Let's Talk

"Long_Voyager94" (yourenotavalidusername) 10/14/2020 at 10:21 • Filed to: car talk, thoughts

5

52

Vehicle packaging.

I personally find it a hassle and just a way for manufacturer’s to make more money off buyers.

For me personally, it keeps me from buying a new vehicle. I’m the kind of person who dislikes tech in a vehicle, so that leaves me with base models. Now I love the base model, but I want the best driving vehicle, so I also want the good suspension/drivetrain. I’ll use my Grand Caravan as an example.

We love the 2nd row bench, only available on the base models, but I hate the non-GT suspension ( we got lucky and found an SE that the PO had the GT suspension installed before delivery ). In order to get the better driving van, I have to also tack on thousands in tech and leather interior, neither of which I want.

Same goes for different color options. “Oh, you want the Indigo Blue, ya you have to go to the SXT to get that”.

I don’t know about most of you, but I personally have an issue spending more money for a vehicle I don’t like most of just to get the 1 or 2 things I do want.

What’s everyone’s thoughts on “packages” instead of being able to order exactly what you want?

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Long_Voyager94 10/14/2020 at 10:26

2

I would absolutely custom order a car to my specifications if it was possible for the main manufactures . You can do that with certain manufacturers and special editions. IIRC porsche, BMW, Volvo. But a dodge caravan? Other than municipal spec humdrum white van with rubber seats I don’t think they would bother.

jminer > Long_Voyager94 10/14/2020 at 10:27

6

I’m with you, this turned us off from getting a Subaru 2 years ago. We wanted a sunroof but that meant you had to get the premium trim which tacked on a bunch of driving assist tech we didn’t want.

Instead we bought a lightly used RAV4 in the top trim, but with drivers assistants that can be easily turned off (and stay off).

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Long_Voyager94 10/14/2020 at 10:27

1

Hey, Stranger. What keeps me from buying a new vehicle is dee-preesh. Full stop. And yes, base models all the way. Full stop.

How are you and yours holding up?

Just Jeepin' > Long_Voyager94 10/14/2020 at 10:27

3

I assume it’s all about the money. Offering each option separately would be a hassle for sales staff, the factory, etc. And of course dealers aren’t fond of ending up with some really weird combination of features if the buyer backs out.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > Long_Voyager94 10/14/2020 at 10:32

5

It makes sense for production purpose to some extent, but I hate it. I think for example the Mazda6 years ago had some package where if you wanted the NAV you had also upgrade the sound system which was like a 2k separate package or some nonsense? Colors being tied to trims is stupid and is helping kill interesting colors.

It’s a typical business model  that pushes for overconsumption and higher margins. It is what it is, as they say.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > jminer 10/14/2020 at 10:32

2

All that electronic crap to turn into e-waste later on.

Speaking of e-waste: I bought a used washer/dryer this summer and the lid has a lock on it and when the f***ing electronics acted up, the lid wouldn’t open and let me have my clothes back. So I pried it open and went to the used appliance store and bought a used washer for $100 and they delivered it for free and I’m washing clothes again. SMH

InFierority Complex > Long_Voyager94 10/14/2020 at 10:33

3

I’m sure everyone would prefer to choose all the options a la carte but I just don’t think that is feasible. 

Tripper > Long_Voyager94 10/14/2020 at 10:35

3

“ I don’t know about most of you, but I personally have an issue spending more money for a vehicle I don’t like most of just to get the 1 or 2 things I do want.”

Completely agree. I also don’t like vehicle tech or at least the infotainment portion of it.

I understand “packages” from the manufacturer side, but I also think if you are doing a custom/production order for a new car those “ package” rules should disappear unless there is a logistical reason that the change is impossible/very difficult.

For example, you normally can’ t have a manual with the top tier package ...if you special order you should be able to get it...unless a manual trans does not exist for that particular engine.

I also think custom paint options should be available for more cars and at a “reasonable” cost if you are ordering a new vehicle. This one is completely selfish however, I have no idea what the actual cost to a manufacture to change out a color.

rctothefuture > Long_Voyager94 10/14/2020 at 10:37

4

Th e history of spec ordering is pretty interesting. Up until the mid 80's you could order most domestics with almost any combo of color, interior, options, etc. Remember COPO Camaro’s?

Manufacturers realized that making these few one offs was eating into profits. So they look at what colors and options are most ordered and then spec them into packages to increase margin. It’s pretty successful because folks will want ONE feature, and they’ll pay more for THAT feature (sunroof, no sunroof, special wheels, nicer stereo, etc.) even if it includes things they don’t necessarily need. Auto maker pockets the extra cash and the packages stay.

Chevy still has “COPO” style ordering on a few vehicles. Play with their configurator on the 2500 HD’s or the Express vans. You can order all sorts of kooky vehicles. Even the new C8 can have an over ride. “Sir would like a brown C8 with white interior and orange seatbelts? Very well”. You just have to pay extra for it.

