DOTS: Two Pedal Tragedy Edition!

"Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available" (whoistheleader2) 10/17/2020 at 20:48 • Filed to: Dots, VANDERHALL

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Walking around Midtown today on my customary afternoon jaunt, I saw something I didn’t know existed. Some sort of boutique three wheeler was parked in front of a convenience store bearing a name I didn’t recognize.

Yes, this is a !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ! As far as I can work out, they sell three versions of basically the same car under three different model names, the Venice, Carmel, and Edison. The Venice seems to be the least expensive of the three, starting at !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . Apparently you can spend as much as $47,000 on a Carmel but I simply don’t see the point.

All I see here is a less gaudy and more pretentious Polaris Slingshot. Sure, it’s a neat little machine but would I buy one for as much as a brand new hot hatch? No, but I’m also clearly not this thing’s target audience.

Novelt y three wheelers are cool, but this just feels like a Morgan Three Wheeler for a man of lesser taste. Why exactly? It’s got the quirky layout, some styling clearly inspired by motorcycles with a British flair, and it’s an expensive entirely impractical toy. Just one problem.

Go ahead, count the pedals. These come exclusively with an automatic transmission, which their website seems to indicate !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! a traditional torque converter. I just can’t imagine wanting something like this with an automatic.

That said, I do find the exterior and interior design to be cohesive and attractive without feeling overly derivative. I really want to like this thing. It’s a very cool looking vehicle, that’s for sure.

I also really like the recessed headlights. It gives the front end a sleek look and adds lots of visual interest.

pip bip - choose Corrour > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/17/2020 at 20:56

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2 pedals kills it for me.

ttyymmnn > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/17/2020 at 20:58

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I guess it’s the difference between wanting to drive something and wanting to be seen driving something. 

SmugAardvark > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/17/2020 at 20:59

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I do quite like the Vanderhalls. But if I’m going for a three-wheeled vehicle, it’s going to be a Morgan.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > pip bip - choose Corrour 10/17/2020 at 21:00

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Exactly! If you’re going to have a pretentious expensive boutique vaguely British three wheeler, it shouldn’t come with two pedals! Even the sundry neon encrusted Polaris Slingshots driving around often have a surprisingly high take rate for the 5 speed manual. You’re more likely to find the modified ones equipped with an automatic for various reasons but I still see quite a few manuals.

But with two pedals? Naw bro.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > ttyymmnn 10/17/2020 at 21:01

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Exactly! I reckon that’s the biggest difference between a Morgan owner and a Vanderhall owner. Because I’m sure it is quite fun to drive but this feels like a status symbol in the same way as the Polaris Slingshot. And even those often have a 5 speed.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > SmugAardvark 10/17/2020 at 21:03

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Same. I think I would like this more if it had a more engaging transmission choice. I like that it doesn’t appear to be too derivative and it’s quite good looking but man I don’t want a slushbox in my expensive impractical weekend toy!

kanadanmajava1 > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/17/2020 at 21:04

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I was thinking that thing must have quite a lot of power because they have fitted a very wide rear tire. Then I realized that there isn’t any power coming to the rear wheel. S o unlike Slingshot and Morgan this thing is front wheel driven . But I’m not sure what to think about this.

SmugAardvark > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/17/2020 at 21:06

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For sure about the transmission. It sort of detracts from the whole purpose of the car.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > SmugAardvark 10/17/2020 at 21:10

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Yes, it isn’t quite as authentic an experience. What gets me is not that they offer an automatic but that it is the only transmission choice. 

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > kanadanmajava1 10/17/2020 at 21:15

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You know, you’re right. I guess I never thought about it but the Slingshot is RWD. That driveline eccentricy  majorly enhances the novelty of the vehicle. Now it appears to be even more style over substance. 

Just Jeepin' > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/17/2020 at 21:16

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There’s a Vanderhall available locally via Turo. I figure I might rent it someday.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Just Jeepin' 10/17/2020 at 21:21

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Could be fun. I think the fact that it is a FWD automatic style-over-substance three wheeler turns me off a little. It’s not going to be the most pure driving experience. It’ll be a blast but I wouldn’t help but think it could have been more fun. 

facw > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/17/2020 at 21:21

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I bet it’s still fun. That said, this sort of thing is one of very few remaining categories where I’d want a manual. Of course, if you are developing a niche product, maybe it is too expensive to source, integrate, and validate two transmissions, and I bet a significant share of their market is boomers (and maybe even aging gen-Xers) who don’t feel comfortable on a motorcycle anymore, and who wouldn’t drive a stick.

