I went to an amazing dealership in Düsseldorf

"Nauraushaun" (nauraushaun12) 08/18/2019 at 16:14 • Filed to: None

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I didn’t really know what I was getting into. It was on The Internet as a cool car spot so I went.

It turns out Classic Remise is this huge cluster of dealerships, all in one building in Düsseldorf, Germany. I’m not entirely sure how it works, but they had all manner of old and new cars and appeared to be an actual Donkervoort dealership which is sort of amazing.

Now. As per my recent posts, I’ve been to a Ferrari and Lamborghini museum in the last week, and the Pagani factory, and BMW before that. It’s been a good week or two and I don’t mind saying that I’m not easily impressed just now. They had M1s, whatever. LM002, whatever. They had a Huayra, cool but whatever. Last week I stood where that car was built.

But they got me. The Donkervoorts, the 918 and CGT (the best and most beautiful car that will ever be built), the Ferrari 512BB which had me captivated for whatever reason. The Zagato Aston Martin shooting brake. Lots of cool stuff.

Somehow I did almost a lap of the place without noticing a car. A car I’ve had a love affair with since the first concepts but never seen in real life. When I first saw the Alfa 8C, sitting with a Citroën SM and F40, I actually gasped. It was the wrong color, and looked frumpy with the roof up, but dammit it was cool.

Excuse the pics. Many were behind glass or barely visible, like the new Ford GT and the 918. The car spotting game is more about checking boxes than glamour ;)

Also. There were many RS Porsches. But I can't remember which ones are the super rare ones and which are not. So eh

Of course, we don’t get these in Australia so cool to see

Cgt as viewed over the rear sunroof of a Lagonda

Uracco seemed so small and lithe despite being a 2+2 mid engine layout! So uncommon!

Cool to see as it was strangely absent from the Porsche museum in Stuttgart a few years back. Is a 722

This was my first impression as I walked in the car park. Green Gwagon, two or three DS’ and a Corvair

Uracco “back seats”

gmanmtb > Nauraushaun 08/18/2019 at 16:19

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There’s place like this just outside of Stuttgart too, it even has a restaurant attached

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > Nauraushaun 08/18/2019 at 16:25

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I adore the XL-1. I want one beyond all reason. 

Svend > Nauraushaun 08/18/2019 at 16:38

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Oh man. A Lancia Aurelia B24 spider (top right). 

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > Nauraushaun 08/18/2019 at 17:08

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Of all of them, I want that Porsche 356 and the SM the most!!!

ranwhenparked > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 08/18/2019 at 17:31

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Same, shame the technology was too bleeding edge to mass produce it affordably. 

MrDakka > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 08/18/2019 at 17:44

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We all do. Perfect little car to zip around town doing errands

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > Nauraushaun 08/18/2019 at 18:12

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That’s quite a place...the exotica is mostly lost on me once I saw that Volvo. H ow many price tags didn’t make your eyes water?

404 - User No Longer Available > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 08/18/2019 at 18:56

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The XL1 actually somehow reminded me of the Phantom Corsair.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 08/18/2019 at 20:13

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I not-so-patiently wait until VW XL1 and BMW i8 inform a production sports car that has the right blend of real world applicable performance when called for, and efficiency otherwise, with a runabout electric mode, and an on-board fueled engine to generate electricity and direct drive/regenerative charging system.

(no need for stratospheric top speeds, but good acceleration at normal road speeds and a reasonably high cruising and passing capability)

Sleek form and futuristic yet timeless good looks, rearward weight bias and rear drive or electrified AWD, light and pure steering... a true mid-engined runabout 2-seater, or 2+2/2+0 cabin like i8 and Evora.

This can happen with current PHEV technology, if calibrated and equipped with the right balance of battery packs, electric motors, small power-efficient engines that don’t need a lot of untapped power overhead, and variable drive planetary gearsets, engagement clutches, and 1.5:1-0.5:1 range CVT final drive.

Maybe not muscle-car brutally fast, but plenty of real-world roadgoing performance, good handling, and variability between efficient electric stop-and-go, fueled long-range cruise, and combined burst sport-mode performance.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > 404 - User No Longer Available 08/18/2019 at 20:24

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Aerodynamics tends to lend itself to some rather specific shapes when applied to ground-based passenger vehicles.

What is truly amazing is that someone had this mostly figured out in the late 1930s, and we are only now starting to take it seriously. 

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/18/2019 at 20:25

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You just described the Lexus LC500h. 

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 08/18/2019 at 20:33

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Except that LC500H is not mid-engined…

LC500H seems interesting to me, except 2 things... all the reviews seem to say that the non-hybrid is the distinctly better car.

It is still a 6-figure car as new, and I am thinking something that would be mainstream accessible should be under half that, like Nissan 370Z kind of money, from a company that isn’t bankrupt, and hasn’t spent significant R&D on that platform in well over a decade.

