New M3/4 will have a conventional automatic, not a dual-clutch (DCT). Think more will chose the manual because of this, or will DCT buyers go for the auto?

"davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com" (davesaddiction) 02/14/2020 at 09:12 • Filed to: None

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I’m sure the auto will still shift and accelerate faster than the manual, but the real benefit of the DCT is absolute control and RIGHT NOW shifts.

I assume a similar number will go for the auto as the DCT (if not more), but hopefully at least 25-30% still want three pedals...

It will have the same drivetrain as this :

Tripper > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 02/14/2020 at 09:30

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I bet DCT buyers go for the auto, unless they’re actually going to track it.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Tripper 02/14/2020 at 09:36

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Percentage of E9x M3 owners who track their car: 3%

Percentage of F8x M3 owners who track their car: 2%

Percentage of G8x M3 owners who will track their car: 1%

They’re only getting bigger and less wieldy.

facw > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 02/14/2020 at 09:38

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People would buy the auto, because no small part of the appeal of buying an M3/M4 is to get a fast and fancy car that is also not a pain to use daily. And for most buyers, a manual is a pain .

In a time when nearly 99% of new cars sold in the US are automatics, I don’t think you are going to find that torque converter discouraging too many people. Some to be sure, but not many.

Mercedes Streeter > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 02/14/2020 at 09:38

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Bet the automatic will still have a "manual" mode, so I would expect DCT buyers to go slushbox.

412GTI > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 02/14/2020 at 09:39

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Definitely a bit of a bummer as BMW’s DCT is pretty good. The 8 speed is quite quick but I’ve noticed it’s downshifts where DCT’s are beneficial . Is it going to be AWD too now? 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Mercedes Streeter 02/14/2020 at 09:39

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Yes, they’ll definitely have flappy paddles.

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 02/14/2020 at 09:40

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I have come to really like my DCT in the GTI. I would probably prefer a manual in an M3 if it were replacing my GTI . . . except that it is so useful to have a car that my wife is willing to drive. I’d have to convince her to remember how to drive manual. So there is every possibility that in the hypothetical that I decided to buy an M3, it would end up as an automatic.

So, I think that Tripper is right, DCT buyers will almost certainly go for the auto unless they plan to track it. Even for my occasional autocross I’d probably be better off with a typical auto if the programming is good.

Interesting.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > 412GTI 02/14/2020 at 09:40

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The top of the line, most powerful one will be AWD.

You will be able to get a RWD manual with less power (referred to a “Pure” in some speculative articles).

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > facw 02/14/2020 at 09:43

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Yeah, for sure. I’m specifically thinking of previous owners who maybe had a manual E46/E9x, and now have a DCT E9x/F8x, and will move on to the G8x.

Seems like a torque convertor would be a let-down after having a dual clutch.

Textured Soy Protein > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 02/14/2020 at 09:45

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My 135is was a DCT. The appeal to me was more the quick shifting and less the ability to say “well technically this is an automated manual with clutches not a traditional automatic transmission with a torque converter” to people as their eyes roll back into their head out of boredom.

I’ve driven an M235i xDrive with the ZF8 and found the transmission to be nearly as quick shifting as the DCT but noticeably smoother. I believe in the full-M cars it’s even quicker.

As long as it shifts fast I don’t care what type of mechanism it is. I’m starting to feel like DCTs were an intermediate step until regular torque converter automatics closed the performance gap. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com 02/14/2020 at 09:45

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That’s the question: will a DCT owner be willing to take a “step back” into a torque convertor? Really talking about enthusiasts here, not just buyers who want the most powerful, top-of-the-line status car.

412GTI > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 02/14/2020 at 09:48

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Interesting. I kind of like that actually. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > 412GTI 02/14/2020 at 09:50

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Yeah, seriously. That’s the one I have my eye on (assuming they don’t completely screw it up and give the whole line those stupid huge kidneys).

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Textured Soy Protein 02/14/2020 at 09:53

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Yeah, modern torque convertors have gotten incredibly good, and don’t have some of the quirks of a DCT that will bother some owners.

Porsche’s sticking with PDK - I think it’s superior, just significantly more expensive. Many makers have decided the “slushboxes” have gotten good enough that the additional expense of the dual-clutch just isn’t worth it.

gin-san - shitpost specialist > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 02/14/2020 at 10:00

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For most DCT buyers it’s probably not going to matter, and if you’re a big petrolhead you would’ve ended up with the manual anyway.