It’s funny you call out Dodge, they are the masters of “Oh, you want that? YOU GET ALL OF THIS”. Seriously, if you want a Shaker Challenger you have to buy 3 extra pac ka ges to get it. I don’t need Dynamic Handling, White Gauges and special rims. Just give me a rumbly hood damn it!

Sovande > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/14/2020 at 10:37

3

I am in total agreement with this. My Volvo stickered at just under $39,000. I bought it three years later with a full service history for $19,000. That’s a just under 50% depreciation and I have a very nice car which will last me for many more years.

But damn do I dream about a special order Volvo wagon complete with the overseas delivery package and trip to Sweden.

Future next gen S2000 owner > Long_Voyager94 10/14/2020 at 10:38

2

For paint, yeah, that’s a profit thing. Most of it is profit driven, but I think part of it is reducing build c o mplexity in the plants. That reduces costs for the manufacturer but also reduces build quality issues, which is good for everyone.

I may be way off base but those are my two thoughts.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Long_Voyager94 10/14/2020 at 10:39

2

That’s of course assuming that you could get a half decent deal with a special order to begin with instead of buying an aggressively marked down base van that had spent several months on the dealer lot that has most of what you want.

If custom ordering was more common you’d see more flexibility on that front. As it is, dealers want to be able to keep a steady inventory of 20 t rim Xs and order 15 of them with the driver redundancy package and “upgrade” 10 of those tp flat -o-matic big rims. They don’t want some intern to accidentally order a bright purple SUV with red and black cloth interior and a canvas sunroof or whatever. It wouldn’t sell and it is easier for them to have only a few basic combinations with a few color choices spread unevenly across the lot. 

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Long_Voyager94 10/14/2020 at 10:44

3

https://www.autoweek.com/news/a2035506/ford-cuts-equipment-combos-09-models/

It cuts manufacturing costs and simplified dealer inventory. I can’t find the article but when ford cut options on the 500 they were able to cut total costs by 9% which is huge. So yeah they could offer only base with upgraded suspension but you would be paying 10% more. Which would disinterest you even more from buying a new vehicle and be getting fewer features.   

jminer > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/14/2020 at 10:46

0

It’s definitely going to make cars not live as long as they used to. I have already owned one car with unrepairable issues, a ford Flex with the 1st gen Sync. It was awful, crashed all of the time and it also controlled the HVAC so the car was very unpleasant to drive as that got worse. I took it to the dealer once to try to fix it - they said they would have to replace everything sync related to maybe fix it and priced it for like $6k. I traded it into carmax.

Probably 2 years ago I bought a new washer and it definitely threw me off when I first encountered that lid lock.  Tried throwing a pair of socks into a load after it had filled and it wouldn’t let me...  This one also beeps and chimes at me when I use it.

Ssfancyfresh > Long_Voyager94 10/14/2020 at 10:50

3

I underdtand why they do it. Some of it is to batch more profitable options with items that most buyers want. But it’s also for optimizing production schedules. And in that vein, there’s an opportunity to realize cost savings on lean manufacturing and perhaps leverage economies of scale for certain parts.

It seems to me that the Japanese brands are especially bad at this. You basically buy a Subaru or Honda based on whether you want a sunroof or nav. The rest of the shit just gets thrown in based on whatever combination of those items you choose to order. Base cars only come in black, white, or silver. Interior color is specific to exterior color. Want a blue car with black interior? Nope. Light tan. Or dental chair grey.

I do think it’s helpful on the used car side of things. Isolating potential matches based on individual options can be frustrating (looking at you, Porsche) versus “ Honda Odyssey Touring” means here’s a van with leather, sunroof, nav, and vacuum.

You can have exactly what you want. You just need to buy a new Porsche.



Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Sovande 10/14/2020 at 10:50

2

But damn do I dream about a special order Volvo wagon complete with the overseas delivery package and trip to Sweden.

Do that. And order a basic one.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > jminer 10/14/2020 at 10:51

0

Yes, everything you’ve written here.

Sovande > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/14/2020 at 10:59

1

But I need massaging seats!

Cash Rewards > Long_Voyager94 10/14/2020 at 11:06

0

I agree with you in principle, but haven't run into an issue with it yet. When we last purchased new for my wife's honda pilot there were five trim levels. We got one right in the middle. The one below was missing features that would have been deal breakers, and the one above had things we didn't want. There was really only one thing I wanted that I did not get: memory seat for the driver. Would that have been nice to be able to add on? For sure. Would that have had to be a special order for that odd combo? Probably. Is making cars like that more expensive, and will that expense be passed to me, the consumer? Most definitely. So I get it from the manufacturer side, too. 

