"Svend" (svend)
11/01/2020 at 21:22 • Filed to: None
2
39|
"Svend" (svend)
11/01/2020 at 21:22 • Filed to: None | 2
| 39 |
In the U.K., gone are the days of mainstream car companies selling big fast saloon cars, like the
circa 2004-2007, Ford Mondeo ST220, manual 224bhp 3.0 in saloon and estate.
2004 saloon £5,490. 80,000miles
2006 estate £4,490.
with Ford, there has to be a GM product,
circa 2004-2009 Vauxhall Vectra VXR, manual 252-276bhp 2.8i Turbo V6, in saloon and estate.
ex-police car,
2008 saloon £5,495 103,000miles.
2006 estate £6,995. 59,000miles.
2003 Volvo S60 R, manual 2.5 300bhp.
2003 saloon, £4,950, 122,000miles.
I mean, now we have the likes of the
Ford Focus ST 2.3 EcoBoost, 276bhp in 5 door hatchback and estate.
Hyundai i30 N, 2.0 271bhp
Seat Leon Cupra 2.0 276bhp
These aren’t quite the same as the cars of yester-year.
The old cars were big family cars, where are these are more compact, granted larger than what they used to be in the segment, family cars.
Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
> Svend
11/01/2020 at 21:35 |
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Unfortunately those big fast saloon cars have been replaced with high performance SUVs. Like the Ford Edge, Explorer, etc STs. Not all of them are equivalent to something like the Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk. More like lukewarm SUVs really. BMW X6 M Sports and their like are “sporty” but don’t give up the creature comforts of suspensions travel and NVH but neither are they as quick as the likes of the proper STs.
We got the Volvo Rs over here. Neat but too niche to sell well. We actually have lost the slow and cheap wagons over here while the few holdouts have decent performance. Not exactly sports focused but not too shabby. I really like the Focus wagon STs though. You complain you don't get hot saloons anymore but you don't even buy normal saloons to make it worth their while. Does this gem Focus even have a sedan since they aren't selling it in the US?
Beefchips
> Svend
11/01/2020 at 21:42 |
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Love the looks of the i30N... if we had those in the states I’d be pretty tempted. The veloster is so much fun, I feel like the i30 would also be excellent
wafflesnfalafel
> Svend
11/01/2020 at 21:42 |
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I really like those Mondeos - beautiful car. Those new, euro only Focus ST sure look nice too...
Jb boin
> Svend
11/01/2020 at 21:46 |
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For those who don’t know, the Ford Mondeo ST220 is the cousin of the Jaguar X-Type 3.0 V6 that also exists in an estate version .
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Svend
> Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
11/01/2020 at 21:50 |
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It’s not so much the big saloons as such, but the big family cars that were the saloons and estates which would now be the fastbacks and estates.
The Ford Mondeo for example, doesn’t come as an ST any more, you can get an ST-Line or ST-Line Edition, but they are regular cars with a sporty image.
and the Skoda Superb Sportline and Sportline Plus.
(this one’s brand new, RRP is £46,419, the dealer has it for £36,400)
Saloons fell out of favour a while back. The nearest equivalent would be the 5 door fastback as opposed to the saloon.
No, the Focus come in 5 door hatchback and estate only.
interstate366, now In The Industry
> Svend
11/01/2020 at 21:51 |
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Still very much not a fan of the new Focus, and that weird fastback I30 looks a bit off as well.
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Svend
> Jb boin
11/01/2020 at 21:53 |
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Ye’, people would often say to the Jag owners, ‘nice Mondeo mate’.
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Svend
> wafflesnfalafel
11/01/2020 at 21:59 |
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The thing is, Ford even made them for the American market,
See, slightly lifted and plastic along the lower edges and wheelarches. Lol.
Ford are even working on a Mondeo Active.
Mule seen doing the rounds.
Boxer_4
> Svend
11/01/2020 at 22:03 |
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I’ve always liked the looks of that era of Opel/Vauxhall.
I kinda wanted a Saturn Astra back when they were new.
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Jb boin
> Boxer_4
11/01/2020 at 22:09 |
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Unfortunately it was still a GM product inside :
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Svend
> Boxer_4
11/01/2020 at 22:10 |
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I wasn’t a big fan of the Vauxhall Astra back then, but I liked the panoramic roof that was an option.
