Is the 2017-2019 Porsche 718 flat-four destined to be a one-off?

"superdave847" (superdave847) 07/21/2019 at 19:24 • Filed to: Porsche Flat Six, Porsche 718, Porsche GT4, Porsche Cayman, Porsche Boxster, Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG, Porsche, Corvette C8, Miata, Volvo

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The 718 Cayman (and Boxster) are very beautiful entry-level Porsches, a.k.a., Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung, Konstruktion und Beratung für Motoren- und Fahrzeugbau .

In some variations, the Cayman nearly surpasses the performance of the 911 base Carrerra.

Before this model, the cars had a beautiful flat-six engine, leading some to speculate that the 981 and 987 chassis would appreciate in value (indeed the Boxster Spyder, Cayman R, Cayman GTS and Cayman GT4 probably will regardless of future engines).

Now, however, Porsche has announced a return to form and is going to install a flat-six in the new GT4 and Spyder.

So the question I have is whether this is a limited change or whether it’s an about face like Porsche did with the 944/928?

I will tell you that if I had just ordered a Cayman S right now, I would be concerned.

What do you think, OPPO?

In any case, I still think the Cayman is a damn good car. It just sucks for the Cayman that the 911 exists.

P.S.

I like the C8. But, I am confused—why aren’t we discussing Miatas & Brown Volvo wagons?!?

!

way2blu does a rev update > superdave847 07/21/2019 at 19:32

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The C8, if it delivers on the specs announced so far, makes most of Porsche’s sub-$100k product line entirely obsolete. If it had a stick shift it’d be even more unstoppable. Dual-clutch sounds just fine, tbh :P

superdave847 > way2blu does a rev update 07/21/2019 at 19:37

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I don’t disagree. I can’t even think of a rational reason to argue with you—& I’m a lawyer—I can always argue all sides.

The transmission choice is the only really to buy a another mid-engined car, but at that price, its used Cayman Rs, M4 Competition packs,  clean 996 Turbos, and maybe you can find a 997 Turbo or 997 GTS.

But none of those compare to a new car. The C8 appears to be the biggest car story in ten years.

BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo > superdave847 07/21/2019 at 19:44

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If we look at the 911, a lot of people scoffed when Porsche announced that the normal 911 lineup would have turbocharged engines starting with the 2017 991.2. Even then, the 991.2 GT3 and GT3 RS retained the naturally aspirated 4.0 flat-6 and even a manual in the case of the GT3. Those are supposed to be raw and savage  compared to the normal garden variety 911s, hence why they kept the 9k rpm redline screamers in lieu of higher output turbocharged engines.

We’re now on the 992, which has a standard turbocharged flat-6. I’m sure the GT3 and GT3 RS will be naturally aspirated due to the heritage of such a niche and specialized car.

The 718 is much the same. The 981 had the GT4 and Boxster Spyder, but like the 991.1, the base models had naturally aspirated engines. If we look at the 982, it’s just a smaller 991.2 shift. Just because the flat-4s are here to stay in the base models doesn’t mean that the GT4 and Spyder can’t retain the niche naturally aspirated 6. Porsche works in strange, but understandable ways.

Textured Soy Protein > way2blu does a rev update 07/21/2019 at 19:45

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Only in the US and only to non-brand whores. 

Textured Soy Protein > superdave847 07/21/2019 at 19:47

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I think the flat-4 718 was only a miscalculation in that it's too quiet. If it sounded like a typical modded WRX with some Porsche flair to it nobody would be complaining.

MultiplaOrgasms > way2blu does a rev update 07/21/2019 at 19:47

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- Porsche sales meanwhile remain unaffected - 

BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo > Textured Soy Protein 07/21/2019 at 19:49

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If it helps, the sport exhaust is now standard on all 718s for the 2019 model year.

way2blu does a rev update > superdave847 07/21/2019 at 19:51

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I saw someone compare it to the R35 GT-R in terms of being a game-changing leap forward, and I’m inclined to agree.

What else does 0-60 in 3 seconds, for under $60k? Heck, 5 years ago , how many cars under 6 figures in price could do that? The real kicker is that the C8 could have far cheaper running costs than anything it competes with.

This car needs a disclaimer on it. With such quick acceleration and high grip limits, most drivers will run out of skill long before the C8 does. I hope Chevy offers a complimentary performance driving (and safety!) course with the purchase of any C8.