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > Long_Voyager94 10/14/2020 at 11:08

3

I may be the outlier here, but I try to option up my vehicles as much as possible. I like the leather, and the driving aids, and the sunroofs, and the self parking (which I never use), and the adjustable suspension. I don’t plan on daily-ing an out of warranty car, so the risk to me is pretty minimal with any unreliability. I’ve been super lucky with my car so far ( so far!) and haven’t had any issues that can’t be dealt with during an oil change.

I get why people want less tech and to eliminate (or minimize) the possibility of issues with said options, and it would be nice to be able to pick the one specific option and avoid things you don’t want, but I don’t ever see manufacturers going back to that model. It has to be both cheaper, and more profitable the way they do it now with big packages.

Tekamul > Long_Voyager94 10/14/2020 at 11:10

0

It all comes down to profits, and the expectations of average consumers. They will always push to the production model that makes the most profit while not cutting into market share too much, assuming market share generates more profit.

If they could make 1% more profit selling 1/4 the units, they would.

The only exceptions are CEO pet projects driven by ego, which are always limited by the board's tolerance.

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > Sovande 10/14/2020 at 11:11

1

I’m going to be in an almost identical situation with the GTI. Luckily, if the used car market holds for another 5 months, I’ll be in a pretty good spot compared to the buyout!

subexpression > Long_Voyager94 10/14/2020 at 11:11

1

I have a similar problem , but I think for a lot of the people I know the big packages probably do n’t end up costing extra  because they want a bunch of stuff anyway and using smaller numbers of standardized configurations reduces overall manufacturing costs.

Chariotoflove > Long_Voyager94 10/14/2020 at 11:12

1

I think that if you go a la cart, you drive up prices, and most of the public will end up choosing options that go together and would have made up the packages anyway.  

But I sympathize with your frustration. Maybe technology will advance to make individual choices more feasible. I personally would like the option to choose my color. 

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > Long_Voyager94 10/14/2020 at 11:16

1

I always found this annoying.

When I worked at the dealership we had several Jeeps, and Chryslers that we put aftermarket sunroofs in because we could put  one in for 400 bucks but to get the factory one you had to get the “sun and sounds package” that included an upgraded stereo. That package was 11-1300 bucks

Chariotoflove > WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI 10/14/2020 at 11:16

1

I’m another one. I like loaded cars. 

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 10/14/2020 at 11:19

2

The limiting colors to certain trims is the part that bugs me the most. Especially when the upper trims actually have less color options which makes no sense at all 

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/14/2020 at 11:26

0

This. Well, mostly this. Most big dealers groups have a buyer who’s only job it is, is to order new vehicles for the 3 Dodge dealerships under the um brella. 

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > Chariotoflove 10/14/2020 at 11:29

2

My inner 10 years likes gizmos. Plus, as vain as it sounds, I love showing off that my can can (slowly) parallel park and 90 degree reverse park itself. Non-car people lose their minds.

Chariotoflove > WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI 10/14/2020 at 11:34

1

Aside from all the genuinely useful stuff like auto up and down windows and memory seats, and cooled seats for that matter, I’m finding the safety features are great. Lane warnings and cameras are something I did  without before, but boy are they useful on a van with limited visibility in some directions.

ibRAD > WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI 10/14/2020 at 11:42

2

These days you could probably blow people’s minds just by parallel parking without any sort of aid.

Beefchips > Long_Voyager94 10/14/2020 at 11:47

0

The electro nics lifetime thing is interesting.... I suspect that these things are going to last a looong time, much longer than say a PC or iphone. The main differences IMO are that first Apple et.al. want their tech to wear out in 3-4 years cause the tech is still improving rapidly. They want consumers to have that extra reason to upgrade.

Perhaps more reassuringly, the semiconductor industry has a quality and reliability standard for automotive parts that’s much more stringent than we have for PCs etc. It’s essentially due to the danger of driving a car with suddenly-failing safety measures . So we really bend over backwards to make sure that automotive gets super high quality parts. Dollars to donu ts it’s the same for other manufacturer s in the auto electronics supply chain.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI 10/14/2020 at 12:01

1

Odd combos are hard to sell so many of them are never built unless some weirdo comes along and special orders. And no one ever special orders cars with so many incentives for buying off the lot. Makes getting a good color on the trim you want quite difficult. 

Long_Voyager94 > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/14/2020 at 12:05

0

I’m the type who drives my stuff until it’s not worth anything anyway, so depreciation doesn’t bother me much, especially when I could get exactly the vehicle I wanted instead of “close enough”.

We’re all good here, trying to load up on projects to keep me busy and keep the kids on top of school work.

Long_Voyager94 > WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI 10/14/2020 at 12:07

1

See and I’m the complete opposite. I hate the “driving aids”, touchscreens, leather, etc, etc.

