Dear Daimler-Benz,

"SBA Thanks You For All The Fish" (santabarbarianlsx) 02/04/2020 at 11:39 • Filed to: None

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I appreciate your desire to reduce unsprung weight...

Shown above is the aftermath of the shearing of a Mercedes W126 (they used these damn things for many, many years across a variety of platforms) wheel lug bolt deep with a very, very nice deep-well Lorinser wheel.

The deep inset makes it pretty much impossible to reach the broken stub buried down into the wheel. We wasted a weekend on these. I was almost to the point of cutting the knuckle off the car.

And, yes, there are some wonderful YouTube videos of well-dressed mechanics extracting these in seconds with a stud remover. Those are nice videos... a pity those extractors were useless.

I’m sure there was some “reason” for using such a thin cross-section in the middle of the bolt, but my belief system is committed to the idea that the reason sucked.

We did, BTW, figure out a way to get the offender out of there. I’ll post a longer article sometime on what we had to do if anyone is interested .

jimz > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 02/04/2020 at 11:54

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meanwhile the rest of the world just used studs/nuts which have the added benefit of holding the wheel on the hub while you thread the nuts on. 

oldmxer > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 02/04/2020 at 12:00

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this is the perfect example of how to kill an elephant with a hang nail, except it’s earned because it was self inflicted(al so see; General Motors)

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > jimz 02/04/2020 at 12:12

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Yeah, there was virtually nothing “positive” about this implementation. In fact, Sie Scheisskopfers actually thought it was a good thing to have the head of the bolt out on the wheel face... attached by a dainty neck-of-the-bolt.

“Dude, we have hardened extension drivers here in North America!”

CalzoneGolem > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 02/04/2020 at 12:19

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That looks like a lot of swearing.

Censored > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 02/04/2020 at 12:22

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I love these. It reminds me of how German engineering is better. And somehow the joke never gets old.

Textured Soy Protein > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 02/04/2020 at 12:32

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I actually like the (normal, not like these) wheel bolts on my E92 BMW. It’s a little annoying to line up wheels when mounting them, but I got a wheel pin that takes care of that. Much easier to use spacers if desired than if the hubs had studs. 

VincentMalamute-Kim > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 02/04/2020 at 12:35

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I’m interested in hearing about your creative removal solution. Looks like d rilling was involved?

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > Textured Soy Protein 02/04/2020 at 13:00

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Agree--  My Audis have the same set-up.  Normal lug bolts inset.  It’s not THAT hard to line them up.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > VincentMalamute-Kim 02/04/2020 at 13:08

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Yeah. Diamond-tipped hole saw of JUST the right diameter... And, of course, with the broken-off stud in the way the center of the hole saw wouldn’t completely seat down— so we had to get medieval with the stump of the stud enough to get the hole saw down onto the acorn seat.

And, to make matters worse, the whole thing seems to be completely hardened, so normal drill bits were ineffective. There was a diamond-tip hole saw at Lowe’s, fortunately.

Both the “torch trick” and “stud extractor trick” were worthless, BTW.

But, once we got a crease carved into the back of the acorn seat material (also hardened.... thanks guys) then it folded up like a cheap umbrella in a typhoon. But it hung tough.

Funny that once the fever broke the bolt came out “finger tight”. I’m assuming that some a$$hole at a tire shop along the way used an impact wrench to tighten them down. Never again.

It’s a sweet W126 for my son, BTW.  Gorgeous, gorgeous example.  He loves it.

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > jimz 02/04/2020 at 13:14

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For the life of me I cannot fathom why VW uses lug bolts instead of nuts and studs. It doesn’t help that the set screw that stops my brake discs and drums from turning when no bolts are installed is missing from every wheel on the Golf, making putting tires back one much more annoying than one would expect.

Textured Soy Protein > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 02/04/2020 at 13:15

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I love this thing though:

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 02/04/2020 at 13:19

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There are very smart and highly experienced people here on Oppo who disagree with me vehemently on this, but nevertheless, here goes: I always, always use copper paste on my wheel lugs and studs. I am careful not to excessively torque them, and I never fail to rotate every 5,000 miles, so the lugs see a wrench every few months. I would particularly use it with these contraptions-for-bolts.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 02/04/2020 at 13:21

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Story well told, Sir. And, copper paste, again.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > Textured Soy Protein 02/04/2020 at 13:26

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Yeah, it’s a great solution.

I’m actually always heartened when I see the rotor on the Audi moving around on the hub-- it reassures me that the rotor is held in place with certainty to the wheel/tire.  With 5 bolts torqued down, my brake rotor is exactly where it needs to be.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > CalzoneGolem 02/04/2020 at 13:31

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Yeah.  And, man, we chewed up a lot of clock messing with this.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 02/04/2020 at 13:37

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Yeah, those “theorists” get all piss-y with theoretical arguments about “whe el torque specs” and “coefficient of friction” and “metallurgy of the wheel studs”. I’m assuming most of them live in California where they dont’ see road salt, much less rain-and-snow.

I posted awhile back about a Suburban HD wheel stud/nut I had to cut off with an angle grinder (at least in that case the nut was hanging out in open space, begging to be lopped off like hot butter with a plasma knife...). Same issue. A bit of copper paste would have prevented both episodes.