I want one so badly:

superdave847 > BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo 07/21/2019 at 19:51

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This is plausible, but it is equally likely they are buckling to the complaints of their customers.

Remember, maybe you forgot to mention this, the 991 GT3 initially was only PDK. So they made the 911R with a manual, which skyrocketed in value.

A year later, Porsche did an about-face and added the manual option to the GT3.

So its not quite as smooth a theory as you present.

BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo > superdave847 07/21/2019 at 19:54

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Ah, but you see, that’s why I specified 991.2. The 991.1 GT3 was a radical departure that led to the 911 R becoming the halo model for manual enthusiasts.  I was mostly focusing on the engine aspects.

way2blu does a rev update > Textured Soy Protein 07/21/2019 at 19:56

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Per the link above, Chevy can make this in RHD from the factory. I would not be surprised if this takes off internationally, much like how the Ford Mustang sells quite well in Europe.

To the point of brand snobbery, see how long the Porsc hephiles will tolerate losing at the track to a car that costs half as much.

I admit, this is all contingent on the C8 actually delivering on its specs. For the sake of enthusiasts everywhere, I hope it does.

way2blu does a rev update > MultiplaOrgasms 07/21/2019 at 19:58

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:P

Porsche track records though, Idk...

superdave847 > Textured Soy Protein 07/21/2019 at 20:40

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I think this is right 

superdave847 > way2blu does a rev update 07/21/2019 at 20:43

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Or counter point:

Lamborghini, Porsche, McLaren, & Ferrari have had decades to learn how to do this shit.

And Chevy quickly realizes it’s built something less reliable and more destructive than the 996 IMS / RMS.

This is the ultimate first model year to avoid.

I guarantee an engineering grenade is lurking under the surface.

Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle > way2blu does a rev update 07/21/2019 at 21:10

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Rear seats, manual transmission,  and name recognition will continue to help the 911. I also think there are going to be a lot of C8s on the road and that will drive some people away in time. And finally, even though it’s light, the C8 has got a pretty big footprint at over 180 inches(when comparing it to a cayman) .   In general, I think the C8 looks like a game changer on paper and suspect the reviews will back this up . But as with everything in life, lots of people will choose lots of other cars for lots of other reasons.

way2blu does a rev update > superdave847 07/21/2019 at 21:21

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Counter-counterpoint:

Chevy’s been experimenting with mid-engine corvette designs for 5 decades. The small-block V8 architecture is plenty reliable. I dunno, this  could be the 2nd coming of the original Honda NSX.

Jordan > superdave847 07/21/2019 at 21:32

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I know this isn’t what’s being discussed, but t he IMS bearings aren’t that big of a deal. They only broke on a small percentage of 996's, 997.1's, 986's and 987.1's .

And there are ways to avoid failures too- you could

A) replace the IMS bearing every time you replac e the clutch

B) Buy a ceramic bearing

C) Buy a direct oil-feed kit

D) B+C

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > superdave847 07/21/2019 at 21:33

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Nope.

thefinalmonster > superdave847 07/21/2019 at 21:36

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4 cylinder engines in sport cars is an acquired taste. I have come to really like them as I get older. There will be a day when we will all be clinging on to our 3 cylinder motors sitting inside our locked up garages, hush hush now the electric men are coming for you.

Who will be the first to make a gas -at-home brewing kit? Because gas stations aren’t going to stick around much longer either.

All I’m trying to say is love the 4 cylinder while you can.

DipodomysDeserti > superdave847 07/21/2019 at 21:43

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Yeah, Chevy is pretty new to to the OHV V8 game. I hear they’re real finicky. One of the reasons people avoid swapping them into everything imaginable.

superdave847 > Jordan 07/21/2019 at 21:47

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Very well aware of the fix.

I didn’t mean to single out Porsche. My point is, Porsche has built cars like this for decades.

If you think Chevy can do it right the first model year of the first attempt, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

superdave847 > thefinalmonster 07/21/2019 at 21:51

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I get this theory, but I’ll still buy a 997.2 before any new Cayman.

superdave847 > BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo 07/21/2019 at 22:03

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Ha, you got me! I missed the distinction you made.

