Let's talk about backup cameras: Why do they all suck?

"If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent" (essextee) 06/10/2019 at 22:56 • Filed to: Rant

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No, not the idea of cameras themselves. They’re quite useful, and the utility they provide has great safety benefits. I’m talking about the actual hardware. They seem to be a few generations behind the times, and for seemingly no reason.

In this day and age, phone cameras are smaller than buttons and produce images of a quality that would have been unheard of ten years ago.

Meanwhile, our cars are saddled with these huge growths that are visible from space, and the image you get in the cabin brings to mind a 1998 Sony Mavica, or an early webcam.

So what gives? Are car manufacturers really that cheap that they’d buy outdated tech because “eh, that’s good enough”? Is a proper, discrete camera REALLY that much more expensive?

fintail > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 06/10/2019 at 23:01

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All of the MBs I’ve owned with them have very clear displays, almost phone-like.  Also hidden fairly discreetly.

BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 06/10/2019 at 23:03

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I would tell you if mine would cooperate.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > fintail 06/10/2019 at 23:04

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As it should be, since they are premium  products. But a $20k Nissan is still a good chunk of change and there’s no good reason it should have a worse camera than a $100 cell phone.

nj959 > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 06/10/2019 at 23:05

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If I had to guess, I’d say it’s most likely a combination of increased durability requirements and the long development time for cars.

I will say that in the last year or two infotainment has gotten much, much better. The best systems these days are finally as quick and fluid as your average smartphone, which wasn’t the case for the longest time.

fintail > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 06/10/2019 at 23:05

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But knowing most of Nissan’s product line, it is the same unit they used in 2011, right?  That could be it.

For Sweden > BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo 06/10/2019 at 23:07

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These are confusing times

For Sweden > BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo 06/10/2019 at 23:07

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These are confusing times

BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo > For Sweden 06/10/2019 at 23:09

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The camera matches the car perfectly.

facw > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 06/10/2019 at 23:17

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I would say it’s for the same reason that in the mid-’00s, car companies were still frequently shipping head units that didn’t support mp3, didn’t support mass storage, didn’t support Bluetooth, and didn’t have Aux jacks. Their development cycles are slow, and they aren’t used to improving electronics mid- cycle. That said, I’m sure they are also happy to ship with a camera that casts $5 and a cheap screen instead of nice ones that cost an order of magnitude more.

It would of course be great if they stuck to more standards based parts, so that even if they shipped with components that suck, users could drop in better ones (and they could more easily upgrade without major redesigns), but that’s clearly not the way things are going.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 06/10/2019 at 23:18

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I haven’t had any problems with modern backup cameras...

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 06/10/2019 at 23:20

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The tinier the camera, the more pixels an obstruction would block. As these don’t get cleaned, any grim, splatter or dirt would block more and more of the lens. 

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 06/10/2019 at 23:26

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I had the Toyota booth and positioned all the cars for the show, I found them to be pretty nice, I’ve never owned a car with one. I like the new RAV4. 

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 06/10/2019 at 23:29

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I’m going to guess it has something to do with very different development cycles and supply chain and life cycle requirements for cars. Things don’t tend to change very often in a car’s development cycle, and I can imagine the supply chain becoming problematic to keep and support a model with umpteen different camera possibilities over the 10-20 year life cycle of the car throughout which replacement parts will have to be available.

The other difference I see is the service life and durability requirements being much greater on a car. That camera has to operate and survive over an enormous range of temperatures and environmental factors, and withstand a lifetime of bumps, buffeting, atmospheric exposure and vibration. And when it comes to that lifetime, it’s expected to last 10-15+ years, as opposed to not more than maybe a year or two of quality servic e for a phone   before being traded in for minimal value and sold cheaply to the second and last owner who might use it another or year or two before it becomes trash.

QCGoose > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 06/10/2019 at 23:30

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I will say that my wife’s old 2014 Ford Flex had a better reverse camera than what’s in her 2018 Toyota Sienna; the image and resolution of the Flex’s camera was FAR clearer and superior, as well as having the “steering path lines” that moved with the steering input.

