Homelopnic: electricity is scary

"Cash Rewards" (cashrewards) 07/03/2019 at 11:05 • Filed to: None

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A few nights ago we got (I’m guessing) a massive power surge through the system. Bright flash outside, whole neighborhood out for a few hours. My wife said she saw a flash from the closet where our breaker box is. I checked that and saw every breaker for outlets was flipped. The next morning, I found that any surge protector in the house was dead (doing their job, thankfully). I also found this outlet with a nightlight

Everything else seems to have made it through unscathed. But what else should I do from here? I can replace an outlet myself, but should I have a pro out to give everything a once over?

Aremmes > Cash Rewards 07/03/2019 at 11:18

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Start changing the outlets, and look inside the breaker box . If you see any damage to the wires in the outlet and breaker boxes, it’s time to call the pros.

DipodomysDeserti > Cash Rewards 07/03/2019 at 11:25

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Outlets are easy to replace, just take a pic of how it’s wired and make sure the breaker is off.

However, if you don’t feel comfortable, have an electrician do it. This stuff can kill you or burn your house down.

Cash Rewards > DipodomysDeserti 07/03/2019 at 11:31

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Yeah, outlets are no problem. I've just never seen something like that, and didn't know if a pro to make sure nothing else is fucked is a good idea

Cash Rewards > Aremmes 07/03/2019 at 11:31

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Sounds like a good plan to me

WilliamsSW > Cash Rewards 07/03/2019 at 11:32

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What Aremmes said, and don’t forget your major appliances that might not have obvious outlets.

Cash Rewards > WilliamsSW 07/03/2019 at 11:38

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All major appliances seem in working order. Think it’s worth pulling them off the wall to check?

merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc > Cash Rewards 07/03/2019 at 11:42

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You may have enough to warrant an insurance claim through your homeowners policy. If you find damage to the circuit breakers and judging by the looks of that outlet the circuits saw a lot of voltage/amperage.  

WilliamsSW > Cash Rewards 07/03/2019 at 11:47

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The photo you posted makes me think you might see something similar where the fridge plugs in, for example- so if it were me, I’d take a look at anything that’s plugged in, just to be safe.  

facw > Cash Rewards 07/03/2019 at 11:50

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The first time I visited my parents after they got their current house, the space heater did this overnight (on the low setting):

Unsurprisingly, the electrician said it didn’t look like things were wired quite r ight.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Cash Rewards 07/03/2019 at 12:02

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Damn! Sounds like you took a hell of a hit. But it also sounds like the breakers , your surge suppressors, and GFCIs did their jobs. I’m a former electrician, but I’ve never taken a hit that hard in a house before, so I’m not sure what to say. I’d obviously replace that damaged GFCI, and I might make a quick visual inspection and call it good, unless I started noticing problems with other lights/receptacles/appliances/etc. H ere are some things you can do that you should be more than capable of if you’re comfortable replacing that GFCI :

Replace the burned up GFCI

Test all the other GFCIs in the house with their test button, or even better a GFCI tester if you have one (it’s a little plug with some lights and a button on top, the lights light up in patterns to tell you if it’s wired right, and the button trips it externally - you can get one at Home Depot,Lowes, Amazon for around $10)

Visually inspect all the other switches and receptacles in the house for signs of damage or scorching

Turn on all the other lights/fans in the house and make sure they work.

Take a load, something like a desk l amp works well, and plug it in to every outlet (top and bottom receptacles in case they are split wired ) in the house to see if anything bad happens.

Visually inspect all visible wire (i.e. where it’s coming out of the panel, unfinished rooms, etc.) for any sign of damage

Visually inspect the panel around the circuit bre aker throws for signs of scorching or damage

Now, if I was still really worried, this is what I would do/pay someone to do. It’s probably overkill, but you can do all the above steps yourself, this is where it gets dangerous and you would want a professional:

Take the panel cover off, inspect inside the panel

Check the tightness of all the wires in the panel where they are landed under the breakers, as well as the neutral and ground bus bars.

Now, here’s some tips:

Turn off the circuit you’re working on (i.e. when replacing the GFCI) and check to make sure the device is dead. If you want added safety, wrap your screwdriver shanks in electrical tape, and only use pliers, skinners, etc. that have rubberized handles (or wrap them in electrical tape) .

When you replace the GFCI or any other switch/receptacle USE THE SCREW TERMINALS ON THE SIDE, DO NOT USE THE STABS IN THE BACK! It takes a minute longer than just jamming the wire in the stabs, but at least you know you have a good, safe, tight connection. Loose connections increase resistance and that’s what leads to heat, damage, etc. I’ve already discovered 2 jacked up receptacles in my house (both were working intermitently) and guess what? Both had scorching/heat damage around the stabs where the wires were jammed in. In one case the neutral wire was almost completely severed .