Diem > superdave847 07/21/2019 at 22:14

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I truly believe that Porsche made a huge miscalculation with the 718 and is going to reverse course. They can't be blamed, they just thought they were outsmarting the rest. But look at the release of the Supra, yeah it's a Bimmer, but they had no issue with a turbo six 5 years later, Porsche had thought itself into a corner, couldn't exceed 911 performance, even with S models, but needed to advance technology. People won't buy that. Back to flat sixes it goes. They wont admit they made a mistake and base models will carry the 4. 

marshknute > superdave847 07/21/2019 at 22:15

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I think we’ll see another facelift, but I think the next all-new generation of Boxster/Cayman will go fully electric.

Honestly, the 4-cylinders suck balls. I’ve driven the base, S, and GTS, and t hey’re all really dreary and uninspiring (albeit quite quick) . Porsche has tried to mitigate the damage by making the sport exhaust standard, but sales have diminished alarmingly quickly for a new sports car.

The 911 had an easier time switching to a turbo-6, because at least it still sounds like a 6-cylinder. The 4-pots just sound like shit, no matter how loud the exhaust is.

Also , my uncle has cancelled his order for a GT4 in favor of the C8.

marshknute > superdave847 07/21/2019 at 22:24

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I’m on the fence with this one.

The C7 had its issues, including a tendency for the first model year of LT1's to unexpectedly explode on the track, as my aunt experienced first-hand .

But unlike Porsche or BMW, GM actually honors their warranty, even if they know for a fact that you were tracking the car. My aunt got a new engine and transmission free of charge within a week, and the dealer even called ahead to ask if they should use race-spec fluids .

She’s since upgraded to a Grand Sport which often throws CEL’s due to minor electrical glitches; the dealer said it’s not a mechanical problem (aka, finish the track day) , but to bring it in anyway so they can log the error and ultimately Lemon Law the car and put her in a new vehicle, free of charge.

It seems that as long as your Corvette is still within warranty, GM will bend over backwards to help you.

superdave847 > marshknute 07/21/2019 at 22:27

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That’s a very cool story.

Why do you say BMW & Porsche don’t honor warranties?

BMW has been amazing for me on warranty repairs.

I’ve never owned a Porsche 

worldbfree4me > Textured Soy Protein 07/21/2019 at 22:56

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I’m with you Bro. When I retire, it's Porsche period. Not some plastic dashboarded Vette.. 

Abe > Textured Soy Protein 07/21/2019 at 22:57

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I honestly would. 4 bangers are just too uncouth for me, in any of its forms.

Abe > way2blu does a rev update 07/21/2019 at 22:59

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Yep. There's no way I'd consider a 4-banger 718 for nearly 100k when a 65k C8 will definitely give me so much more.

jimithing > BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo 07/21/2019 at 23:01

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Yeah because it sounds like sh *t with the standard exhaust. I had a Cayman S as a loaner & it’s ok with PSE in loud mode, which is why this is the right move. Still, four cylinders is dumb. These cars are toys, not appliances. 

The real problem is the 718's performance is too close to the base 911 unless they cripple it with a 4-cyl.

jimithing > way2blu does a rev update 07/21/2019 at 23:05

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It’s so beautiful. I’ve only owned European cars (Saab, followed by a bunch of German cars) but this one might change my mind. I’m not sure about having to go to the Chevy dealer for service but I also might laugh at how cheap it is. 

worldbfree4me > way2blu does a rev update 07/21/2019 at 23:06

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Ferrari Enzo > weight 33001bs 660 HP V12 0 to 60 3 seconds https://www.supercars.net/blog/ferrari

0-60-times/ We shall see if the base Vette lives up to those claims of being faster than even the ZR1 available Now for twice  the price 

404 - User No Longer Available > way2blu does a rev update 07/21/2019 at 23:25

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Or a Fiero with a factory V8 swap.

way2blu does a rev update > 404 - User No Longer Available 07/21/2019 at 23:28

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That would be...

*scrambles to put on sunglasses*

Fierrible!

Porsche Monk > Textured Soy Protein 07/21/2019 at 23:47

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A loud and angry flat 4 is still nothing like a wailing flat 6.

Porsche Monk > superdave847 07/21/2019 at 23:56

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Sure the 997.2 is great, but it’s slower than the 718 and is 10 years old with rather new with warranty. Just a different buyer buying for a different purpose.

I have a 987.2  Boxster S 6MT, so it's not like I don't see the appeal.