I still use reverse cameras as little as possible when backing up as I try not to rely on them , but man I miss the better quality image in her older car when I actually do use it in her new van .

fhrblig > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 06/10/2019 at 23:34

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The camera on the ProMaster is pretty good, actually. They mounted it way at the top of the rear doors and it gives a great clear aerial view of everything. And they made it so that you can turn it on at any time.

His Stigness > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 06/10/2019 at 23:43

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The rear camera on my MKVIIs is beyond fantastic and I’ve only seen it rivaled on cars that start at double the price, and they’re still German. A lot of it has to do with the screen, but obviously, the camera is important too.

But I think VW currently has the coolest rear camera mechanism on the market.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 06/10/2019 at 23:58

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My base Jetta does a decent job. Picture is clear and well-angled, and you have to be looking fairly closely to spot the camera.

hike > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 06/11/2019 at 00:02

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I wish I had a picture of the one in the Alfa Guilia. It’s the single worst back up camera I’ve come across.

As for your question, probably a combination of vehicle development cycles being very long, durability requirements, and penny pinching.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 06/11/2019 at 01:07

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All backup cameras are pretty useless as designed. They are meant for not running over your child and for seeing enough to get into the general vicinity of a spot. I would rather the camera be at the top of the vehicle and aimed at only the bumper. This allows for extreme parallel parking by using the camera to get to less than an inch between bumpers. I’ve done this with a custom camera and tested it to pretty good success. It was kind of fun parking in a spot that the car barely fit in. Just generally seeing behind me seems a task better suited by designing a car with sight paths. 

AestheticsInMotion > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 06/11/2019 at 02:14

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Have you driven anything that used multiple camera FOV’S to stitch together a a top down image showing the car and about 2 feet in every direction? That’s my favorite so far. Super helpful for exactly what you were talking about.

I also want to see cameras that can stay on while moving. That's my number 1 pet peeve. 

AestheticsInMotion > fhrblig 06/11/2019 at 02:15

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So you can drive around with it on? I've wanted that for so long in various work vehicles with no rear window, or even my Miata for driving with the top up

pip bip - choose Corrour > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 06/11/2019 at 03:52

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they just do

Dogsatemypants > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 06/11/2019 at 04:41

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Probably has a lot to do with long product development cycles, and cost cutting.

McMike > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 06/11/2019 at 05:21

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So what gives? Are car manufacturers really that cheap that they’d buy outdated tech because “eh, that’s good enough”? Is a proper, discrete camera REALLY that much more expensive

No, but think of the timeline. Everything in cars is outdated. Radios, navigation, touchcreeens, and yes... cameras.

These devices were tested and designated into the vehicle a few years before it went on sale, then remain in the vehicle until the next update/refresh. So yeah, that shit is old.

Your brand new 2019 car could easily have a camera in it that was selected in 2010 .

fhrblig > AestheticsInMotion 06/11/2019 at 05:54

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You can, but it turns off after one minute once you go above a couple mph. Still, it's handy for parking, especially if you pull through a space and want to make sure you aren't overlapping two spaces.

jimz > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 06/11/2019 at 06:29

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in the dark your phone camera will give you a shitty blur or barely any image at all. The backup camera can give you a useful image using nothing but the light from your car’s reverse lights. Your phone will complain and shut down if it gets below freezing or much above 100F ambient. That backup camera has to work between -40 and +105C. Your phone is expected to last a few years. That backup camera is expected to last at least 10 years and/or 150,000 miles. And endure vibration, mechanical shock, thermal shock, and temp/humidity cycles that would kill pretty much any mobile phone in existence within minutes.

Automotive electronics are ~5 years behind state of the art because they have to be; state of the art is almost never durable enough for the expected conditions.

BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind > BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo 06/11/2019 at 06:40

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It’s funny, I was just going to post how VW’s backup cameras are the best of the bunch. 

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > His Stigness 06/11/2019 at 06:58

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That looks like it’s just asking to fail.......