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/17/2020 at 21:23

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Reminds me of the Nobe....cool little electric three-wheeler being developed in Estonia and recently announced they’ll be built and sold in the US (no idea about Canada) . I LOVE the styling of it and it would make an awesome commuter....BUT...I imagine it is not going to be cheap...

https://mynobe.com/

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > facw 10/17/2020 at 21:24

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Well even the Polaris Slingshot has a substantial take rate for the 5 speed manual. These don’t even offer the option and I think they are worse for it. This is one category of vehicle that really is the worse for it. You buy one of these for the novelty and a pure driving experience. There are plenty of other options for comfortable novelty and this is kind of a weird half measure. 

Oh, and it’s FWD. That’s also a bit of a bummer. 

DasWauto > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/17/2020 at 21:28

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I made the mistake of checking them out via their IG page recently and pretentious is absolutely the right word to describe the brand. 

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 10/17/2020 at 21:29

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Oh yes, I remember that. I actually really like the idea of it. Making a boutique   electric retro styled three wheeled microcar thing is such a fascinating idea. I think the market is there and I hope to see some around.

The problem with the Vanderhall is that it is a FWD automatic drivetrain in a type of vehicle known for pure driving experiences. Not all three wheeled novelty vehicles are the same and it feels like a weird half measure between a Morgan Three Wheeler and a Harley Trike albeit with unique styling. It’s just kind of more style over substance than I would want. 

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > DasWauto 10/17/2020 at 21:32

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Yeah I doubt I would enjoy talking with a Vanderhall owner while I’d probably enjoy talking with a Morgan Three Wheeler owner. It’s sort of style over substance in a way that attracts attitudes I don’t like.

If Polaris Slingshot owners are woke young people with a tendency to disregard traffic laws, Vanderhall owners are pasty middle aged people who don’t know what it is like not to have money. 

ranwhenparked > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 10/17/2020 at 21:53

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Wow, I missed that notice. The Nobe is literally the only electric car I've seen so far that I really want. If they do actually go on sale in the US, I am going to have one. Period. It doesn't suit my needs or driving habits at all, but I want the thing so bad and will have it as a 2nd or 3rd car for the hell of it.

ranwhenparked > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/17/2020 at 21:56

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There's a Vanderhall dealer near me, and I do see a few around town from time to time. If they were fully enclosed at $26,000, I'd probably have one. But, they just seem like too much of an impractical toy for my taste.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > ranwhenparked 10/17/2020 at 22:01

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It’s a lot of money for an automatic only FWD three wheeler. They look good but I’m not sold on the drivetrain. 

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > ranwhenparked 10/17/2020 at 22:25

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Yeah, I really like them as well...also (aside from the upcoming FIAT 500e) the only EV I’ve REALLY wanted ....BUT...they are working together with Sandy Munro to build it (a company that does a lot of auto manufacturing consulting with all sorts of automakers) and in their recent interview :

...It very much seems they are going to be going the ‘luxury toy’ type route to me, which saddens me as I’ll never be able to afford one, and I doubt they are going to become viable as a result. I think I read that they are targeting a price point of like $29,000 or $35,000 (that’s like $45k Canadian!) or something like that somewhere. They even had a segment in that interview talking about how fancy hotels could buy them as fleet vehicles for customers, etc...that kind of turned me off as it almost seems they were more for the business side of things and getting the most money out of them rather than making them more available to more people that would love to have them, if that makes sense :(

That’s a LOT of money for a small, less practical, less feature-filled car (as AWESOME as the car is) when you could go get a far more practical and capable brand new ICE vehicle, or almost a Tesla Model 3 (as much as I am not a fan of Tesla) for not much more or the same price that would be a lot more car for the money...

ranwhenparked > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 10/17/2020 at 22:32

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$29k would be doable - if I put $6k down, that’s only a $23k note. As an only car, it wouldn’t work. As a toy for running around - a toy with a back seat, usable luggage space, weather protection, and the ability to lock it - I’ll still be in. Now, if they stuck in a small gas engine, it would be the only car I’d ever need, but, whatever, you can’t raise venture capital for a new upstart automaking venture these days with a PHEV or pure ICE proposal, EVs are what get the funding.

I think they were originally shooting for a bit lower price, but bringing it in under $30k is probably going to be enough of a challenge. I don’t do advance reservations or deposits or anything like that. Put it on sale, available now, with an actual, concrete price tag and I’m in.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 10/18/2020 at 00:21

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At that price, I can't see it doing well at all.

whatisthatsound > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/18/2020 at 01:15

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Talking to a M3W owner is easy. You just pull over wherever we broke down at and ask what happened this time. We would be happy to answer while waiting for a tow.