I wonder why they’re stepping away from DCTs in favour of torque converter autos. I had always thought that DCTs were the next evolutionary step for automatic gearboxes since even budget manufacturers like Kia are putting them in place of torque converter autos on their higher trim level cars.

phenotyp > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 02/14/2020 at 10:05

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Maybe half the people who buy M3/4s are enthusiasts, the other half are badge whores who just want the cache, in my experience.

Those who know would want the DCT, I think. There just might not be enough of them to justify the development expense. Which is a bummer.

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 02/14/2020 at 10:13

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Has it even been confirmed that a manual will be offered at all? I thought they were doing away with manuals in M cars.

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 02/14/2020 at 10:21

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I’d consider myself an enthusiast, and given that I passed on buying a BMW when I got the GTI, I’m clearly status-averse. And I planned on getting the GTI as a manual until I tried the DCT. So I think I’m representative of what you are trying to figure out. But I also need the car to perform commuting duties in stop-and-go traffic, so maybe not.

I do know that I alter my throttle inputs in daily driving with the GTI because of quirky driveline drag from the DCT. I imagine that good programming would likely result in me ending up in an auto M3.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 02/14/2020 at 10:37

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Yes - they’ve been heard in testing on the ‘Ring.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > gin-san - shitpost specialist 02/14/2020 at 10:38

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$$$, and smoother at low speeds around town.

Mid Engine > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 02/14/2020 at 10:42

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PDK remains the gold standard, I wouldn’t buy one though. Three pedals are mandatory on performance cars

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Mid Engine 02/14/2020 at 10:47

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Connection/control/i nvolvement uber alles.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > phenotyp 02/14/2020 at 10:49

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Yeah, it’s a shame.

gin-san - shitpost specialist > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 02/14/2020 at 10:53

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I had thought DCTs today were much smoother than before; then again, if torque converter autos have caught up to the point where the additional complexity is unnecessary then it seems like a smart decision.

As for the $$$ I always figured that comes with the territory with M cars.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > gin-san - shitpost specialist 02/14/2020 at 11:19

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They are smoother, just not to the level of a slushbox.

There’s beancounters at every level.

benn454 > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 02/14/2020 at 11:58

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But that’s literally 90% of BMW’s customer base. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > benn454 02/14/2020 at 11:59

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Sad, but true.

feather-throttle-not-hair > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 02/14/2020 at 13:37

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They will go to the auto and love it. The manual version is already going to be less powerful, so all the people worrying about it being less hard core than the DSG box will still have the less powerful version to look down on. That’s all these people ever wanted in the first place, a feeling of “yeah, I got the best one”

Enthusiasts will buy the manual/rwd version, everyone wins.

Victorinoo > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 02/14/2020 at 19:58

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There were rumors of an AWD M3/M4. If so the auto would allow them to add a drift/burnout mode like in the current m5.

NYankee1927 > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 02/14/2020 at 22:20

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Jesus are they trying to kill their fan base? I’m picking up an F80 M3 soon because my back is killing me and I am striking a compromise with the wife by getting the DCT and not keeping my E46. It already is a old man’s car and is basically my limit for docile. An auto would make it no better than a 335.

This may be my last BMW if they keep going in this direction. I’ll have the family cars covered and Porsche actually listens to their fan base. I’ll happily throw my money that way. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > NYankee1927 02/15/2020 at 19:57

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I’m trying to wait to pass judgment, but it’s getting tougher and tougher...

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > feather-throttle-not-hair 02/15/2020 at 19:57

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Very thankful the “pure” version is happening. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Victorinoo 02/15/2020 at 19:59

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Yes, AWD version is happening. Auto, AWD, more power than manual RWD version. 

Nauraushaun > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 02/16/2020 at 00:27

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Why go back to an old autotragic?

NYankee1927 > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 02/16/2020 at 13:37

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That is impressive amount of control. I’m already judging them

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Nauraushaun 02/16/2020 at 21:33

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The 90%...

Nauraushaun > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 02/17/2020 at 16:22

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But why not dual-clutch? If Golfs and A3s have dual-clutches, how can the M3 not?

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Nauraushaun 02/17/2020 at 21:59

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Bean counters decided the cost wasn’t worth the benefit (anymore).