Race Car Dreams

"CaptDale - is secretly British" (captdale)
07/22/2019 at 13:07 • Filed to: C4 Corvette, Race car

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I share this because apparently people don’t know about the Callaway C4 LM-GT gt2 cars that were made with the C6 Supernatural streetcar (what Callaway called their C4 supercar).

Update: If you were unaware Rock Agusta raced 2 of these C4 LM-GT cars. I just found this amazing photo!

I need

DISCUSSION (12)

Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast > CaptDale - is secretly British
07/22/2019 at 11:41

Ye ssssss

CaptDale - is secretly British > Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast
07/22/2019 at 11:43

I am not too hot on the front end, but the whole car overall especially the rear is fucking gorgeous. I wish I could afford to just buy one of these.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > CaptDale - is secretly British
07/23/2019 at 11:14

Turning a C4 into a racecar is a curious decision. What class is the car going to run in and what sanctioning body are you going to play with?

CaptDale - is secretly British > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com
07/23/2019 at 11:46

There are a few SCCA classes I think I could fit it in especially production, though I will have to read their rules closer to double check. I also plan to AutoX it quite a bit and find some local hillclimbs (I only know of one). Other than that I am going to try and at least keep it weekend road fun too, which I know for most people would be hard but all I want is to be able to keep plates on it and I’ll street drive it XD

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > CaptDale - is secretly British
07/23/2019 at 12:50

Ah, I was thinking you were looking to roadrace the car, of which I don’t think there are really no good class options to do so with a C4 any more. SCCA autocross classes have no relation to SCCA roadracing classes. Besides, building a racecar from a street car is the very most expensive way to go racing, and having any kind of emotional or sentimental involvement with a racecar only leads to bad things. If you were considering roadracing in the future, I would’ve urged to you to pickup a used spec miata or a used IT car of some kind for $10k or less and go at it.

I’ve always thought hill cli mb ing would be fun , even if you’re not actually racing , but they tend to be pretty few and far between.

CaptDale - is secretly British > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com
07/23/2019 at 12:56

Well I tried to buy a pre built c4 race car, but I didn’t sell the GTO in time to buy that one. I have no issue taking my time making it into a good car to race.

They can still race in production class SCCA road racing. That is what the guy I was gonna buy one from was doing if I recall. Either way they are “quick enough to hang with faster cars if you are a good racer or faster than the Miatas if you are bad at it.” quote from a C4 racer XD

I mean if anything I can just track day etc.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > CaptDale - is secretly British
07/23/2019 at 13:48

They’re not classed in any of the production classes. Nationally, they’re basically listed in GT1 or GT1-ST (which are tube-frame classes where you’re running against former trans-am cars from the 90's, or a $ 100K build), or the 1984 only is listed in ITR.

Outside of that, they could run in STO (say production class level of preparation (only partial tube frame construction ) , but with DOT sticky tires instead of full slicks) , but that’s an expensive place to play and I’m not sure how you c ou ld make a C4 competitive . The STO /U classes are intended as a place for former world challenge/ grand am cars to play. These were big dollar, professional racecar builds when they were new, and big dollar cars to run used.

There’s always the option of a regional only ITE class (literately IT everything), but that can also quickly become an expensive way to play. Some regions have also have SP “super production” type regional-only classes that a C4 might fit into, but that has the same caveats of cost and likely hood of competitiveness.

The GCR will be your bible. https://www.scca.com/pages/cars-and-rules . What class you want to land in will directly effect some of your early decisions in the build like the roll cage. An IT/ITE type roll cage is a very different animal than a production/STO/ GT cage, along with a fuel cell (or not, and where/how it would be located ). At the production/STO level, how you ti e the cage and reinforcement tubes into the suspension pickup points will directly influence every other aspect of suspension design and setup.

The thing about horsepower is that how fast you’re going around the racetrack has absolutely nothing to do with how much fun you’re having roadrac ing , but it is directly related to how much money you’re spending to do it. The fun part is almost entirely related to how much competition you have and how close it is.