Yes, there was a screen that you could pull forward up to the rear view mirror that had the typical drop down sun visors built in.
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wafflesnfalafel
> Svend
11/01/2020 at 22:13 |
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right... everything has to be “manly” in the states now...
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Svend
> wafflesnfalafel
11/01/2020 at 22:17 |
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I don’t think it even looks ‘manly’, it’s okay for people who live in rural areas where roads may not be at there best or down country lanes where that slight added road height will save the underside of the car a bit more, but in city areas, it’s looks like you couldn’t decide on an estate or SUV.
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Boxer_4
> Jb boin
11/01/2020 at 22:20 |
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Still looks better than what we got. (Same era Malibu pictured).
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Boxer_4
> Svend
11/01/2020 at 22:24 |
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I think part of the intrigue was that these were basically the only affordable European cars for sale here other than Volkswagens.
The pano roof is interesting; I don’t believe we got that option here
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Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
> Svend
11/01/2020 at 22:58 |
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I love the color on that Skoda. I don’t usually go for the greenish yellows but it’s so unapologetically bright and cheerful I love it.
I always forget the Fusion/Mondeo came as a wagon but we just didn’t get it. Sedans, despite SUV’s increasing market share, are still a big chunk of car sales in the US. Far more than hatchbacks if you don’t count CUVs under the hatchback category (which most should be really, though proper hatchbacks are reasonably uncommon).
The new Kia K5 has a less crowded market than the old Optima had and has been selling very well based on how many I’ve seen on the road. It’s quite a good looking car too and is pretty good value.
The new Altima is also selling well. As is the new Versa. They still have a great value proposition for comfort, handling, and features, especially compared to their more expensive SUV platform mates.
Altima
Versa
I don’t know why Americans like compact sedans so much compared to compact hatches.
BMW’s liftback designs aren’t a huge percentage of sales in comparison to the regular sedan sales and the rest of the industry isn’t much different. Americans just don’t seem to like hatches on non-SUVs, stealth liftbacks included.
I also definitely see the proliferation of sporty appearance packages, though I’m not sure how that bears on ones that are offered with proper hot versions. M Sports, N Lines, ST Lines, cars that look close enough to the performance version while getting go fast looks and maybe an aggressive exhaust and driving modes.
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Svend
> Boxer_4
11/02/2020 at 03:03 |
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They are nice enough cars and they’ve age well too.
duurtlang
> Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
11/02/2020 at 03:06 |
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I believe in countries like the Netherlands the best selling sedans are Teslas. Mostly because they don’t come as hatchbacks or wagons. The sedan has been dead for ages here . Especially for compacts. We had the situation that the VW Golf was the best selling vehicle of the country , yet the Jetta (Golf sedan) had been discontinued years before.
Traditionally the only brands that sold a significant number of sedans in the 21st century have been Mercedes, Audi, BMW and Volvo. They too sold more wagons obviously, but you do see these sedans in traffic.
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duurtlang
> Svend
11/02/2020 at 03:12 |
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I think the extra plastic cladding is analogous to a 60 year old trying to dress like an 18 year old. More sad than manly.
feather-throttle-not-hair
> Svend
11/02/2020 at 11:38 |
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We have the TRD Avalon and Camry now!
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Svend
> feather-throttle-not-hair
11/02/2020 at 11:49 |
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I don't like the look of that front end. It's like they are trying to out do Lexus or Honda for front end plastic acreage.
Taylor Martin
> Svend
11/02/2020 at 12:07 |
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Oh I’d kill to see the Focus Estate in the states. Such a good looking car, and it’s got that practical trunk that makes a guy like me swoon.
I’m not very attuned to European cars. One could argue I’m not all that attuned to cars in general, and I’d probably agree with them. I’m not sure exactly what that Peugeot estate is. It’s borderline a minivan, so very borderline, it just looks a bit taller than your typical wagon.
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feather-throttle-not-hair
> Svend
11/02/2020 at 12:32 |
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Oh, its not good. The TRD package basically
consists of lowering springs (the car is still soft) an exhaust (the car is still quiet)
along with a splitter, side skirts, wheels
and a diffuser. The chrome all got blacked out too
, which i actually
think looks nice in contrast to the red paint.
I think the Camry version has some extra chassis bracing and notably no longer has folding rear seats as a result. That seems like a bad tradeoff in my mind.
