needs more space > ttyymmnn 02/19/2020 at 11:52

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If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > facw 02/19/2020 at 12:10

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Google says they have two  Caravan float planes.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > ttyymmnn 02/19/2020 at 12:10

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It's Caravans. They bought amphibian Caravans.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > ttyymmnn 02/19/2020 at 12:15

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Dig the leather trench coat.

glemon > ttyymmnn 02/19/2020 at 12:18

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Last year, while flying over the Atlantic (sadly in an Airbus, not a 747) I watched a movie (as one does when on a plane for 7 hours) about Claude Dornier

Which I just found on YouTube, as I recall his career and company had it’s ups and downs, and the Do X was one of the downs.  As much as we love to look at it these days, nobody wanted to buy it in those days.  

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Notchback88 02/19/2020 at 12:20

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I would suspect the drop in effecincy of the pusher prop is less than the drag penalty of another bank of engines

ttyymmnn > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 02/19/2020 at 12:37

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Leather or oilskin. 

ttyymmnn > glemon 02/19/2020 at 12:38

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WilliamsSW > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 02/19/2020 at 12:42

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The Caravan is a great airplane but I’m surprised they went with a single engine.  

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > WilliamsSW 02/19/2020 at 12:48

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It's not like the floatplane market is that big. The options that can carry more than a couple people are few.

WilliamsSW > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 02/19/2020 at 12:55

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Well, there is the Twin Otter and... ummm....

Yeah I’ve got nothing lol

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > WilliamsSW 02/19/2020 at 13:18

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Exactly. Most floatplanes are 6 passenger or less, which isn’t gonna be able to keep up with any sort of BOS to NYC demand.

Of course the could always go vintage and procure a few Beechcraft 18 s...

WilliamsSW > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 02/19/2020 at 13:22

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So I looked it up- the Twin Otter can carry up to 19 pax, and the Caravan maxes out at 14. I’m sure they looked at both aircraft.

The Twin Beech can only carry up to 11, and those round engines would be too costly to keep running, I’m sure - though it would be cool.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > WilliamsSW 02/19/2020 at 13:26

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I imagine it’s a matter of running cost. The Caravan has almost triple the production numbers of the Otter so I imagine they’re much easier to get parts and support for.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > WilliamsSW 02/20/2020 at 00:06

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or they go crazy and get a Japanese airsea rescue