Porsche Monk > superdave847 07/21/2019 at 23:59

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I have a feeling we might be seeing the flat-6 come back, either as a 3.4-3.8L na version, or a 2.5-2.7L turbo. Either of these options will keep the 718 below the 992.

A na version may have me buying one... And yes I know I’ll be far slower than a Vette for a bit more  money :/

superdave847 > Porsche Monk 07/22/2019 at 00:30

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Me too

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > way2blu does a rev update 07/22/2019 at 01:51

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They are planning to make it in RHD but the volumes will be tiny compared to LHD because of the price of entry (which won’t be US$60,000) and the operating costs for V8s in R HD markets . If Holden (or HSV) manages to sell more than a couple of hundred C 8' s in the first year I’ll be impressed...

There is also the problem that Chevrolet do not have a European or British presence anymore. There’s no way China will take very many either given current trade relations and the Chev brand has no high flier status in the Middle East...so unless it is fully blinged and Cadillac branded...no dice there either. But sure they'll probably do OK in Canada...

Ford’s Mustang is popular in Europe and Oz primarily because it is much cheaper than its limited competition and is available with the Ecoboost 6 (cheaper to insure and register than the V8 )...and even then the volume and annual allocation as a proportion of the total build volume is very small.

Axial > way2blu does a rev update 07/22/2019 at 01:56

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Disagree. The 718 is smaller, lighter, more playful, and gives you things you cannot get with a C8. With the end of the C7, the 718 and 370Z are the last remaining proper sports cars you can get in stick, in the US, that aren’t of the slow-car-fast variety (Miata and Toyobaru twins).

The C8 will be cross-shopped against the Porsche for sure, but I don't think they are offering the same experience.

Saracen > superdave847 07/22/2019 at 02:00

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I don’t think the turbo fours are going anywhere.  The downsizing is happening for a reason.  Don’t expect a naturally aspirated engine that’s not a special model.  If they do make a change to the turbo engines, it could possibly be a six cylinder I guess.  I still don’t consider it likely...just a lot of wishful thinking.

As for the driving experience, coming from a 997, I liked it.  They don’t have the same wail as my 997, but I actually liked the sound when I drove a 718 GTS. And goodness gracious it’s so much quicker. HUGE midrange. The turbo four makes it a better daily Porsche in my opinion.

Axial > thefinalmonster 07/22/2019 at 02:05

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The AudibTTS is my guilty pleasure car. I know it’s a tarted up Golf and a Cayman or a Corvette are much better sports cars for the money, but something about the current generation of TT is just so right.

And, specifically the TTS over the RS to get weight off of the front axle. There is hardly anything distinguishing the two trims outside of the 5-cylinder, now. 

Axial > superdave847 07/22/2019 at 02:08

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Weird take time:

I think I’d be more okay with the 4-banger in the 718 of it was a well-tuned inlin e-4 instead of a flat-4. It would certainly sound more sporting. 

superdave847 > Axial 07/22/2019 at 07:07

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Not weird at all

MTmanual > way2blu does a rev update 07/22/2019 at 08:12

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Generall y speaking, I think you’re probably correct. I say this as a 2019 718 Boxster S owner. I’ll be interested to see the weight  sta s which are probably available but I have not seen just yet for the C8. The C7 was four to five hundred pounds heavier than the Boxster and since I prefer agility and usability compared to higher hp (n/a v8, howeva... nice) , I’m still very happy with my car. I think the Corvette though could be a world beater

MTmanual > MultiplaOrgasms 07/22/2019 at 08:13

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..yet... sincerely, 2019  718 box s owner

MTmanual > Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle 07/22/2019 at 08:15

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I live I live in a rural area with a very tight roads, and I like smaller vehicles. For me the Corvettes have always been too big. So I stick with the 718 I have

marshknute > superdave847 07/22/2019 at 09:07

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At least within my HPDE club (Northern NJ chapter of the Porsche Club), I’ve yet to see BMW or Porsche fix something out of goodwill. I’m not talking about crashes, which are obviously the owner’s fault. I’m talking about things like M4's entering limp mode on hot days, or Boxsters’ suspension getting punched upward clean through the strut tower after hitting a tall rumblestrip/turtle.

It might be dealer specific, but neither company seems willing to play ball if they know the customer went to the racetrack.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > way2blu does a rev update 07/22/2019 at 09:42

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Yes, based purely on performance.

But design matters, too.

