I mean...I kinda get it

"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch) 07/15/2019 at 16:11 • Filed to: rant

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I have nothing against the minivan, other than the fact that mini they are not, but I have to admit that reading Mr. Collins piece on the palisade makes me realize that the anti-suv movement is starting to look more like old ways dying hard than it is a thing of facts.

I mean, the palisade AWD gets better mileage than an AWD sienna and costs about the same too, plus it allows you better towing and more road choices.

Sure you wont get as much pure volume but most 7 seat vehicles in this class are purchased for small kid or occasional use and the extra space isn’t really a benefit.

So, the “drinks fuel, handles like a pig” mentality of the crossover really isn’t that big of a complaint when you stack it up against its direct competitors - I mean, does anyone think minivans are fuel efficient or even good handling vehicles?

I still maintain minivans are the better utility vehicles as they have lower load floors, more interior volume and higher payloads. Im not saying the minivan is dumb and crossovers are great. I AM saying that the gap has closed and the market’s appetite for crossovers ought not to be a mystery anymore - They offer a lot for the money and don’t ask nearly as much as they used to...to the point where they are on parity with anything in their capability range and, well, anything in their weight range really. When this Kia (in any configuration)

Gets better mileage than this one (in any configuration)

Maybe we just step back a little and go “huh, yeah...it might not be for me but I get it.”

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > HammerheadFistpunch 07/15/2019 at 16:45

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But I was specifically told via Recession Jalopnik that SUVs will meet their downfall!

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > HammerheadFistpunch 07/15/2019 at 17:20

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I mean for $32k the base model costs I can buy a Grand Caravan GT, which will drive better and get better fuel economy, while maintaining the minivan advantages for roominess, loading, and payload. All the while having more options/gadgets that everyone is so crazy for these days.

I will say that there are very few modern minivans that are actually decent to drive, then again a higher CUV isn’t driving any better.

Frankly, they just need to start putting proper sliding doors on these damn things, laying out the seating to be more functional, and calling them minivans, that’s all they are at this point anyway.

HammerheadFistpunch > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 07/15/2019 at 17:40

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one of those definitely didn't make it out of the recession very well

HammerheadFistpunch > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness 07/15/2019 at 17:55

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Grand caravan GT?

the old grand caravan that cost $ 36, 420, and got 18/25/20 mpg?

I’ve driven that vehicle and while I haven’t driven the Hyundai...there is no way it drives better.  yuck I hate driving that thing.

Monkey B > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness 07/15/2019 at 18:09

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I know you love em, but the Caravan will not drive better, it doesn’t drive better than the previous version of itself. I love a van, but this take is just plain wrong...a base Equinox is a better driving experience than the Caravan (I drive both frequently ). Go take a ride in one of those new SUV’s like the Telluride, or most everything else available really, before holding on to that opinion...the Caravan is archaic by comparison. 

SpeedSix > HammerheadFistpunch 07/15/2019 at 18:31

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The Sienna AWD probably gets worse mileage because it doesn’t get the development dollars.

As the market moved from minivans by the early 2010s, nobody wanted to invest too much in a shrinking market. The North American V6 minivan is only suitable for Canada, the U.S., and China. It’s not worth it to set up assembly in China to avoid taxes there, and the market is shrinking in Canada and the U.S.

HammerheadFistpunch > SpeedSix 07/15/2019 at 18:39

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not...really. The sienna still sells incredibly well, and its development cycle started long before the highlander took over its sales crown.

Plus the brand new Pacifica doesn’t do a whole lot better at 18/28. One mpg worse city and only 2 worse highway than the 2wd Hyun dai.

The problem isn’t money, the problem is minivans are big and heavy, just like their 3 row crossover counterparts.  

MultiplaOrgasms > HammerheadFistpunch 07/15/2019 at 19:41

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I mean, you are talking to Long_Voyager here , what else did you expect.

imadick > HammerheadFistpunch 07/15/2019 at 22:16

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It’s a good alternative to a S uburban. Once you have a couple of kids in sports and need to serve carpooling duty you need something like this.

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > HammerheadFistpunch 07/16/2019 at 07:09

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Have you driven a 2016+ Grand Caravan GT ?

They can be had for $32k out the door, and real world can accomplish much better mileage than EPA estimates ( thus far we’ve cracked 26.5 and 25.3 mpg from our 2018 in mixed driving ) .

The new/newer GTs are one of the best driving minivans on the market. The lower model Grand Caravans however are rolly pigs, just like the Sienna/Odyssey.

I honestly don’t understand how people think these 3 row CUVs drive better? I’ve been in and driven enough of them to know t hey’re more rounded, giving them less visibility. They ride higher, making them more rolly. They run larger wheels, meaning they soften the suspension to compensate, making them drive even worse. They struggle to break 20 mpg in real world driving.  

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > Monkey B 07/16/2019 at 07:31

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I honestly don’t understand how people think these 3 row CUVs drive better?

I’ve been in and driven enough of them to know they’re more rounded, giving them less visibility. They ride higher, making them more rolly. They run larger wheels, meaning they soften the suspension to compensate, making them drive even worse. They struggle to break 20 mpg in real world driving. They drive like bloated/lifted minivans, full stop.

a base Equinox is a better driving experience than the Caravan

I would sure hope a small 5 passenger CUV would be better driving than a big 7 passenger minivan. We’re not talking little CUVs here, we’re talking 3 row CUVs, like this thing, the Traverse, the Pilot, etc. Your statement is like saying a Miata drives better than a Taurus.

