Cultural awareness vs. stereotyping

"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove) 09/24/2019 at 15:38 • Filed to: ruminations on society

10

71

I was having a conversation with a college student about academic pressure. I brought up how Asian students are often raised  with expectations of academic excellence, and how that can cause great stress. The girl got indignant and angry at me. She actually told me that I was a bad person for believing in stereotypes.

I put that off to naive college student idealism, mixed with our present-day “enlightened” sensitivity to anything that recognizes cultural differences. People, especially kids like this, are so ready to be offended and throw the racist label. But what I have learned as an educator, a mentor, and a parent, is that race and culture blindness can be as problematic in some situations as racial stereotyping. We have to have to make ourselves aware of the cultural traditions and pressures that make kids who they are, because they help shape the adults those kids become.

I can tell you for fact that the asian students in my classes , for example, are year after year at the top of the grade standings (not every single one, of course, but in the aggregate). I also have a number of friends from asian families who are raising their children and testify to the cultural imperative to succeed in school. And the statistics show that it’s a formula that works. One of the things I try to be sensitive to is the fact that it can create intense stress in a young professional student. Some people respond to pressure, and some freak out.

On the other end of the academic spectrum, our school district is Mexican immigrant heavy. There are a lot of families with parents who never had much schooling, but came here for opportunity and struggled mightily to make good homes and support their families. Some of them see the education system as a path to a more prosperous life for their kids, but others see a more urgent need for their kids to get into a trade or find a job so they can contribute to the family financial security as soon as possible. Those families don’t place as much priority on academic success. It’s not racial, it’s a product of the situation in which those families find themselves. The teachers I’ve talked to in the public school system who have had success are the ones who learned to appreciate the home environment and find ways to communicate with the parents about what school can do for their kids.

So anyway, I was just upset by this college kid, and I wanted to get this out. I want to make sure I’m always being sensitive to the cultures of the people around me without unconsciously pigeon holing them. 

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 15:51

1

Can relate, and your anecdotal experience reflects mine as well. My parents both grew up in poverty and eschewed higher education for jobs, but expected my generation  to make it into higher education (we did).

Academic excellence is an integral part of Chinese culture, dating back millennia (Wikipedia says that nationwide imperial examinations became prominent in the Tang dynasty) . Naturally, lofty things like “culture” and “academics” were most accessible to the urban and affluent.  So it was, and so it remains.

WilliamsSW > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 15:59

3

I’m guessing this student wasn’t Asian?

My wife is Chinese-American and would wholeheartedly agree with your assessment. I can see it in her, her parents, and her Chinese friends. They view education as essential - above al most everything else .

Are all Asian people like that? Duh, no - but it does seem like a common cultural difference.

Chariotoflove > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 09/24/2019 at 16:00

1

Both my parents were the first of their families to go to college.  My wife was too.  Beyond any expectations of schooling, what they got was a commitment to providing the opportunity to go as far as they could. That’s a real blessing, if parents are in a position to give it.

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 16:00

12

Good thing there are no stereotypes of white people!

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 16:04

1

“The girl got indignant and angry at me”

Did you gather that was actually the way she was brought up in her family, or that she was the exception to the norm that you’ve witnessed?

Chariotoflove > WilliamsSW 09/24/2019 at 16:07

2

She didn’t identify that way, but I saw some definite southeast asian in her face. Maybe some people try to escape or disavow their ethnicity? I dunno.

My first  Chinese tech gave me some fun terminology I hadn’t known.  She said she was ABC (American Born Chinese) vs. FOTB (Fresh Off The Boat).  I don’t know how much difference that makes in cultural assimilation.  I suspect it varies from family to family.  Her family was big on clannish-ness, as in dedication to the family group and traditions above personal accomplishment.  That put its own pressure on her, especially when her Dad and then her mom got sick.  She had to put a pause on her schooling to take care of them. What the entire family did have was the imperative to work hard.

Chariotoflove > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 09/24/2019 at 16:07

3

Right!

MAGA—make ary ans great again.

Chariotoflove > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/24/2019 at 16:11

0

She disavowed any such family influence reflexively , but it was hard to tell whether it was distancing herself from uncomfortable family reality or generic indignant reaction against racial profiling.