Plenty of Porsche drivers wouldn’t be caught dead in a Corvette, and vice versa.

I prefer the design of the Porsche, but I’m looking forward to buying a garage queen C8 Z06 in 2030 for $30k and tracking the piss out of it! 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > way2blu does a rev update 07/22/2019 at 09:44

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Maintenance costs go waaay up with a midengine design.

Parts may be cheaper than others, but labor’s going to be much more for pretty much anything. 

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > superdave847 07/22/2019 at 11:41

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Nope. The GT 4 and Spyder getting sixes was always the plan. Look at the 911 line, every single 911 is turbocharged no except the “special ones” like the GT3. And every single 718 is H4 powered except for the “special ones” like the GT4 and Spyder. That was always the plan.

Saracen > marshknute 07/22/2019 at 14:07

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718 sales are not tanking.  It sells %11 better than the 981.

marshknute > Saracen 07/22/2019 at 15:02

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Sorry, but sales figures suggest otherwise .

Keep in mind that the 718 sales numbers are combined (convertible + coupe), while the 981 had separately published figures for the Boxster and Cayman. So, yes, the total 718 sales eclipse the standalone Boxster or Cayman sales.

Here are the North American sales figures (US + Canada) since the 981 was released (I’ve combined 981 Boxster and Cayman sales figures for comparison’s sake) :

2013: 7684 (new 981)

2014: 7292

2015: 6663

2016: 6260

2017: 5087 (new 718)

2018: 5276

2019: 2155**  

**A s of June 2019; works out to 4310/yr if it continues at this rate through the remainder of 2019.

This is the first time ever that a new/facelifted Boxster didn’t outsell the model it replaces. Sales are bad enough that Porsche is considering dropping the ICE entirely and making the 5th generation a pure EV .

superdave847 > Textured Soy Protein 07/22/2019 at 22:23

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Correct. That does narrow the market a bunch.

superdave847 > Porsche Monk 07/22/2019 at 22:25

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Would you take a 718 over a 997?

Personally, I’m all about the 911 because I want to include my small children in my car stuff.

superdave847 > Axial 07/22/2019 at 22:26

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The TT is an amazing car in its own right!

superdave847 > Abe 07/22/2019 at 22:31

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Even the 2.7 liter 944?

superdave847 > jimithing 07/22/2019 at 22:40

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“The real problem is the 718's performance is too close to the base 911 unless they cripple it with a 4-cyl.”

Very true.

Everyone knows the 911 is essentially a beautiful, 56 year-defense of an engineering mistake. Placing the engine weight in the middle is superior to placing it over the rear axle. I don’t think this can be argued about.

If Porsche wants to build the ultimate normal sports car (because the Carrerra GT & 918 Spyder are already at the top of the food chain), it would place the GT3 RS & GT2 RS engines in Caymans, coupled with a PDK, without any changes to the power .

Those would be amazing Caymans. And the 911 wouldn’t be able to compete.

superdave847 > marshknute 07/22/2019 at 22:43

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Damn.

The GT4 would probably hold its value better than a C8, but the C8 is definitely cool looking.

I think the idea of electric Caymans and Boxsters is really attractive. Especially if the Tacyan is $90k or whatever.

superdave847 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/22/2019 at 22:44

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Okay!

superdave847 > Diem 07/22/2019 at 22:46

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Agreed. The Supra / Z4 are a bigger threat to the Cayman / Boxster than the C8. The C8 is a category of its own, but those cars are directly competing.

So would you take a smaller engine in order to get a manual or PDK instead of a ZF slush box?

marshknute > superdave847 07/22/2019 at 23:08

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The trouble is getting a GT4. As my uncle found, you can’t just walk in and order one. They put you on a wait list, and then bump you every time they get an allocation for a cooler car (GT3, GT2, etc) or every time an existing customer asks to be put on the list for a GT4.

Porsche Monk > superdave847 07/23/2019 at 12:10

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Probably the 718...  I’ve had a 987.2 6MT for years now, if I wanted to drive a 10yo Porsche mine is perfect because I prefer the 987 to 997. The 718 would be something different, and despite this being Jalopnik newer is nicer in some ways (just not the engine sounds :/)

Abe > superdave847 09/19/2019 at 09:34

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Love that 944 but a four is  a four. Larger displacement only makes the go BRRRRRRRRR

Abe > Textured Soy Protein 09/20/2019 at 18:46

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.