I’d consider an LC500H in that new inspiration-series in Nori Green Pearl... if it were affordable, and I’d really prefer a cleaner roof line without floating c-pillars, and with consistent A-pillars to suit the windshield and blacked-out roof, not weird art-school odd design. The rest of the car looks great.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/18/2019 at 20:41

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Your desire for mid-engined and hybridization at 370Z prices are mutually exclusive. Both kinds of engineering are heinously expensive to get right. Combine both on a car and it cannot possibly be sold for less than 6-figures and still make a return on the investment.

As for the LC variants, yes the V8 is way more visceral and a thrill to drive. But I am glad they made the hybrid because it shows that once we do finally run low on  petrol, we can still drive amazing cars.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 08/18/2019 at 22:23

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I don’t think it is mutually exclusive.

Mid-engined chassis are not prohibitive. Fiero, MR2, 914, Fiat X1/9, and others prove that. And for what I describe, component sharing and commonality of transverse drivetrains would be acceptable. As would steel, aluminum and composite construction, rather than extensive aluminum castings, and carbon fiber composite construction from more exotic techniques.

Voltec 2, Hybrid Synergy Drive, and other PHEV drivetrains already exist in affordable platforms. Re-arranging the layout for the batteries to sit forward of the powertrain, rather than behind it, isn’t a new technique from the perspective of fuel tanks and drivetrain location.

i8 uses a MINI drivetrain, tuned up, amidships, and an electric motor unit on the front axle... there is nothing exotic about that, it is the carbon monocoque that is the exotic bit, and the luxury accoutrements, and limited production volume that add to the expense and price tag.

If I had a bunch of money, I would be sorely tempted to refit a Fiero spaceframe with 2nd-Gen Voltec 2 drivetrain, in that layout, with a futuristic body and interior, and upgraded suspension fitted to the steel space-frame. That sort of technology is not beyond the reach of major automakers, and should be feasible for mass production and reasonable economies of scale.

If C8 can do what Supercars of decades past did, this sort of thing should be doable for 35-45K. Be it from GM, Toyota, VW, Ford, FCA, or whomever.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/18/2019 at 23:02

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All of the cars you mention were designed and built prior to current crash test and safety standards; aside from the i8 and C8, neither of which are affordable AND also hybrid.

Parts sharing can happen, yes. But the economy of scale to engineer a mid-rear hybrid vehicle that also meets current standards just isn’t there.

Look, I want for this to be a thing as much as you do. More choices is always better for car enthusiasts. But I feel like you’re not looking at the whole picture here. GM engineering the new MR Vette is a bit of a coup. But I do not for one second believe they can actually make any money on it at the base price. And you surely have noticed they aren’t selling a hybrid version. 1) It doesn’t fit their brand at all and 2) the additional cost and complexity would put that into the low 6-figures easily.

I’dove to eat my words and be proven wrong. But I'm not holding my breath. 

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 08/19/2019 at 00:30

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What is so drastically different from what I describe to a tuned up Chevy Volt or Prius Prime PHEV, with the drivetrain moved behind the seats, just as Fiero did with the Citation drivetrain, and MR2 did with the Corolla/Celica drivetrain, and Lotus Evora does with a supercharged version of the Camry/Avalon V6 in a car that sells mere low hundreds of units per year.

If Evora was built in a Toyota factory, and sold anywhere near the volume where Camaro, Challenger, or Mustang sold... the economy of scale would easily cut the costs significantly... there is nothing seriously more mechanically advanced than the 370Z, aside from Lotus’ suspension expertise, and some carbon fiber bodywork .

Arguably, a mid-engined car should have more crumple-zone and less complication to design a front end crash structure, than building one around the entirety of the drivetrain of a front-engined, front drive economy car like Volt or Prius Prime.

A n engine over 22 0hp, slightly hotter motors and controllers, and 20Kwh battery packs should easily perform similarly to BMW i8, without the exotic chassis construction and luxury appointments... at MR2/Fiero prices adjusted for inflation, a car like that would be as big or bigger disruptor than C8 corvette, by being more widely attainable.

Nauraushaun > SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media 08/19/2019 at 04:01

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Haha I didn’t really look. I don't need depression on holiday. I think I looked at one or two though and they weren't so bad! 

Nauraushaun > Svend 08/19/2019 at 04:11

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Fancy? Tell me more? 

Nauraushaun > gmanmtb 08/19/2019 at 04:15

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Aw man. Wish I’d known when I went to Stuttgart.

This one did have a restaurant. I actually got trapped in a thunderstorm while there and had to walk to the station. So I stayed in and ate strudel while gazi ng at the cars. Was excellent.

Svend > Nauraushaun 08/19/2019 at 04:44

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The Lancia Aurelia b24 spider was sold between 1954 and 1955, in 1956 it became the Lancia Aurelia b24 convertible and sold up to 1958 . It got a few tweaks from the earlier car namely the front and rear bumpers became one piece each and the windscreen no longer wrapped around and fixed quarter lights along with a wider and lower bonnet air scoop.

All came with the 2,451cc motor. The most desirable are the 1954-5 Spider America with the twin front and rear bumpers. They typically go for two to three times the price of a later b24 convertible.

