Freon?

"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn) 07/01/2019 at 16:42 • Filed to: None

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My son’s friend has a  1999 Chevy Silverado and the AC doesn’t blow cold. He said he needs to add freon, but can you do that any more? Don’t you have to actually get any leak repaired rather than just filling it with freon so it can leak out again?

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > ttyymmnn 07/01/2019 at 16:49

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Depends on how fast it leaked out. A lot of R134A systems can develop a really mild leak at, say, the compressor seals, and in the short term you can just top it up.

The smart move is actually to top up, but with a can as has fluorescent dye, so you can get your A/C now, and a leak found for the future.

Darkbrador > ttyymmnn 07/01/2019 at 16:50

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One can get a recharge kit @ O’Reilly/Autozone, gas + hose/connectors. The plugs are right there on the top right of the engine compartment.

I had to refill mine a few years back after many years in hot weather, and it didn’t leak or went bad since then. 

Ash78, voting early and often > ttyymmnn 07/01/2019 at 16:51

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Pretty much. It’s a closed system, so HVAC people (cars or homes) will usually tell you that if you top it off, it’s probably gone again a day later. At least a shop can do a pressure test and assess what you really need.

user314 > ttyymmnn 07/01/2019 at 16:52

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I imagine he’s saying freon colloquially; a ‘99 Silverado would have R 134a. Still though, yes, any leak should be fixed first.

ranwhenparked > ttyymmnn 07/01/2019 at 16:54

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A ‘99 wouldn’t have Freon, it would be R134a. You can recharge it if you want, it’s a do it yourself job, but you will be throwing money away because it is going to just leak back out again unless you repair it properly. If it’s a slow leak, it might last you the rest of the summer, if it’s a bad one, forget it.

Ive got the same thing going on with my home a/c - the system's the original from 1983 and the condenser coil is finally corroding. I don't want to deal with the $6000 repair bill right now, so am just rationing the Freon I have left, only running it on really hot and humid days and hoping I can get through the summer and deal with it properly next year.

Ash78, voting early and often > ttyymmnn 07/01/2019 at 16:59

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FWIW to the younger folks: “Freon” is normally used like “Kleenex” to mean any kind of refrigerant, even though it hasn’t been used much in like 20+ years.

ttyymmnn > Ash78, voting early and often 07/01/2019 at 17:03

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And maybe that’s the source of my confusion. I thought freon, as such, was an ozone depleter. Is that why they don’t use it any more? Or something? I don’t know....

His Stigness > Ash78, voting early and often 07/01/2019 at 17:15

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But why pay someone to diagnose your problem when you can Google it and just waste more money by throwing parts at than you otherwise would have paid to have a professional diagnose the problem correctly the first time?

Ash78, voting early and often > ttyymmnn 07/01/2019 at 17:19

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Yep, it’s illegal to put it into newer systems , and even if you can get it I’ve heard it’s phenomenally expensive. Even the older R-refrigerants are pretty pricey. My fridge guy actually uses nitrogen to diagnose leaks because it all costs so much now.

Ash78, voting early and often > His Stigness 07/01/2019 at 17:22

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I only wish I had all the time I spent back in my 20s thinking “I can just DIY this!” with no improvement. I mean, it was some good experience and I learned a lot, but I wish I had taken my cars to the shop a little more than I did.

Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. > ttyymmnn 07/01/2019 at 17:22

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From what I recall, these quick DIY A/C rechsrge  kits have some chemical in them to help stop leaks. But like most of those stop-leak chemicals it really doesn’t fix the problem but just delays the inevitable and gums up the system in question.

user314 > ttyymmnn 07/01/2019 at 17:23

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Bingo. Freon was actually a trademark under which a host of CFCs and HCFCs were produced. Most A/C systems used R-12 or R-22 until the late Eighties, after which R-134a or R-410a (which falls under the “Freon” trademark)   became the norm.

MattHurting > user314 07/01/2019 at 17:34

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I worked at a parts store in the mid-90s when R-12 was being phased out. Our District Manager was selling the big bottles of R-12 to the highest bidder. Total scam. No wonder Hi-Gear Auto Parts is no longer around.

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > His Stigness 07/01/2019 at 17:38

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Why pay a professional to F—- it up when I can do that myself and save thousands?

Sorry, there are ZERO good mechanics in this area.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. 07/01/2019 at 17:38

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The leak stop additives are designed to make o-rings swel l, which in the unlikely event that is the cause of a leak, it might work f or a little while. Until the O-ring disintegrates...  

Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 07/01/2019 at 17:43

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Exactly - without addressing the real problem the leak is just going to happen again.

I did use some radiator  stop-leak crap in my old free Ferd Windscar, but IDGAF about that POS and wasn’t going to spend real money on it. If it was a car that I cared about I wouldn’t touch that stuff.