I f the GFCI or any other device you’re replacing is in a metal box, after you land the wires UNDER THE SCREWS, put a wrap of electrical tape around the device, over the screws, to pevent contact between the screws and metal box.  If your house has plastic boxes (usually blue but sometimes orange or grey) then you don’t need to do this.  

Cash Rewards > facw 07/03/2019 at 12:02

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Yikes!

Cash Rewards > merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc 07/03/2019 at 12:02

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Yeah, might be worth looking into. Good point

Cash Rewards > WilliamsSW 07/03/2019 at 12:02

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Will do. Thanks!

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > Cash Rewards 07/03/2019 at 12:04

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That’s good advice.  You might also unscrew the panel on your breaker box and take a peak at the wiring and the back side of the breakers.  Like in the wall boxes, if you see damage beyond the outlets it is probably time to call a pro.

Spanfeller is a twat > merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc 07/03/2019 at 12:05

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voltage*amperage

Cash Rewards > Snuze: Needs another Swede 07/03/2019 at 12:11

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Awesome, thank you!

WilliamsSW > facw 07/03/2019 at 12:12

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Older homes are usually a nightmare of DIY garbage.

We have an older house (early 60s), and when I went to install GFCIs in the kitchen (because the previous owner was all “GFCI LOLNOPE”) , one of the outlets had not 2 wires, not 4 — but SIX. two of which were just wrapped around a terminal mid-wire.  Pretty hard for a GFCI to stop current flowing through those wires...

And the house has a fuse box that’s banned by code. Fun stuff.

WilliamsSW > Cash Rewards 07/03/2019 at 12:15

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The fact that the appliances aren’t toast suggests it may be okay, but as others noted, you don’t want to find out the hard way.  

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Cash Rewards 07/03/2019 at 12:21

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You’re welcome.

After I wrote all that, I remembered that we are in the same metropolitan area. I’m always happy to help a fellow Oppo out, so if you want me to come by and take a look at anything, like opening up the panel, let me know. 

merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc > Cash Rewards 07/03/2019 at 12:40

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Not that outlets are expensive, but by the time you replace all of them in the house and then there’s no telling if any devices got beat up too bad either.  

Hamtractor > Snuze: Needs another Swede 07/03/2019 at 12:43

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Former journeyman electrician here, I’d probably add that a continuity test of every circuit and every receptacle/fixture is probably in order.  Also visual inspection of the wire insulation adjacent to the GFCI that burned...   Make sure those Ohms are where they should be. I’d look into seeing if the power company whose equipment malfunctioned might have some sort of insurance or service for situations like these...

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Hamtractor 07/03/2019 at 12:51

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Good call. Like I said, I’ve never delt with a hit of this magnitude. I think the worst was one that tripped a few things and did pop one of the surge protectors in the house, so pretty mild . Sorting out one this bad can be a lot of work, for sure . Talking to the power company, or even homeowners insurance, might be the best bet in this case. 

facw > Snuze: Needs another Swede 07/03/2019 at 13:06

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Test all the other GFCIs in the house with their test button, or even better a GFCI tester if you have one (it’s a little plug with some lights and a button on top, the lights light up in patterns to tell you if it’s wired right, and the button trips it externally - you can get one at Home Depot,Lowes, Amazon for around $10)

Question about testing (that I probably could find on the internet, but as long as your here, I figure I might as well ask): Looking at my parents’ house’s sketchy wiring, I tired using my tester in a GFCI in one of the bathrooms. It came back h ot/n eutral reversed, and the GFCI test on the tester doesn’t work, though the test button on the outlet does. How concerned should they be about that?

I actually switched out the outlet and confirmed that the wires looked to be correct on the plug side, so it seems like if they are really reversed, it means the other end of the wires must be connected backwards *somewhere*?

Hamtractor > Snuze: Needs another Swede 07/03/2019 at 13:09

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By the way, your credibility as en electrician is firmly at 100% due to your vocal disdain for stab-in connections.  I still don’t see how the NEC board will let those pieces of shit fly but are requiring arc-fault or GFCI breakers in all residential builds now.  Crooked bastards, I think...