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 16:11

6

This comment out of context (or in) would bring so much heat on parts of kinja

Ash78, voting early and often > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 16:13

7

I learned a lot of Asian stereotypes FROM having Asian friends and coworkers. I’m always conflicted by that....like “Shouldn’t I be hearing this from an old, white bigot instead?”

Kidding, of course. But there is TONS of evidence that East Asian parents — especially those who have the wherewithal or opportunities to come to the US, place a high value on academics (sometimes rote; even at the expense of creativity or practical skills) and also engage in what’s called Authoritarian Parenting — the stereotypical Asian Dad Syndrome. It’s very real. And recognizing that can actually go a long way towards understanding people’s personalities and backgrounds.

But it’s not inherent/racist. I have to believe that there are at least a half billion fairly lazy Chinese people. We (in the US) just don’t get that exposure.

Spanfeller is a twat > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 16:13

3

I understand your idea, and no one should’ve gotten indignated by your comments. But I understand her point of view too.... “A sian” is a descriptor that englob es both a geographic area and a range of ethnicities, cultures, and aptitudes towards academia .... So it’s not a very precise  term to use when describing (if you allow me to indulge in stereotyping) people with east asian cultural backgrounds .

My guess is that this student you were speaking just wanted a reason to get angry at someone.

Chariotoflove > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 09/24/2019 at 16:14

6

I know. What I like about this corner of the webverse is that I can make that joke and not be crucified for it, because the folks here are smarter than that.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 16:17

1

Perhaps, in the future, the first question should be more direct:

What are the expectations of your academic success from your family?

Ash78, voting early and often > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 16:18

5

I also wanted to add that if you live somewhere that East Asians are 1-2% of the general population, the symptoms are exaggerated by sample bias — small Asian populations are usually very specifically motivated ...usually academics, medicine, engineering, etc.

If I visit my coworkers in SF, where basically every Asian culture is well represented, it runs the gamut just like any other race(s).

Chariotoflove > Ash78, voting early and often 09/24/2019 at 16:20

0

You phrased it perfectly. I personally know kids who have grown up under Asian Dad Syndrome and had to deal with it.

I had my own experience with lazy Chinese. I had another Chinese  tech a couple years ago. I ended up having to fire her. She did just about anything she could to minimize her effort at work.

Chariotoflove > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/24/2019 at 16:21

1

Looking back on the conversation, I can see that would have been a much better way to approach the topic.

Chariotoflove > Spanfeller is a twat 09/24/2019 at 16:23

3

Well, she was pissed off about doing poorly on a calc test.

It’s so tough sometimes to use the correct terminology.  “Asian” is indeed not very precise.

HondoyotaE38: A Japanese and German Collab...wait a minute > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 16:23

3

I really do hate these snowflake millennial little shits

Ash78, voting early and often > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 16:23

3

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 16:24

1

Unlike race there actually are cultural differences between people. This girl needs to learn that. Not acknowledging the differences leads to miscommunication and disdain.

Chariotoflove > Ash78, voting early and often 09/24/2019 at 16:27

3

I work around a very specific and unique subpopulation of asians, mostly all chinese. They are college educated and get visas specifically to come over here and pursue graduate degrees or postdoctoral fellowships in biomedical sciences. They are ambitious and hard workers, sometimes leaving behind families with children for years at a time to make their careers.  They are a large percentage of people in this workplace, and yet not a good cross section of the asian population at all.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 16:28

2

Gets to the point without making any assumptions (even if they’re correct).

Her anger may have been related to previous teachers or others in authority expecting more from her than others, purely because of her ancestry.

Younger siblings of exceptional students often run into this as well, especially if they have the same teachers a couple years later.

Future next gen S2000 owner > Ash78, voting early and often 09/24/2019 at 16:28

0

There was a freaking book on it. Tiger Mom I think was the title.

Chariotoflove > HondoyotaE38: A Japanese and German Collab...wait a minute 09/24/2019 at 16:29

1

I’m just determined to raise my child to not be like that.

Chariotoflove > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/24/2019 at 16:31

2

Yes, and that’s part of talking this out. If I can come around to a better way of handling people and conversations like this next time, I’ll be more effective.

WilliamsSW > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 16:35

1

Those are traits that my wife’s family share, also. I haven’t really heard ABC all that much, but FOB is very common — and derogatory, by the way.

Perhaps people that didn’t grow up with that educational imperative get offended by it.