I’m also the type who drives my vehicle til the wheels fall off, then rebuild it and drive it again, so when I buy a vehicle it needs to be exactly what I want. I don’t settle for “close enough”.

Long_Voyager94 > Ssfancyfresh 10/14/2020 at 12:09

0

Hmm, maybe Porsche will start building minivans....

Long_Voyager94 > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 10/14/2020 at 12:11

0

In all honesty, I would pay more to get exactly the vehicle I want long before I’d pay more for something loaded with things I don’t want.

Clearly the guy who originally bought my van thought the same way, he paid a grand total of $38,094 for my van when he bought/had it optioned at the dealer. He could have gotten a loaded GT for $32k at the time.

Long_Voyager94 > Tripper 10/14/2020 at 12:12

1

I can’t imagine paint costs more aside from the obvious costs of the paint itself, pretty much every vehicle is painted on a line before major assembly, so the options would get added after.

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > ibRAD 10/14/2020 at 12:14

0

Too true

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/14/2020 at 12:15

0

And since no one orders them, the manufacturer just stops maki ng them. Th us, eliminating the option altogether.

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > Long_Voyager94 10/14/2020 at 12:16

0

I certainly get why people choose to do it that way.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI 10/14/2020 at 12:28

2

Self fulfilling prophecy right there. Poor poor automotive color options. 

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/14/2020 at 12:48

0

RIP in peace

Mark Tucker > Long_Voyager94 10/14/2020 at 12:53

1

This drove me nuts the one (and probably only) time I ever bought a new car. It was a 2002 Mazda Protege, and Mazda was running a 0% financing deal at the time, but you had to buy off the lot to get it, no special orders. I had a specific list of requirements, and another list of preferences. It had to be a manual, with air conditioning, and not have power windows or locks (I was trading in a Ford Escort that had power windows and locks that rarely worked right, and I was sick of it). And I really wanted the good factory stereo, because I’ve never liked aftermarket units.

But to avoid power windows and locks, I had to forego the LX or ES trims and stick with the DX, which meant I also lost the tach. OK, fine, whatever... I’ve had plenty of manual cars with no tach, and I can always add an aftermarket one if I want. And I couldn’t get the really good stereo, but I could come close. And no alloy wheels or fog lights, either; DXs were plastic hubcaps and no frills.

Astonishingly, the dealership had two DX’s with AC and the good stereo: one in white, and one in... white. Not the dark green I wanted. There was a green LX manual that I thought about, but it had the rear spoiler on it, and for some reason Mazda in those days installed two CHMSLs on cars with spoilers: one in the rear window and another one in the leading edge of the spoiler. It looked stupid, and I didn’t want to make payments on something that I thought looked stupid every time I walked out to it, just to get the color I wanted. So I bought a wh ite one, and then added the factory-style fog lights, and called it good enough.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI 10/14/2020 at 12:56

1

But it does make you appreciate getting a truly good color all the more. I think the rarity of autumn metallic on the Chevy Cruze gives my car a lot of character. The beginning of my infatuation with fun vibrant colors!

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/14/2020 at 12:58

0

If the GTI special colors weren’t so goddamn expensive (they had like 20 special colors you could ch oose from a year or 2 ago) I would have loved to have a dark green one.

I love dark green cars.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI 10/14/2020 at 13:09

1

Oh yes, I remember that color. A true sight to behold! VW has summarily cancelled all their good colors as they wrap up selling the Mk 7 Golf.

The dark greens  like that are certified Very Fine™! The turquoise was also pretty good. And with the plaid interior, mmmmmmm. 

Sovande > WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI 10/14/2020 at 13:12

1

I want it all too. If there is an option, I want it. That’s why I have the car I have now - I spent months looking for that specific set of packages and in the end it was worth it.  Better suspension, stiffer chassis, sport seats, flappy paddles, navigation, etc. 

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Long_Voyager94 10/14/2020 at 13:26

1

I take that a step further and any car I buy, I assume to be essentially without resale value when I buy it. The last car I bought was my ‘11 Mazda 3. Paid $4k for it. When I’m ready to be rid of a car, I price it to sell and it’s gone.

HoustonRunner > Long_Voyager94 10/14/2020 at 13:29

0

For me it depends. For my daily, I have a fully optioned Suburban, and yes the cooled seats were in the “need” category for me (YMMV in northern states). I need the room for 4 kids, my experience is leather cleans easier than cloth, and I like the amenities.

For my project / weekend car, I’d love to find some manual seats to replace the power ones in the E28, and I don’t even have a working radio.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Long_Voyager94 10/14/2020 at 15:52

0

Ooh so much yes. New defender for example:

Why can’t you get steelies with the I6 engine?

Why can’t you get ventilated seats on a 4-c ylinder?

Ssfancyfresh > Long_Voyager94 10/14/2020 at 16:02

0

It only took them 50 years to make an SUV. it’s only a matter of time.