MattHurting > Snuze: Needs another Swede 07/03/2019 at 13:17

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Thanks for the tip about the back stabs on these; I have an outlet or two to replace soon and will remember this.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > facw 07/03/2019 at 13:35

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The way a GFCI works is somewhat counter-intuitive; it senses an imbalance across the hot and the grounded condcutor (neutral), not the grounding conductor (ground wire ). So even with the hot/neutral reversed , the internal trip will still still work . That’s why I recommended using an external one. The external tester shorts the hot to ground, that’s why it won’t work if the GFCI is mis-wired.

What you need to do is get a voltage tester and measure black to ground, white to ground, and black to white. You should see 120v black to ground and black to white, and nothing white to ground. If you don’t see that, something is mis-wired upstream.

You describe the house wiring as sketchy, which suggests to me that something is off - maybe they fed this GFCI out of a junction box and crossed the wires. That would be my best guess. E ach GFCI should be fed from it’s own dedicated circuit directly from the panel .  If it’s landed correctly in the panel, you can’t screw that up. 

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Hamtractor 07/03/2019 at 13:42

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Thank you! And agreed, they are probably getting greased. It only takes an extra minute to do it right, even if you put 12 0 devices in a house, thats a total of 2 extra hours of labor vs. a truly non-zero risk of BURNING THE HOUSE TO THE GROUND.

I do miss my electrian days sometimes. I’m a mechanical engineer now and spend a good chunk of my time behind a desk, which gets boring . I grew up working for my dad, who’s an electrician, and learned a lot. T hat also got me slotted in as a an Electricians Mate on a nuclear submarine when I joined the Navy , which was an interesting experience. Turns out submarine electricians are one of the “nuke” rates, so you have to go through nuclear power school and learn all about how reactors work in addition to electrian’s school. Fun times.  

Snuze: Needs another Swede > MattHurting 07/03/2019 at 13:52

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You’re welcome. As I have time I go through my house and re-do mine. I don’t want to scare people, it’s not like it’s critical that everyone run home and check all their outlets and re-do them - millions of houses have been built where I’m sure the stabs are used, just like for a long time houses used aluminum wire. In either case a vast majority of the homes are still standing, b oth are 99% safe. But why be 99% safe when you can just as easily be 99.9 % safe? 

Hamtractor > Snuze: Needs another Swede 07/03/2019 at 14:23

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I miss the simplicity of being in the field bending pipe and running wire, it was always an art form for me, but I’m in Arizona, so I decided to get outta the field. I sell electrical supplies for one of the biggest distributor in North America, and it’s great, but all the bullcrap and complications that come with running a sales crew is soul-sucking sometimes. Funny, I was a DC in the Navy, but I’ve said a million times if I could do it over again I’d have been an Electricans Mate or even an ET... Although being a gun n ut extraordinaire I figure I’d have done pre tty well as a Gunners Mate too.

shop-teacher > WilliamsSW 07/03/2019 at 14:25

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I know a good local el ectrician, when you're ready to upgrade to a proper circuit panel.

shop-teacher > Cash Rewards 07/03/2019 at 14:26

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Wow, that is crazy!

Cash Rewards > shop-teacher 07/03/2019 at 14:30

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Never had anything like it. Anything labeled "outlets" (downstairs outlets, upstairs outlets, etc...) was tripped. Plus the two surge protectors dying for the cause. 

Cash Rewards > Snuze: Needs another Swede 07/03/2019 at 14:34

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I will, I thank you! I’ll start on this list when I get home.

I’ ve been keeping an eye out for your doggo at Katie’s when I’ve gone with the kids. My daughter is as much there for dogs as cars. We’ll be bringing one home from the shelter in the next month or so, most likely. But in the meantime we’re trying to keep them satisfied as we can!

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Hamtractor 07/03/2019 at 14:41

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Same. I like keeping my hands busy, and there’s always a sense of accomplishment that feels more satisfying when you get a job done and can look upon something you’ve helped create vs. shuffling off a stack of papers you finish typing . And I appreciate the art, too. My buddy asked me to come help him wire up a “media room” in his house a few months ago - he’s into all the home automation buzz and wanted to have a place for a server, switches, etc. and needed lights and receptacles. I asked him about how he was going to finish the room and routed wires accordingly. He got a deal on a switch rack but it was missing some parts so I modified some LV rings to use as bushings in it, and even cut in a pair of low profile receptacles in the bottom to so he could keep the power cords for the switches under the cover. When I was done he acted like I was some kind of Picaso of electricity because of how nice my install looked, but I was just doing it how I was taught.  Fun story - his house failed the final inspection because they panel directory was in Spanish. The builder had to have another electrician come out and re-write it in E nglish.

