A revolutionary idea

"DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever" (eg6) 11/14/2020 at 12:11 • Filed to: None

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For Imperial sockets/bolts. Why don’t we just make all sizes their fraction of 16 and then refer to that size by the numerator (the top number) so for example, a one inch bolt would be a No. 16 a 5/8th bolt would be a No. 10 and a 2 1/2 bolt would be a No. 40.

inb4: Imperial bad, metric good

Metric is garbage for everyday use, it’s only good for scaling between orders of magnitude which I’m sure is nice for scientists who do that regularly, but you rarely do that in day to day life. Imperial units are much easier divided by 3 and 4 plus are usually much more useful amount to begin with. Like how a foot is a commonly used measurement and lots of the time there isn’t enough of whatever to be a full yard/meter so you don’t have to deal with decimals nearly as much.

MUSASHI66 > DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever 11/14/2020 at 12:14

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“Metric is garbage for everyday use”.

You forgot the /s

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever 11/14/2020 at 12:14

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Because there are already numbered screw and drill sizes

DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 11/14/2020 at 12:20

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Yeah, but then you have to deal with the numerator of the fraction and unlike measuring the length of something bolts increment in fixed amounts. 

DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever > MUSASHI66 11/14/2020 at 12:23

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It is though, a meter is too big to measure a lot of things without a decimal and can’t be divided evenly by 3 to a smaller, but still large enough to be handy unit, that can then be divided by 2, 3, and 4.

Metric is good for scaling between orders of magnitude, but Imperial is much better for scaling between integer numbers because almost all units can be evenly be divided by quarters, thirds, and halves .

facw > DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever 11/14/2020 at 12:30

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Where do you get that dividing by 3 is easy in Imperial? You can divide a foot by 3 and get four inches, or a yard and get a foot but those are  like the only place in the system you can do that. And it only works if you are dividing multiples of those specific measurements. Meanwhile if you wanted to divide by say 10 or 5 you are in an awkward place, while metric is easy for any number.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever 11/14/2020 at 12:30

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Way too easy to confuse with metric, and in the end, you’re teaching/learning a new system. Imperial is still around because people don’t want to to that. 

Wacko > DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever 11/14/2020 at 12:35

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You know we have mm, cm, meters and Km right?

Otto-the-Croatian-'Whoops my Volvo is a sedan' > DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever 11/14/2020 at 12:38

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Regarding the day-to-day argument - I think that you just might be used to using imperial - so when thinking about lengths and sizes in real life scenarios, it falls naturally to you to use imperial units.

I assure you that anyone who lives with metric units feels the same way about metric. To me it just makes sense that a certain distance is about 2 meters by eye, same as how you would estimate a certain distance to be 2 feet.

The decimal number system is just so incredibly easy and natural to use that you will never change someone’s mind into using imperial.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever 11/14/2020 at 12:45

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That’s my biggest gripe with metric, is that the gaps betwe en units are too large. I mean sure there’s decimeters and decameters but have you ever actually seen them get used?

Brickman > DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever 11/14/2020 at 12:50

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Maybe I been a mechanic for too long, but your post is giving me a blank stare. 80% of the time I can tell what size socket I need by looking at the bolt.

Pretty much everything on an engine / automotive uses metric. Works great. a 10mm bolt uses a 10mm socket. Ford likes their 5.5mm :P

Household and furniture uses SAE. Most likely uses 1/2" socket. Although I find lug nuts to be in SAE size.

DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever > Wacko 11/14/2020 at 12:56

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That’s the thing though they all scale way more than imperial. There’s a lot of measurements that a foot is an excellent unit of measurement for, because an inch or centimete r would be to small and a full meter too big.

Basically the orders of magnitude in Imperial do cost you precision, but it’s precision that’s usually unnecessary in real life.

Say you need to subtract 3/16" from 5/8" . In your head you just double the 5/8" to 10/16" , subtract the 3 and you have the answer 7/16" . Whereas in metric you’re going to be subtracting something like 1 .58 - .47 and get a result of 1.11. And even if the centimeters were an even number like 1.6 - .5 = 1.1 you’re still dealing with multiple spaces instead of just a simple doubling and addition /subtraction single digits.

Weight is another example. Being able to scale from pounds to just ounces in fractions scales you down enough to give you enough precision, with out having to do math with more than single digits, so it’s easier to do in your head.

Sockets are bit different, since they only increment in set amounts there’s no reason to bother with fractions and it’s better to just have a single number than references a size. 

DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever > Otto-the-Croatian-'Whoops my Volvo is a sedan' 11/14/2020 at 13:00

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This is just a copy and paste of my reply to Wacko

That’s the thing though they all scale way more than imperial. There’s a lot of measurements that a foot is an excellent unit of measurement for, because an inch or centimeter would be to small and a full meter too big.

Basically the orders of magnitude in Imperial do cost you precision, but it’s precision that’s usually unnecessary in real life.

Say you need to subtract 3/16" from 5/8". In your head you just double the 5/8" to 10/16", subtract the 3 and you have the answer 7/16". Whereas in metric you’re going to be subtracting something like 1.58 - .47 and get a result of 1.11. And even if the centimeters were an even number like 1.6 - .5 = 1.1 you’re still dealing with multiple spaces instead of just a simple doubling and addition/subtraction single digits.

Weight is another example. Being able to scale from pounds to just ounces in fractions scales you down enough to give you enough precision, with out having to do math with more than single digits, so it’s easier to do in your head.

Sockets are bit different, since they only increment in set amounts there’s no reason to bother with fractions and it’s better to just have a single number than references a size.  

Maxima Speed > DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever 11/14/2020 at 13:19

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I love it, thats a genius idea.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Wacko 11/14/2020 at 13:20

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Don’t forget decimeters. The unsung hero of the metric system.

DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever > facw 11/14/2020 at 13:23

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Because you’re way more likely to run into a scenario were you need a third or a quarter of a unit rather than scaling it by ten and to a lesser extent five , because the orders of magnitude are so far apart in metric, it’s very unlikely you’ll ever need to actually convert them in day to day life because the more appropriate measurement would’ve just been used from the beginning.  

Metric is better for when you need more than 1/16th unit of precision , but because it scales by ten you get a lot of scenarios were neither order of magnitude is very practical , like height height were they have to 3 places because a deci meter isn’t precise enough, where’as in Imperial you only need two digits because since feet is much more precise than meters, you don’t need to go down two orders of magnitude to get useful measure, you only need to go down one.

cluelessk > DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever 11/14/2020 at 13:28

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There’s a reason why the construction industry here still builds using imperial measurement in Canada. It’s quick for builders to do the fairly simple measurements they need.

We don’t use Imperial for anything else besides human weight a height in daily life and that’s just a carry over from when we still used them officially.

Not having to deal with fractions I feel is easier for most myself included . D ecimeter is 1 0 centi meter s a great alternative to feet if you’re using metric. 10 decimeters in 1 meter. 1000 meters is a kilometer. How many feet in a mile again?

It’s way easier to teach and learn Metric.

facw > DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever 11/14/2020 at 13:37

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But as I said, dividing into thirds is less easy in Imperial, except for a few special cases. And honestly even quartering only works well for a very limited set of things (granted that set is centered around common experience). It’s a crappy and extremely limited system. Also, dividing by three and four is simple in decimal . You might not get integer answers, but you these are easy fractions to deal with, vs the mess you get under the Imperial system.   And I really don’t needing three digits across two different units as being any better for measuring height than just using three digits across one unit (of course you could get away with two digits if you use only inches, but we generally don’t do that, and what you’d get would still be less precise). Also note that there’s no requirement to round to the nearest 1 or the nearest 10, if you want to round to 3, 5, or 7 you can go ahead and do that. Use the level of precision you need, without attaching an ugly fractional system (with inconsistent denominators).

benn454 > DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever 11/14/2020 at 13:37

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US Customary. We didn’t fight and win a war to dissociate ourselves from the British Empire for our health.

Just use what you’re comfortable with and don’t worry about what anyone else is using. Arguments over which is better are petty and childish. Americans are perfectly capable of using both. We've been doing it for decades now. 

benn454 > cluelessk 11/14/2020 at 13:43

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5,280

benn454 > Otto-the-Croatian-'Whoops my Volvo is a sedan' 11/14/2020 at 13:46

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It’s a two way street . Everything you just said applies to someone who grew up with Customary. 

LastFirstMI is my name > DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever 11/14/2020 at 14:02

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This is a brilliant idea to make the Imperial system almost usable; ironically, like the internal combustion engine we use them on, it’s like putting lipstick  on a dinosaur just as the meteor strikes.

DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever > cluelessk 11/14/2020 at 14:15

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For yards to mile, it’s way easier to remember it as 1/4 mile = 440 yards (or you could round it to 450 or 400 depending on how precise you need to be).

It actually works pretty well, because pretty much any scenario were you’re dealing with more than 2 miles, you likely aren’t going to care about being more precise than half a mile (and past say, five, you aren’t going to care at all about that) With metric you can easily be precise within 100 yards/meters by going one place after the decimal, but with Imperial you can accurate with miles down to ~200 yard/meters because 1/8th is 220 yards, and below that you can just use yards or 1/16 mile s o you can just about as precise while also having smaller number to work with for large distances, like between towns, since miles is quite a bit large measure than kilometer.

DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever > benn454 11/14/2020 at 14:20

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No, because usually Imperial scales at less than t en, (the biggest exception being feet to inches, but metric doesn’t even have a unit at the scale of feet) with an imperial and metric measure with the same amount of digits, the Imperial is almost always going to be more precise.

You can get much more precision with metric, but you have to add digits, which makes mental math quite a bit more difficult and often that amount of precision isn’t necessary.

MiniGTI - now with XJ6 > DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever 11/14/2020 at 14:26

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I admit I do think that way when sorting sockets. 

sony1492 > DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever 11/14/2020 at 14:39

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Im regularly cursing the use of fractions when I'm trying to fabricate things. Its alot easier to do math with decimals then having to convert fractions back and forth

MUSASHI66 > DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever 11/14/2020 at 14:52

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You are just so wrong, but based on the other replies, I won’t even try to provide any facts. As a person who lived in a metric world for 20 years, and then in imperial for the  next 20 years, your explanation of why imperial is better is simply ridiculous. 

benn454 > DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever 11/14/2020 at 14:55

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 I was speaking more to the point that someone who has grown up around Customary would feel the same way regarding what was easy and natural for them.

DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever > facw 11/14/2020 at 15:17

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Because Imperial scaling to new units at 3 or 4 (or some multiple of them, like 16 or 12) allows you to have more accuracy with smaller numbers.

For example, with clothing/sewing, you can use inches which are 4x more precise than decimeters and you can also scale up to feet which is ~ 3x more precise than meters. When scaling down below inches, simple fraction like 1/2 and 1/4 are going to be precise enough without having to scale down ten time to millimete r s .

You get pretty much the same thing with other types of measurements. Gallon is 4 quarts, which is 16 cups, which is 128  ounces.

Whereas with Metric you’d go from (let’s say 5 liters), to 50 decili ters, to 500 millili ters.

Basically, metric doesn’t really convert to new units so much as it just gives you precise remainders . Whereas Imperial lets you be more accurate with simpler numbers like with the clothing/sewing example.

gin-san - shitpost specialist > DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever 11/14/2020 at 16:30

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That’s a neat idea.

As for metric/imperial, I use what the context demands: speeds around here are in km/h, but cars are hp and weight is lbs more often than kg. Height is typically feet rather than cm, but our beers are 473ml and standard wine/liquor bottle size is 750ml.

When looking at houses, the living area in square footage makes sense to me, but in square metres doesn’t.

These days I don’t find these things to be an issue since if I need a conversion, I can literally talk to my phone to convert it for me.

dieseldub > DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever 11/14/2020 at 16:47

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Metric is the only way. 1 mm increments, what could be easier?

Plus, most cars are metric, including American cars, anymore anyway. So... why bother at all with SAE?

DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever > dieseldub 11/14/2020 at 17:21

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This system pretty much behaves like metric in that regard, but if we would’ve used it initially we never would have even needed to bother switching to metric. 

cluelessk > Brickman 11/14/2020 at 17:34

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Sorta related. Ford bolt size choice is weird.

Think I needed a 5.5, 7, 10, 11 and maybe 13mm to remove a fe nder on a F-150 in the body shop. We’d joke about how we finally got to use all the sockets in our sets.

There’s even 4.5 on their old headlight adjusters.

onlytwowheels > DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever 11/14/2020 at 18:40

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What about all the 32nds??? Is my 7/32 socket now No. 3.5???

DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever > onlytwowheels 11/14/2020 at 22:01

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yeah X/32 are much less common. 

Tohru > dieseldub 11/14/2020 at 23:01

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tell that to my Allen keys that are in metric half-sizes, my 4.5mm and 5.5mm 1/4" drive sockets, and my 19.5mm, 21.5mm, and 22.5mm 1/2" drive lugnut sockets