But it is a big “sporty” sedan! We also get the Maxima here, which i believe is an Altima but sportier. But not so sporty it doesn’t come with a CVT.
Never the less, those are the cars that are the closest to the Mondeo ST220 in the year 2020 in the United States. The Maxima is a sad one, as the early one’s from the 90's were reportedly quite good and a legitimate Taurus SHO competitor (which its self was also supposed to be quite good for its first generation, before it went V8/AT only.) As the Maxima aged, it lost its multilink suspension in favor of a torsen beam setup, and finally ended up in its current CVT only form (though i’d bet the suspension isn’t torsen beam anymore.)
I have a soft spot for cars like this, the classic “I need a large sedan at a reasonable price, but I don’t want to hate driving it.” I was a huge fan from afar of the ST220 and the diesel variant as well. The design was really clean looking and I loved that they came with a M/T. I think the Genesis G70 and the BMW 3-series were the last two M/T sport sedans to come to the U.S. and they’re both dead now. Plus, both of those cars were upmarket from that sweet spot we’re discussing.
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> duurtlang
11/02/2020 at 12:53 |
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Now that you mention it, it is indeed odd the Model 3 doesn’t come as a proper hatch. I guess the R&D costs plus the tooling and complication during assembly.
I always thought it should at least have been a liftback but it was designed by Americans after all. Only in the US it seems compact sedans far outsell similarly sized hatchbacks. When you get down to subcompacts you still somehow get lots of sedans. For instance, the Ford Fiesta sold better as a sedan than a hatch despite looking entirely stupid with a trunk.
Similarly, the VW Jetta outsells the Golf by a wide margin. Half of the Golfs on my local dealer’s lot are GTIs and Rs too since that’s mostly the only reason people look to the model over a Jetta (since the GLI is more of a warm sedan).
As much as I love hatches, the form factor of a sedan is nice and you don’t really give up all that much practicality. Though the smaller the car, the less sense they make. You can still get a surprisingly large trunk on a small car the size of the Corolla (hatches are probably less than 5% of sales here judging by what you see on the roads).
I’ve never run out of space or felt the need for more cargo volume even with 5 people and their luggage in my Cruze, though I had to plan ahead to fit everything.
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Svend
> feather-throttle-not-hair
11/02/2020 at 13:22 |
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We only recently got the Camry back in the U.K./Europe and in the U.K. it’s only in hybrid form.
We only have the Corolla and Camry in saloon form from Toyota.
We do get some interesting vehicles though like the Land Cruiser commercial vehicle.
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Svend
> Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
11/02/2020 at 13:40 |
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As much as I love hatches, the form factor of a sedan is nice and you don’t really give up all that much practicality.
We get the Mondeo in saloon, 5 door liftback and estate.
The saloon and liftback have virtually nothing in it in form.
Skoda does a couple of good saloon looking liftbacks.
Best of both words.
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duurtlang
> Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
11/02/2020 at 13:45 |
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Here the traditional alternative to a hatch is not the sedan, but the wagon. I believe sedans went out of style in the 80s, it may have even started in the 70s. Only cars that are, from our perspective, rather large tend to sell as sedans.
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Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
> Svend
11/02/2020 at 13:55 |
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I was never a huge fan of how the Mondeo/Fusion looked. I think the real problem was with the taillight bulges in the trunk. In general, I think sedans look better the longer and less stubby their trunks are. Though we never got the liftback here and I don’t think it is as good looking.
Modern cars almost all seem to go for varying degrees of fastbacks for aero reasons but it can be done very well. I thought that the Fusion’s platform mate the Lincoln MKZ (a fantastic car to drive BTW and is a proper sleeper) did it very well. The trunk opening isn’t huge though and really would have been better as a liftback.
I just look at modern fastback designs and wonder why on earth they aren’t liftbacks. Like the new Kia K5. It probably has a much smaller trunk opening than the previous gen. Notice how none of the blacked out area under the window lifts up like in the MKZ.
I do think Skoda has some very good looking liftback sedans.
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Svend
> Taylor Martin
11/02/2020 at 13:59 |
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The only Peugeot estates in the U.K. anyway are the:
308SW
508SW
Ford over did it with the Fiesta and Focus front ends.
Why so many!?
Zetec/ Titanium
ST-Line
ST
Active
Vignale
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Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
> duurtlang
11/02/2020 at 14:02 |
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In the 70s the Mini was still a sedan and not a hatchback though. It probably was later than that then. That’s one thing the modern one has over the original.