Future next gen S2000 owner > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 16:35

8

Stereotypes shouldn’t exist but damn they do and for a reason. Somewhere we gone from raising kids to be functional adults to raising them to be.....something else. It seems to me people get upset because they’ve been told/ raised to get upset at certain things. It’s become the expected reaction. It’s no longer understanding why someone holds that view and trying to combat it through empathy and reasoning. It’s become you are wrong and should be shamed. That seems to only hardened peoples stance. No one wants to be told they are wrong.

I’ll bet you a case of good whiskey the student didn’t bother to ask why you believed the way you did. How you came to that conclusion.

I recently saw a school banned To Kill A Mockingbird . That’s a damn shame. You could make a hell of an education out of banned books.

Maybe it’s just me but exposing people and making them feel uncomfortable in their own skin can be a healthy way of dealing with hard issues. Pretending that those issue don’t exist is doing a disservice to everyone.

WilliamsSW > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 16:39

5

Oh come on - by using “Asian” you’ve narrowed down the 7.6  billion people on this planet to., , ummm 4.5 billion. 

BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 16:40

3

I’ve found that Colombians are a mixed bag. M y parents wanted us to focus on doing well academically above everything else. They had us focus on our studies above everything else and it sure as hell paid off. I’m about to graduate with a bachelor of science in finance degree in December and my sister will get her neuroscience degree from an Ivy League school whose name I’m withholding in two years or so. It sure as hell paid off. They both got masters in business administration and wanted us to be even more successful. I’ve only ever worked one job in my life and it was a summer one to keep me occupied more than anything else. It really depends with every family.

Tl;dr study hard  or else chancla

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 16:45

2

What’s hilarious is the term “Aryan” was originally used to describe middle eastern people.

facw > HondoyotaE38: A Japanese and German Collab...wait a minute 09/24/2019 at 16:45

4

Unless we’re talking about a grad student, they probably aren’t a millennial anyway.

ranwhenparked > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 09/24/2019 at 16:46

0

Wait, aren’t we supposed to be like, pedophiles and neckbearded basement dwelling incel mass shooters , or something?

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > Future next gen S2000 owner 09/24/2019 at 16:48

3

That book and its author make me want to hurl.

She’s proud of it because her kids took the pressure and made it out (so far). So many do not and become suicidal. Advocating one parenting style as “superior” over another is sort of like going to a health seminar for disadvantaged groups and saying  “I’m rich, here’s how I stay healthy.”

Chariotoflove > WilliamsSW 09/24/2019 at 16:50

1

That’s why as a non-Chinese person, I don’t use the terms in conversation. It’s not really my place.

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > ranwhenparked 09/24/2019 at 16:50

0

But how would a basement dwelling neckbeard incel dance?

See above

Chariotoflove > Future next gen S2000 owner 09/24/2019 at 16:52

1

People prefer their echo chambers, which is what college campuses really are, btw.

And you are correct, reaction was instant and aggressive.

To Kill a Mockingbird was a fantastic book that I was introduced to by my school. I hope we’re not inching toward Fahrenheit 451 .

Chariotoflove > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 09/24/2019 at 16:55

1

We don’t need your facts here.

ranwhenparked > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 09/24/2019 at 16:56

1

Also, white dads at weddings. Until they get drunk and start hitting on the bride's work friends instead. 

Future next gen S2000 owner > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 16:56

2

No, just towards 1984 .

Spanfeller is a twat > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 16:56

1

To be honest, I can imagine she would’ve gotten angry at you regardless of what term you used. I doubt it was a matter of respect for a group of people, it sounds more like she just wanted to call you out for any possible excuse 

Chariotoflove > BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo 09/24/2019 at 16:58

2

I only really new three Columbians to any extent, one of whom was my boss. But all were very well educated, and supported in that path by very proud parents. When family is against you, it’s swimming up stream, but with family behind you, it feels l ike you can do almost anything.

BigBlock440 > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 09/24/2019 at 17:01

2

Like Caucasian?  

WilliamsSW > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 17:01

1

Always an excellent choice. I don’t use those terms either, myself. 

Chariotoflove > Future next gen S2000 owner 09/24/2019 at 17:02

0

Ugh. That may be, but a much different form of domination based on “ correct” thinking.