Jim Spanfeller > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/18/2020 at 02:19

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Cheaper than a Morgan Three wheeler... I rank this as superior to the Sling shot but inferior to the Morgan. If it had a manual, I’d be much more tempted, but I wouldn’t kick one out of my garage.

Nauraushaun > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/18/2020 at 04:25

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I like it. It’s expensive but something this niche always will be.

I’d never have an automatic though. Or FWD. Imagine an awd auto caterham!

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > ranwhenparked 10/18/2020 at 08:40

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One thing I really like with the Nobe is it has two battery packs. A main one that powers the motive system of the car and a second that mounts in the interior that only does things like the heater and lights, etc . The second one is removable - it’s a little cumbersome, maybe, but it’s only around suitcase-sized and covered/designed to look like a suitcase. The idea is that you can bring that battery due to it’s size and charge it at work or wherever on a normal outlet.

So, even if you don’t have a place to plug the car, ITSELF, in, you can charge that battery up, meaning you get a bit more range because whatever is still left in the car’s main battery is only being used for propulsion...that would help with the range thing. It’d be cool if they’d make another removable battery, say, that you could latch to/plug in in the back seat that would act as an extender on the main battery too....you’d still have the ‘trunk’ up front for carrying things, but the extra battery in the back seat would give you longer range when needed.

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > BaconSandwich is tasty. 10/18/2020 at 08:42

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Same...if it was more like $22-25k, maybe....I want it to do well as I like it a lot, but...yeah....a bit worried at that price point.

Noodles > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/18/2020 at 09:50

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I saw one in Leesburg Virginia not long ago. Same color, same model.  https://oppositelock.kinja.com/dots-leesburg-va-1844262942

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > whatisthatsound 10/18/2020 at 11:43

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Haha yeah but breaking down builds character! So M3W owners have character out the wh azoo. 

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Jim Spanfeller 10/18/2020 at 11:46

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I think it is less gaudy than the Slingshot but even those have a decent take rate on the 5 speed. At the very least I think it is much better looking but it is also FWD for literally no reason while the other 3 wheelers are RWD which is a huge bummer for me. I'd take one over an automatic Slingshot but I'm not convinced I'd buy either of them.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Nauraushaun 10/18/2020 at 11:48

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It's the Karmann Ghia of 3 wheelers except with none of the humbleness. The auto only kinda kills it for me though.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Noodles 10/18/2020 at 11:50

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Oh yeah I remember that post. It looks a bit silly on a suburban divided four lane road, somehow moreso than parked outside a convenience store in Midtown.

Noodles > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/18/2020 at 11:56

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True. They look fun though. I'd give it a go.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Noodles 10/18/2020 at 11:59

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Yes, they look like fun, but I don't think I could help but think I might be having more fun.

Noodles > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/18/2020 at 13:44

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Yeah. That Nobe looks cool as hell

Jim Spanfeller > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/18/2020 at 14:50

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Actually, I’d argue that FWD makes more sense for a three-wheeler like this. FWD gives it two driven wheels rather than one, simplifies the drivetrain and chassis design by not requiring a driveshaft and/or a drive chain going to the rear wheel (which also saves a lot of space in the passenger area) , and allows the manufacturer to pick from a plethora of  FWD drivetrains already in existence. I do agree it ought to have a manual, though. 

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Jim Spanfeller 10/18/2020 at 15:09

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But this vehicle is about novelty and the single rear wheel being driven makes it more interesting to drive with more unusual handling characteristics. This car is all style and no substance. It’s not like they are putting high performance hot hatch motors in there. The Polaris Slingshot is at least RWD and offers a manual even if it looks dumb.

Jim Spanfeller > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/18/2020 at 15:27

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Even without a high-performance hot hatch motor, this still weighs significantly less than whatever hatchback or economy car the engine probably came from, so I imagine the power to weight ratio is still pretty darn good. Plus, without doors and with minimal bodywork, you feel like you’re flying along no matter what speed you’re going. I’ve ridden in a replica of an antique racecar with almost no bodywork before, and it felt like we were going 70 when we were only going 35. I imagine this would be a pretty similar experience, but in this case it’s also really low to the ground, which would make it feel even faster. In other words, vehicles like this don’t need lots of horsepower to be an absolute blast to drive. And while RWD is fun, in three-wheelers like this it can be a bit of a hazard. IIRC, one of the things people have criticized about the Polaris Slingshot is the RWD handling characteristics. Honestly, as long as torque steer isn’t causing any serious problems, I think a drivetrain like this in a vehicle like this is a great combination, and the only thing it really needs to be great is a manual option.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Jim Spanfeller 10/18/2020 at 15:57

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I suppose you are right about the handling being safer and more predictable with FWD but that’s just not the point of the thing. With a lot of horsepower that thing would be a deathtrap and I don’t expect it to 

What vintage racecar was it a replica of? That sounds like a ton of fun! 