The new/newer GTs are one of the best driving minivans on the market. The lower model Grand Caravans however are rolly pigs, just like the Sienna/Odyssey, and even worse driving than the 4th gen it replaced. They did get slightly better with the 2014 updates, but still not great driving.  

If you’ve never driven a GT, you would have no idea what I’m talking about, so I wouldn’t expect you to get it. I base my opinion on driving experience, not how many gimmicks they line it with.  

HammerheadFistpunch > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness 07/16/2019 at 10:05

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yes. i test drove one when we were looking at new cars. it drove exactly like the vw routan were were borrowing to do all our car shopping. hard pass. the gx470 we bought used drives soooo much better. sharper, more communicative, better damped, more nimble, etc, etc. while the gx does indeed struggle to get 20, it can (and does) tow 6500 lbs, it rips compared to the the 4.0 or 3.6 and feels tighter and better screwed together at 140k than the routan (that’s taken very good care of) does at 90k.

i realize whom I’m taking to but to answer your question... yes my opinions are grounded in real world experience.

and yes, my mom’s 2nd gen Highlander was a better diving car too and would easily get 24 mpg on our 80 mph freeways.

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > HammerheadFistpunch 07/16/2019 at 10:21

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Routan =/= Grand Caravan GT.

The Routan uses the same softer (read garbage) suspension setup as the lower Grand Caravan models, meaning it drives like hot garbage. The Routan was also dropped before the 2014 refresh, meaning it lacks many of the added refinement of the newer Grand Caravans, making it even worse in every aspect. No offense, but if the Routan is your GC experience, your experience is dated, the Routan is soft/rolly like the T/C it shared a chassis with, it is a far cry from a 2014+ Grand Caravan GT.

I’ve been behind the wheel of a 2017 Highlander. It drove nicer than a regular Caravan, but is a pig compared to the GT. Given your mom’s 2nd gen gets 24 mpg hwy and I have consistently pulled over 25 mpg from our Grand Caravan in mixed driving , it gets worse mileage as well.

HammerheadFistpunch > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness 07/16/2019 at 20:13

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But here's the thing, I've driven both the gt and the routan. No big difference from where I sat

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > HammerheadFistpunch 07/17/2019 at 07:01

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Seriously!?!?!

The GT and the non GT Grand Caravans are like night and day differences behind the wheel.

To each their own.

HammerheadFistpunch > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness 07/17/2019 at 09:42

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as far as i understand the routan got a 50% spring rate increase over the standard caravan with accompanying damper increase and all gcs went to the higher rate springs eventually. the gt got a 20% bump over that which helps but doesn’t really change the experience in the same way that flicking my adjustable dampers from level 3 to level 4 doesn’t dramatically alter the way the Lexus drives  fundamentally.

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > HammerheadFistpunch 07/17/2019 at 10:10

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The Routan did NOT get different suspension from the Grand Caravan, they ran the exact same springs/dampers . All the Grand Caravans got better suspension in 2014 with the refresh, along with far better interiors. The GT is the only model to get better springs/dampers.

Maybe much of the experience difference comes from what we’re used to and how we drive as well. I’m used to lighter/better handling vehicles and generally drive more “aggressively”, so I tend to notice little differences very easily and know they can make/break a vehicle.

You also gotta remember price, y ou’re trying to compare a $50k+ ( base price ) vehicle to a $25k ( base price ) vehicle, I would sure hope the $50k vehicle is significantly better in every aspect.

HammerheadFistpunch > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness 07/17/2019 at 10:32

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All the information I found showed that the early routans did in fact get different springs and dampers and that all Grand Caravans eventually got those rates. Basically “tow package” springs with “Sachs Nivomat load leveling shocks” which come in 3 flavors “heavy duty” “commercial” and “E uropean tuning” which the routan gets.

“Underneath, VW gave this front-driver a sportier suspension tune, bumping spring rates by 50 percent and tweaking the shocks and power steering for a more positive feel.”

http://www.trucktrend.com/truck-reviews/163-0811-2009-volkswagen-routan-first-drive

“Volkswagen says the Routan’s improvements go beneath the surface, and to a degree, that is correct. Spring rates that are significantly higher than those of the Chrysler duo give the Routan a more planted feel on highways and twistier roads with only a slight penalty in ride quality.”

http://www.trucktrend.com/truck-reviews/163-1109-2010-volkswagen-routan-sel-verdict

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > HammerheadFistpunch 07/17/2019 at 12:00

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They’re the same Mopar part numbers...........

HammerheadFistpunch > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness 07/17/2019 at 13:14

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im not so sure. I can’t find the same code or part number for the routan spring in any mopar catalog . I realize VW relabeled the part to fit their supply chain but they all seem to share a 3 letter code indicating the model, and the one for the Routan isn’t shared with any dodge.

1JA , OYA for the VW, which I can’t find in the mopar catalog. (Mopar ones all start with “Z”)

Its also listed in the VW cata log as

“Coil Spring.

Exc.Towing Package. Suspension Range-1.”

Which jibes with what I said earlier.

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > HammerheadFistpunch 07/17/2019 at 17:04

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VW used their own PNs on the same parts from what I can find.

The Routan S, SE, SEL used the same 4743981AC Springs as the Grand Caravan and Town and Country Limited, LE for 2010.

The SEL Premium shared the better S prings with the Town and Country Touring.

The Grand Caravan GT/RT got it’s own Springs.  

Aftermarket parts jibe with this as they list both as the same parts for replacements depending on trim.

Either way, it’s not the same as a Grand Caravan GT, so the entire argument is pointless.