Chariotoflove > Spanfeller is a twat 09/24/2019 at 17:02

0

Probably.

HondoyotaE38: A Japanese and German Collab...wait a minute > facw 09/24/2019 at 17:16

0

Oh yeah, those little Gen Z fuckers, AKA the freshme n at my school. So. Damn. Annoying. I despise  th em all with a burning passion, also am glad my little freshman sister is nothing like them.

HondoyotaE38: A Japanese and German Collab...wait a minute > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 17:16

1

Do the world a great service by doing that please and thank you

Future next gen S2000 owner > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 17:24

1

The beatings will continue until morale improves!

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 09/24/2019 at 17:26

2

It’s true. 

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 17:29

1

I have little to add to this other than this is good Oppo discussion. 

For Sweden > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 17:32

1

Or even worse, Make Alsatians Great Agai.. I can’t even type it without feeling sick  

For Sweden > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 17:34

1

Cultural-specific characteristics are a foundation of modern applied psychology !

You should just be ready to discard them when presented with contradictory evidence at the small group or individual level.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 17:46

5

Meh... some people put effort into getting offended over anything and/or everything.

The fact of the matter is, there ARE differences between cultures and how they approach/value education. We are NOT all the same.

And we sure as shit are not all “equals”. JBeing treated like equals isn’t the same thing as actually * being* equal.

I think people like this particular student don’t understand that.  And I’d say this student is naive about how the world really is.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > For Sweden 09/24/2019 at 17:54

0

Make Alaskans Great Again!!!

Bring back Sarah Palin!!!!

I think I’m seeing Russia!!!!

Chariotoflove > Future next gen S2000 owner 09/24/2019 at 18:03

0

That’s working in state government, all right.

Chariotoflove > Snuze: Needs another Swede 09/24/2019 at 18:05

0

Thank you.  That was my goal.

Chariotoflove > For Sweden 09/24/2019 at 18:06

0

Breathe deeply.  It’ll be alright.

Chariotoflove > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 09/24/2019 at 18:07

1

Don’t think less of me for missing Sarah Palin.  So many fantasies...

Chariotoflove > For Sweden 09/24/2019 at 18:08

2

That’s the thing. In today’s either/or mind set, the importance of empirical data has taken a big hit.

Chariotoflove > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 09/24/2019 at 18:11

0

Hi t it on the head on all counts.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 18:27

1

Do any of them involve having an encounter in the woods after you both successfully fight off a bear and shoot a buck?

Chariotoflove > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 09/24/2019 at 18:35

0

Wha...GET OUT OF MY HEAD!

BigBlock440 > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 09/24/2019 at 20:04

0

My how we’ve regressed in 2 years.  A statement like that in 2015 would get you branded as a vile, racist republican.

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 20:21

0

The way things are going it’s like we are developing a mindset of culturally aware stereotyping! Which is pretty stupid and spectacularly misguided.

But then everyone is different even if we are much the same...

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 09/24/2019 at 20:43

1

I had 3 friends of asian decent and each had “tiger parents” one had a nervous breakdown, but became a doctor, another went off to college and became a hippie and works in an admission office, and the third spent 9 years in school to become a physical therapist. I suspect they kept paying the last due to family pride. You should motivate your kids, but at some point you reach a point of going too far.

Chariotoflove > SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media 09/24/2019 at 21:06

3

I feel like in order for us to benefit from our diversity, we need to appreciate and understand it, which means we need to first recognize it.  If there are cultural trends and traditions, we need to see them, not try to squash them.

f86sabre > BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo 09/24/2019 at 21:50

1

I do a lot of on campus recruiting and hiring of engineers. I have noticed that the candidates I have seen from  Columbia, Peru and Venezuela have, as a group, been of a high caliber. They show up prepared, are eager to learn, ask good questions, build relationships, are outgoing and show appreciation for the opportunities. I’m not saying every one is perfect, and I’m not saying that I haven’t seen those attributes in folks from other background. I’m just saying that those communities have good momentum right now.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 09/24/2019 at 22:35

0

W orld’s highest suicide rates: Japan, followed by Hong  Kong.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 23:33

1

Hey big boy... let's do it...

Chariotoflove > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 09/25/2019 at 00:23

0

Hnggg...

phenotyp > BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo 09/25/2019 at 09:19

1

Star for the to;dr chancla.