So, my choices are:
1) Move to Phoenix OR
2) Use some form of anti-seize prevention on the threads

Basically, you should be checking wheel torque frequently anyway.

VincentMalamute-Kim > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 02/04/2020 at 13:51

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wow. Nice work. “Finger tight” might be because the torch actually loosened it up. Of course those things are hardened. Supposedly cobalt drill bits will work on hardened steel. If not, carbide tipped bits.

Although given the ragged remaining edge of the bolt, it would be difficult to start a drill bit in the center of the bolt.

O ne side-effect of 2x/year tire rotation (or putting on/off snow tire s ) is keeping those lug nuts/bolts exercised.

W126's are good looking.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > VincentMalamute-Kim 02/04/2020 at 14:17

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Yeah, thanks. The ragged look to the stud is due to the punishment we meted out to it— in an effort to “shorten” it enough for the diamond-hole-saw to slide down onto the acorn seat section. You can see that we literally drilled into the center of the stud remnant (carbide drill required) to remove enough material, followed by a larger diameter drill to “shorten” the stud-stump.

Once we got enough of the stud out of the way, it still took hours on the diamond hole saw to carve the gouge into the acorn seat. It folded right up, finally.

The threads themselves weren’t actually galled— hence the finger-tight loosening.

My assumption is that there was an air impact wrench used to tighten it originally— and the very, very (in my mind, oversized) acorn seat mating area just presented too large a frictional load for the bolt to loosen it— and the narrow (brittle) section just twisted off.

Armed with EXACTLY the right tools, I”m sure a talented mechanic could have gotten it out faster than we did.  But, it’s still a wonky pain in the ass.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 02/04/2020 at 14:17

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Sure, if we’re talking about the nut holding the main rotor onto a helicopter and the manual doesn’t specify anti-seize, well, then using it wouldn’t be advisable. But that bird is getting regular hangar time and C-checks and whatever. Make sure they’re tight and evenly torqued and not over torqued and rotate your wheels every 5,00o miles and you shouldn’t need a blowtorch.

CalzoneGolem > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 02/04/2020 at 14:17

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Better you than me lol

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > VincentMalamute-Kim 02/04/2020 at 14:18

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“side-effect...” do you mean a benefit? If so, I’d certainly agree. I rotate faithfully every 5,000 miles.

VincentMalamute-Kim > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 02/04/2020 at 14:53

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Yes.

VincentMalamute-Kim > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 02/04/2020 at 14:56

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Thanks for sharing the details of your bad day. L earning how to do stuff like this should i noculate against this ever happening to me. Although owning junkers and having lived in Milw means I had a lot of rusted/seized fasteners - why I love oxy/acet.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > VincentMalamute-Kim 02/04/2020 at 15:02

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Anti-Seize would have saved me a seizure or two that day...

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > VincentMalamute-Kim 02/04/2020 at 15:18

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Owning junkers: can relate. Living in the snow belt: cannot relate.

VincentMalamute-Kim > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 02/04/2020 at 16:12

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yeah, I fixed that by moving to Colorado. It’s not nearly as snowy and cold as Milwaukee.

VincentMalamute-Kim > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 02/04/2020 at 16:19

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I disagree with you on anti-seize on wheel lugs. You’d have to decrease the torque rating of the wheel nut. But I’m not disagreeing with you vehemently ; respectfully disagreeing since you have a neat van.

And since you rotate regularly, I’d bet you’d not need the anti-seize. I rotated regularly with no anti-seize in the salt belt and never had an issue with numerous cars. (anecdotal evidence I know )

Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 02/04/2020 at 16:44

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What a PITA.

I’m reminded of the accidental discovery that the lug bolts on the W210 were different if you were using the spare tire. Bad, noisy things happen if you use the ones for the alloys with the spare. I wanted to get a ticket to Germany to find the engineer who thought that this was a good idea and give him a swift kick in the nuts.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. 02/04/2020 at 16:52

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Yeah. This. WTF were they thinking? Especially with those Lorinsers (which I love) that have the deeply inset holes. DEEPLY inset.

There should be an Uber-style app for that, actually. “SIRI, please dispatch a UBER-slapper to Stuttgart to find Hans Gruber in Daimler-Benz Campus Fier, Building Zwanzig, Cubicle Zwolf. Once you find him, Bitch-Slap him to a Bitch-Slap Intensity Six. That is all.”

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > VincentMalamute-Kim 02/04/2020 at 16:55

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Appreesh. The van, Rusty, is currently in storage at my friend’s equipment yard because a guy in Tennessee has my carburetor. Implausible sounding, I realize, but that’s the story and I’m sticking with it. And I sort of used a lot of car project budget on that crappy Vic which runs and is roadworthy. Once I get the carburetor back, I’ll work on getting Rusty on the road. I need to find a couple of doors, though, because the ones that are on there are wasted .

Chuckles > jimz 02/04/2020 at 17:05

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The modern Fiat 500 also uses lug bolts. I was surprised when I found that out during a tire change. Not sure if other FCA vehicles also use them.

pip bip - choose Corrour > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 02/05/2020 at 02:13

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painful!