Nauraushaun > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/18/2020 at 17:07

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Hmm, how so? I guess the Ghia was similarly cool but un-sporty. But at least the Ghia was RR with a manual!

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Nauraushaun 10/18/2020 at 18:14

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I suppose so. I like the idea behind the Vanderhall but not the execution. 

Jim Spanfeller > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/18/2020 at 18:16

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It was a 1918(?) Mercer Raceabout. One of the most thrilling automotive experiences I’ve ever had!

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Jim Spanfeller 10/18/2020 at 19:22

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Got any pictures? That sounds incredible! 

Jim Spanfeller > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/19/2020 at 00:49

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Sadly, no. But it was a very good replica. The guy said he built it by hand in his garage back in 1974 based around a Ford Pinto engine. That car showed me why old guys love vintage cars so much. That car of course had basically no safety features aside from some retrofitted seatbelts, basically no bodywork aside from the fenders ( which I believe were removable), and a monacle windshield for the driver only (passenger has to wear goggles) . The guy offered to take me for a spin in it and I agreed. As soon as we pulled out, the car took off like a rocket and as I was about to yell at him to slow down so we don’t get a ticket, I looked at the speedometer and realized we were only going like 25 mph. It was at that moment that I fell in love with the car :) Driving around town was even more fun, as at 35 mph the car felt like it was going highway speeds! And the car tops out at like 105! I can only imagine what 100 mph must feel like in that car... It probably feels like the world is ending. This was some of the most fun I’ve ever had in a car, and I wasn’t even the one driving... It sure didn’t look like an easy car to drive, though. It of course had power NOTHING, and I believe it was one of those cars where you have to do things like pump your own oil periodically and who knows what else. But that’s just all part of the glorious mechanical cacophony of chaotic joy that is this car. I think a lot of people from our generation don’t really appreciate vintage cars like this because we think they’re too old, slow, and difficult to drive and we don’ t really have nostalgia for them. But this car taught me to never underestimate a vintage automobile. I now want one badly.

Here’s a picture of a real one, turns out I got the year wrong and it’s a 1912. Imagine going 105 mph in 1912... The top speed of a Model T back then was about 42 and the speed limit was something like 18. This car was insane and I love it :)

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Jim Spanfeller 10/19/2020 at 00:57

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A real one definitely wouldn’t have gone that fast but with the more modern Pinto engine just maybe. Might be aero limited or gearing might not be there. 100 mph can be terrifying in a modern car. I wouldn’t want to be in that one at 50 mph.

That sounds like a memorable experience. I don’t get the apathy towards old cars from before a time where you would have had nostalgia for seeing them around and riding in them. That era of cars is so fascinating. They were just so raw back then. Really a new frontier. 

Jim Spanfeller > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/19/2020 at 01:18

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Nope, look it up, the top speed is actually 100 mph for the real one. It was one of the fastest cars in the world at the time. Hence why the guy wanted to build a replica of it! It was one of the first classic cars to really become valuable.

The racing drivers from that era were insane. You’d have to be to go that fast in these things. I’ve read that with the wood-spoked wheels, it was safer to go around corners at high speed by drifting because there was less risk of splintering the wheels! And often races were just as much about who could break down the least as who could go the fastest. A very interesting period of automotive history, for sure!

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Jim Spanfeller 10/19/2020 at 10:00

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That’s just insane. More insane than most things were from that era. 100 mph in that thing on 1910s wheels and tires?!?!?! I have to assume that for the top speed run they didn’t have that upright windshield. Did you ask how high he’d actually taken his replica?

Ah yes, back in the days when crash safety was designing the car to throw the driver clear of the wreck. 

Jim Spanfeller > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/19/2020 at 18:51

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There’s a really good Jay Leno’s Garage episode about the Mercer Raceabout you can watch if you like:

I have no idea how fast the replica could go, but I imagine the Pinto engine probably had about as much if not more horsepower than the Mercer engine. I wouldn’t be surprised if the guy never tested it, as just driving around town felt fast enough!

One thing I find interesting/tragic about the Mercer company was that they didn’t fail because of their cars being too expensive or unreliable or anything like that. They were some of the best sports cars money could buy at the time, everybody knew it, and they were doing pretty well as a company. The reason why the company ceased to exist is that all the important people in the company decided to celebrate their success by going on a cruise... on the R.M.S Titanic. Everybody died, and with no one left to continue running the company, Mercer just sort of ceased to exist.