Yeah, I don’t really get the subcompact sedan thing. Just about the only one I can think of that looks better as a sedan is the Chevy Sonic.
Though it seems like a pretty good split between the hatches and sedans. Same can be said for the Kia Rio.
Meanwhile cars like the Corolla, Forte, Elantra, etc sell in tiny numbers in their hatch variants if one is offered at all. I don’t get it either.
What really gets me is when a car would be much better as a liftback sedan but instead they have this tiny trunk opening that makes putting stuff in it difficult. The new Kia K5 is particularly bad about this.
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Svend
> Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
11/02/2020 at 14:05 |
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I just see saloons as so much less practical. The aperture and everything is too small.
The Skoda Su perb Mk2 Twindoor was the best of both words.
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Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
> Svend
11/02/2020 at 14:14 |
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Yes, especially on fastbacks and smaller sedans the real problem is the size of the trunk opening. Even if the cargo space is about the same as a hatch except flipped 90 degrees on its side, it’s harder to put stuff in. My car has a pretty huge trunk for its size but the actual opening is annoyingly small.
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duurtlang
> Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
11/02/2020 at 14:23 |
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The Mini is from the 50s though. The mid 70s also brought us the mk1 VW Golf hatchback. And many more cars, especially in the European market. The French, the Italians, the Germans, the Brits, the Japanese, all of them. Even Ford had the Fiesta . The first hatchbacks came in the 60s, but it really picked up in the 70s. In the 80s they were the best selling cars here. And this never ended until now.
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Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
> duurtlang
11/02/2020 at 14:28 |
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Yes, it does show the direction of the shift though. The cargo area not being integrated with the passenger compartment in a two box design would have been pretty archaic by that point. I just think it was really in the 80s when the hatchback had matured. The 70s was the early stage of the mainstream hatch but it had been more or less perfected by the 80s.
It was around that point that the earliest crossovers also emerged, being basically hatchbacks with 4x4. The Jeep Cherokee is the most notable but even the body on frame Lada Niva was in on the action. The Fiat Panda 4x4 could also be counted among that group.
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feather-throttle-not-hair
> Svend
11/02/2020 at 16:27 |
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Three things immediately jump out to me:
1: Dear god, America is really pawning off its most boring hybrids on you guys across the pond. Camry hybrid AND Rav4 Hybrid? What did you do to deserve that?
2. That 2-door 4Runner is amazing and i’m going to send it to my friend who is a 4runner enthusiast.
3. The absolute most heartbreaking
part of that entire lineup is that you guys get the Yaris GR4....and it’s cheaper than the Camry Hybrid. Arrrg, i’m so mad we don’t get them here....
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Svend
> feather-throttle-not-hair
11/02/2020 at 16:46 |
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Lol.
The Land Cruiser commercial comes as a 3
door panel van and 5 door panel van.
I’m not a fan of the Yaris, wait, 3 door Toyota Yaris manual 1.8 Dual VVT-i GRMN, 210bhp.
I like the, urgh, long name again.
3 door Ford Fiesta ST Performance Edition, manual 1.5T EcoBoost 197bhp.
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feather-throttle-not-hair
> Svend
11/02/2020 at 17:45 |
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I like the special Yaris’ (Yari?) The GRMN was like a FWD Exige, and the GR....oh man. Like a 3/4 scale STi. One of my favorite cars to come out in a long time. I can’t think of anything that compares to it, a true subcompact (i think ‘
supermini’ is the term you guys use?) that was given the AWD/Turbo/Rally treatment, with a firebreathing near 300 hp 3-cylinder.
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Taylor Martin
> Svend
11/02/2020 at 22:34 |
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Too many Focuses there, too few here... what a shame.
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duurtlang
> Jb boin
11/03/2020 at 02:51 |
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A friend of mine had an Opel Signum V6, so basically the same thing. I already had my Peugeot 406 coupe at the time, which falls in the same class but is a generation older. The Opel was clearly more modern, but the interior was simply worse. The seats were hard but not supportive (the exact opposite to mine), the acres of flat plastic, the design, I just hated it. It has been years since I’ve been in that car, but the memory is still vivid.
I guess it’s been junked already too. Unlike the much older and higher km 406, which is still my reliable daily.