Using tires an example, the guy in our region who used to race a 93 C4 in ITE in the early 00's was running a $1200+/set of tires that lasted not more than one day. He was using 2 sets of tires/weekend to play with a 300hp/3,000lbs car in the same run group as me. I was running a $700/set of tires on a 130ishhp/2200lbs FWD car that lasted exactly one weekend. The spec miata guys run the exact same $700/set tires as me, but get 3-4 race weekends out of set of tires to go about the same speed as me around the track. The vette driver was spending probably close to 3x the running costs I was (factoring in more expensive consumables like hubs and brakes, and that have a correspondingly shorter life as weight and hp increase), to play in the same run group as me but to go 2-4 seconds a lap faster around the track.

CaptDale - is secretly British > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com
07/23/2019 at 13:52

Well sounds like I’ll just build something I can track day and AutoX and maybe do some event.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > CaptDale - is secretly British
07/23/2019 at 14:14

That may be a more viable goal for a C4. Even outside the question of class/competitiveness, I imagine you might run into a never ending string of parts availability issues keeping one going at this point. 20 years ago, lots of people were playing racecar with them and there was the corresponding parts support to go with it. I learned some aspects of this problem with my racecar, as the 1st gen integra was never tremendously widely raced at the street-car based level, and they were something of an odd duck as a honda platform. Parts tend to be correspondingly scare, and that hasn’t gotten better now that it’s 30+ years old. Were I to build another racecar, running costs, class competitiveness and parts support would be my very first considerations. Some folks tried to tell me this as a 17/18 year old kid wanting to play racecar via turning the car I had into one that is only marginally competitive for the class. I wish I had listened.

These days, if you want to play with racecar with an old vette, a C5 is probably the best answer. They’re still expensive to run in terms of consumables, but there’s a variety of classes to play in competitively at varying leve ls of preparation, and lots of folks playing with them means easy and widespread parts support.

Autox and the occasional track may also be a better goal if you really care about the car. Road racecars are fundamentally disposable. They’ll get used up eventually one way or another, and it can easily happen at any time through no fault of your own. One of the differences between autocrossers and track day folks is that many of them are emotionally involved with the car. Whether it is a daily driver or otherwise, it is often a way to play with the car they’re invested in.

For most road racers, the racing is why you’re there (its a hell of a drug). The car you happen to be racing is much more of a tool to let you play, rather than being the point of why you’re there. Being emotionally involved with the car can set you up for heartbreak and financial ruin.

CaptDale - is secretly British > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com
07/23/2019 at 14:31

IDK. Parts seem reasonably available for everything I have looked for. I think we are hitting the point the aftermarket has picked up a lot of the parts seeing as these can gotten popular again due to the rise in popularity of 80s and 90s cars.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > CaptDale - is secretly British
07/23/2019 at 15:32

For some things, there are certainly aftermarket solutions. However, many of those then have to entertain the second half of the solution in terms of what each modification means in terms of rules and car classification. Using the dual-mass flywheels that don’t exist for these cars anymore as an example, that RAM conversion kit in and of itself is a significant drive line modification that probably bumps one of these cars out of street prepared into a prepared class (for autocross) or out of an Touring or IT based roadracing class and into a production/STO/GT class. Same with the LS E ngineering (IIRC) kit that does away with the opti-spark completely and comes with a new timing gear setup to run LS style cam/crank position sensors and coil on plug set up. The roadracing classes that are base on more limited levels of modification all have rule sets based on original parts except for allowed modifications. I.e., anything not specifically listed as an allowed modification must remain stock with OEM or OEM equivalent parts.

I think it would be more like a never ending stream of smaller parts becoming problematic like locating a steady source of replacement thrust washers for the rear hubs, bushings and other small consumables that become unavailable, or what the availability is of internal parts for that ZF6 gearbox. When an annual gearbox rebuild turns up a couple of trashed gears , how easily can you find a new ones , for instance ?

CaptDale - is secretly British > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com
07/23/2019 at 17:34

I mean you aren’t wrong. Just a bridge I am willing to cross at that time.