If you’d been a Sub EM or ET you could have been a DC too, we were all DCs! I got off the boat on a medical issue and wound up working for Weapons shop on base. Spent a lot of time working with the GMs, running the range, working on weapons, getting people through quals. It’s not as glamorous as it sounds, but you do get to shoot machineguns a lot, so there’s that. And when I got out I had enough knowledge to build my own AR(s), and have since embarked on many other ham-fisted redneck gunsmithing projects with mostly great results. But being an EM got me the job I have now, and as much as I miss being an electrician, I do have a pretty damn good gig now.

WilliamsSW > Snuze: Needs another Swede 07/03/2019 at 14:43

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So, does that mean you spent some of your Navy time in Idaho?

My brother did...

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > Cash Rewards 07/03/2019 at 14:48

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Ouch....I wonder if something in the transmission lines failed to protect your neighbourhood.  Thanks for sharing and be safe.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Cash Rewards 07/03/2019 at 14:50

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You’re welcome!

I took him a few weeks ago and he had a total meltdown. It was super busy and I think maybe it was just too much for him. Then I was out of town for a few weeks with work. I did make it this past weekend, but with the specific plan with meeting up with a friend of mine, so I didn’t bring Ozzy in case he had a meltdown again . Turned out to be a pretty low key weekend so I wish I’d brought him. But I’m sure we’ll be out again soon... I don’t have much going on this weekend so maybe I’ll try again. I’m not sure if it will be a light weekend with lots of people on vacation, or a super busy weekend. Guess there’s only one way to find out.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > WilliamsSW 07/03/2019 at 14:51

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No, but I’ve heard stories. T hat plant was gone by the time I went through the pipeline (2004-5 timeframe). I spent my time up in Saratoga Springs, NY, and the other plant was down in Charleston, NC.

WilliamsSW > Snuze: Needs another Swede 07/03/2019 at 15:07

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Yeah my brother was in Idaho about 10-13 years before that.  I knew it since closed but wasn’t sure when.

He had some interesting stories - I always got the impression everyone out there was a little too bored and got into a little too much trouble. 

WilliamsSW > shop-teacher 07/03/2019 at 15:14

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Thanks! But we’re not going to upgrade it.  We plan to tear the whole thing down.   

Cash Rewards > Snuze: Needs another Swede 07/03/2019 at 15:21

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I went Saturday of memorial day, and it was packed.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Cash Rewards 07/03/2019 at 15:24

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I think I went the 8th or 15th of June and it was also crazy.  Last weekend was not bad at all, though.  

shop-teacher > WilliamsSW 07/03/2019 at 15:51

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Gotcha.

RacinBob > Cash Rewards 07/03/2019 at 19:05

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It looks like both plugs arc’d to ground socket. Does anybody know what kind of voltage would make a surge like that? And what kind of failure would cause it?

Cash Rewards > RacinBob 07/03/2019 at 19:11

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Damn, you're right. That means current running through both hot and neutral to ground. Not good.

Cash Rewards > Snuze: Needs another Swede 07/03/2019 at 21:44

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Update: wife's local mom Facebook group talking about people with thousands in damages. Appliances toast. Someone posted a picture of a smart thermostat with scorch marks above and below on the drywall. Homeowners insurance saying they don't cover but Dominion should (good fucking luck). We're gonna get a pro out here just for piece of mind, I think. Bill Dominion for it anyway, see if we get reimbursed. 

Cash Rewards > merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc 07/03/2019 at 21:47

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Some people in the area are talking about fried appliances. We got lucky. They got thousands in damages and their insurance told them to work it out with the power company, it's their problem. 

Cash Rewards > Aremmes 07/03/2019 at 21:48

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People in neighborhood are talking about toasted major appliances and thousands in damages they're gonna have to fight to get covered from the power company. I think we're gonna get a pro for piece of mind. 

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Cash Rewards 07/04/2019 at 11:11

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Sounds like a plan! Good luck with Dominion and I hope they don’t find anything wrong in your place. If you need an electrician I can recommend a few people.

One thing you may want to consider is a whol e home surge protector. I think you need 2 open slots in the panel, and I want to say they run around $100. It might be a worthwhile investment for a little extra piece of mind.  

merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc > Cash Rewards 07/04/2019 at 14:20

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That’s interesting.  But I guess so.  We had a temp pump failure that flooded a bunch of basements and had to pay out to repair everything damaged.  We were the contractor working for the city utility.  Still blows though, as you’d think the insurance company would have more leverage with the power company.  

Cash Rewards > merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc 07/04/2019 at 14:37

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It could vary. We have USAA, I'd be surprised if they didn't go after them for us if we needed to. I haven't called them yet, probably won't if it's just the one outlet