ShrimpHappens, née WJalopy > ttyymmnn 07/01/2019 at 17:50

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I looked into this a few years ago, and the DIY refrigerant can with built-in gauge was like $50 at Oreilly, and a system check & charge  was like $65 at the oil change place next door.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > ttyymmnn 07/01/2019 at 18:04

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That truck will have R-134a for the refrigerant , and not the old R-12 that was trademarked as ‘freon.’ R-12 was phased out in the mid 90's. R-134a can be bought over the counter at most parts stores and even usually at Walmart (although if I had a magic wand of power I would do away with those quick recharge kits with a charge hose and low-side gauge that lead folks who don’t know what they’re doing into a process with dangerous risks and incomplete information on what the system is doing without a reading on the high-side of the system)   . R-12 is still available if you have an EPA 609 certification , but at a significant cost.

Technically speaking, it is an EPA violation to dispense a refrigerant into a system with a known leak. Any loss of refrigerant is a sign of a problem.   The correct answer is to evacuate the system, make the needed repairs, leak test the system and then recharge. Any kind of significant leak is going to mean that adding some R-134a to “top up” the system is likely to be a very short term solution. The correct way to charge A/C anyway is by weight and not pressure.  The problem is that A/C work gets very expensive pretty quickly.

That said, it isn’t impossible for there to be some kind of very, very slow leak in which it might buy you some time. Officially , one should never do that. Unofficially, one might have once owned a GMT 400 based vehicle with such a very, very minor leak in which adding a few ounces of 134a every 2-3 years or so kept things blowing very cold for many years and not felt the need to replace the rear evaporator.

ttyymmnn > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 07/01/2019 at 18:06

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Thanks. I’ve forwarded this thread to my son’s friend. 

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. 07/01/2019 at 18:06

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In my hydraulic mechanic days, we could always spot when folks had tried a stop-leak by the seals that had turned to mush.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > ttyymmnn 07/01/2019 at 18:21

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A/C is kind of a mystery to a lot of people, even car guys. It should be treated with respect, as it is one of the few things that can actually kill you if something goes wrong. Those kits terrify me, because the one gauge only tells you what is happening on the low-side of the system. Without a reading on the high-side, you don’t have a full picture of what is happening in the system. In the event of something like a blocked orifice tube (because it becomes full of debris from a failing compressor or something of the like), you would have a continually low reading on the low side that wouldn’t necessarily increase with added refrigerant. It could lead someone to keep overcharging the system until either a high-pressure relief valve blows on a compressor (best case, and damaging the compressor), or something else in the system or gauge set actually blows apart (worst case, something else comes apart first with the potential for shrapnel and pressure and/or freeze injuries) .

Charging by pressure alone (even with a full manifold gauge set) is only an approximation influenced by temperatures and compressor speed. If you know enough, it’ll get you in the ballpark. Charging by weight is the only way to actually get the refrigerant level correct. Normally I’m all for folks DIYing it up and learning, but I’ve got a soapbox about this. Have your son’s friend either pay to have it done right and/or learn how to work on A/C from someone that  knows what they’re doing.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > ttyymmnn 07/01/2019 at 18:24

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In my college days I tried those and the stop seal and the first time it worked but when I did again a year later, no luck. When I added the uv dye, my condenser looked like a crime scene.

Given the workout the ac must get in Texas, I would look for the A  permanent solution from a professional

His Stigness > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness 07/01/2019 at 19:02

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But that's not the case everywhere. 

His Stigness > Ash78, voting early and often 07/01/2019 at 19:03

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But you're way more adult than most people. It never ceases to amaze me to see how stubborn "adults" can be. But it's okay, I sit back and laugh because nine times out of ten I know what the problem is without even looking at the car because I have actual experience fixing things. And I'm also good at what I do. But I don't work for free. 

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 07/01/2019 at 23:02

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“you need a certification to work with electricity, but any moron is trusted with hydrau lics”- AvE

“hey lets add heat to a volume controlled system and see what happens!

merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 07/01/2019 at 23:18

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They do still label cans as Freon but yeah, it’s just R134a. This could confuse the situation. At least this stuff doesn’t have the leak stop in it. And it’s cheaper at oreillys.  

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc 07/01/2019 at 23:43

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Holy markup, Batman. Last time I bought a case of 134a it was around $3/can.

Ash78, voting early and often > His Stigness 07/02/2019 at 08:07

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Most of your customers are probably older than you, too, right? A lot of people in middle age (or older) automatically look down at younger people — they may not have the years of experience, but you don’t know the quality of their experience and expertise. I get the impression you deal with a lot of that at the shop...including the boss.

merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 07/02/2019 at 10:08

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Yeah, now it’s about 7-8 a can at oh reallys.  The stuff with dye and no leak stop is $20 a can

His Stigness > Ash78, voting early and often 07/02/2019 at 10:44

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It’s not even about my age, there’s a certain subset of people who just refuse to pay any professional to properly diagnose their car. But as I do smog inspections I hear these people bitch when their car can’t pass smog. And at that point I’m laughing because they could have saved so much money had they had someone qualified diagnose and repair it.

But, the flip side is a lot of people can get screwed when they take it to someone they think is qualified and they have no idea how to fix it. I've gotten calls from many shops asking how to fix the car I just failed. A technician in their 20's should not have to tell a shop owner who's 40 or older and presumably been working on cars their whole life hoe to fix a simple emissions failure.