1954-5 b24 Spider America. Around £1.5million+

Later 956 b24 convertible. Around £500,000+

I love the earlier one with the twin bumpers that look almost like a moustache. Almost framing and highlighting the grille.

Jewish Stig > Nauraushaun 08/19/2019 at 07:42

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Looks super cool!
There is a very simillar place in Berlin also, Classic Remise.
Been there a couple of months back,
I magine a Classic Car Dealer+Part Shop+Service+Resturant+E vent hall .

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/19/2019 at 09:18

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Batteries like to be kept cool, so they need to have effective ventilation. Which means they also cannot just be placed anywhere in the vehicle simply because that is where they fit or is most convenient.

A FF/FR drivetrain actually offers superior crash protection be the engine block can engineered to deform and absorb energy from a collision.

Packaging not only an ICE drivetrain AND then the additional hybrid components into an already tight MR chassis presents extremely difficult challenges. One cannot simply put the battery pack up front and hope for the best. We have seen copious times the dangers of damaged hybrid battery packs catching fire when they are punctured. Which means that designing such a car means that the manufacturer has to plan for essentially two fuel tanks.

And making a hybrid means using a battery pack large enough to actually power the car, and preferably also provide useable range when driving on electrons. So that means a rather large battery pack. Which means weight. A MR car typically is thought of as being nimble owing to the engine being placed near the middle of the car. A large battery skewers that ideal scenario.

The drivetrains you are suggesting should be used have been designed around placing the battery low in the chassis, under the floor. Doing that in a MR car would probably mean a raised seating position which is less than ideal.

I am not an engineer, so I fully admit I could be entirely wrong about all of this. But I suspect that building the car you are suggesting is no where as simple as we would like it to be.

Nauraushaun > Svend 08/19/2019 at 14:06

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Jesus that is expensive. Awesome 

Svend > Nauraushaun 08/19/2019 at 14:09

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But so beautiful.

I’d love to have the money (and the house for it) to have one sat in the middle of the living room so I could just look and admire it while the adverts came on TV. 

Nauraushaun > Jewish Stig 08/19/2019 at 14:13

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This was also a classic Remise! If you missed that in the text. It was all those things. 

Nauraushaun > Svend 08/19/2019 at 14:20

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Haha, I must say. To my eye it looks much like any ol d roadster. It is nice though. It's not really the era for me. 

Svend > Nauraushaun 08/19/2019 at 15:12

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The 1950s cars are just so beautiful.

Like the Italian Triumph 2000 Italia Coupe from 1959 - 62.

Triumph chassis and mechanical s were shipped to Italy and the body designed by Giovanni Michelotti and built at Al fredo Vignalle in Turin.

Triumph late reneged on the deal for 1,000 units and cancelled the order after just 329 chassis were sent.

I mean just look at it. It’s just exquisite.  

Jaguar XK120C

Aston Martin DB3 Drophead

Aston Martin DBR1

Austin Healey 100 BN1

and the later 1960s Austin Healey 3000 Mk3

Alvis TC 108G

Alvis TD 21

etc...

Cé hé sin > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 08/19/2019 at 16:23

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Me too, but they’re still going for €100,000!

I’v e got as far as sitting in one.

Nauraushaun > Svend 08/19/2019 at 17:02

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Something about the round headlights. It doesn’t speak to me. I hear people say cars all look the same or cars from some eras look the same. That’s the feeling I get. Obviously they’re not actually the same. But I struggle to really differentiate them in meaningful ways.

Except the healey. I've seen a few of those

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 08/19/2019 at 18:43

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Chevy Volt 2nd-gen drivetrain and battery pack, forward is to the left. Just imagine it with the engine turned 180-degrees, and the front of the car pointing to the right.

how is that drastically different, except adding a Chevy Bolt-like front axle motor unit... but Voltec 2 has 2 electric motors in the transaxle housing, where i8 is a through-the-road hybrid system, where the car’s motion propelled by the rear wheels, generates power from the front wheels in cruise mode.

BTW... Chevy Volt 2 has a 50 mile electric range with an 18.4Kwh battery pack, and weighs 3500lbs.

The i8 coupe and roadster after a slight update has 18 miles electric range, with an 11.7 KwH battery pack, and weighs 3500lbs also.

I’d say that is significantly less than the 60-100KwH full-floor battery packs in BEVs like Tesla.

The batteries are a risk, but they are centralized, encased in multiple enclosures, and cooled.

The only way to avoid battery risk and battery issues is to go ICE-only, and basically go back to an MR2  Fiero for the modern day idiom... and not take advantage of the electric efficiency in stop-and-go or electric mode driving, and have to build in more engine overhead for performance driving, rather than combining the ICE and electric drive in a hybrid sport mode.

gmanmtb > Nauraushaun 08/19/2019 at 22:15

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Sounds fantastich. I just checked, it’s a dealership and high end storage facility to put things on display and there are a few. Motorworld it’s called

Nauraushaun > gmanmtb 08/21/2019 at 03:26

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If I'm ever in Stuttgart again...