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 06/11/2019 at 06:59

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Me either.

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 06/11/2019 at 07:01

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I don’t have any issues with my backup cameras......

They work perfectly every time  with great sight lines.

StndIbnz, Drives a MSRT8 > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 06/11/2019 at 08:05

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I think part of it is the fact that if it’s an older car, they don’t update the camera every year or even 2-3.  Only gets done with a refresh.  So you can have a “new” car that actually came out 4 years ago running a 4 year old camera.  Grand Cherokee compared to the new Ram and Wrangler is a great example.  The Ram and Wrangler have some of the best camera’s in the game, super clear and great lines.  GC is good, but you can tell it’s an older piece of hardware.

404 - User No Longer Available > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 06/11/2019 at 08:19

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Honestly I’ve never really paid attention. I’ve never substitute proper mirror adjustments and turnaround checks with cameras, even when I know they are there.

Although one possibility is that a sensor used in automotive versus say a smartphone would have very different properties, not in terms of sensor quality but ruggedness and weather shielding, and durability comes at a cost .

On that note... the backup camera was the first thing that didn’t work on my sis’ Macan, lol.

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > His Stigness 06/11/2019 at 08:51

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I’ve had people ask if the display in my 2016 GTI is high definition, it’s that good. I’ll also say that the 2014 Mazda3 image is quite clear if the camera lens is clean , but it is exposed unlike the GTI (as shown above).

merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness 06/11/2019 at 09:35

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Same can be said for almost all the features on my 10 year old German luxobarge.  Same. Exact. Thing.  :)

Milky > McMike 06/11/2019 at 09:50

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This is the correct answer.  Car companies are a lot slower than people realize.  

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > AestheticsInMotion 06/11/2019 at 11:29

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Yup, I think it was in a 6 or 7 series BMW of some sort. The car had a screen that legitimately looked like I was playing GTA 1 on the Playstation 1 which was kind of neat. Also had a full 3D sound and heat map of objects near every bit of the car. It sounded like some crazy arcade inside that car while parking in the valet lot I was working for. And this was in around 2010 so I am sure it wasnt a cheap option then!

Really just any creative use of cameras beyond “we did this to meet a federal regulation” or “we did this to save money on creating a car you can actually see out of the back”. It seems like such a tack on “because we had to” rather than some sort of “feature”. That’s why I enjoy what Honda has done at least with the turn signal cameras, its kinda neat. 

His Stigness > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness 06/11/2019 at 11:29

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Well, you know, moving parts do eventually wear out...

Oh, you probably meant to say it’s going to break soon because it’s a VW part.

That's clever. 

His Stigness > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com 06/11/2019 at 11:31

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My e-Golf was the updated MK7 so it has the bigger glass touch screen and it looks beyond amazing. But when I had a loaner MK7 with your screen (when I had my TDI in for the "fix") I never did a direct comparison. But I do remember it being good, as it should be. 

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > His Stigness 06/11/2019 at 12:05

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I more meant a mechanism like that seems like something that would wear out/break very quickly.

His Stigness > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness 06/11/2019 at 12:41

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Because it’s a VW. Yeah, I got it. I’m aware that all things German are supposedly crap, that’s why millions upon millions of people in Europe buy VWs. 

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > His Stigness 06/11/2019 at 13:00

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Nothing to do with brand. It’s an over- complicated design for sake of style. Every manufacturer does it.

His Stigness > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness 06/11/2019 at 16:38

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But it’s not for the sake of style, it’s incredibly functional. First, it keeps the camera completely covered except when in use, which is great when it’s raining or snowing. And it also makes it incredibly easy to retrofit into a car. They don’t need to make a new bumper just to add a backup camera. So for VW to have a backup camera standard as they’re required to, all they had to do was change the emblem.

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > His Stigness 06/11/2019 at 17:13

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Now looking at it that way, it seems much more sensible.

Honest question, have you ever had it freeze up in winter? 

His Stigness > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness 06/11/2019 at 17:53

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I live in Southern California so our cold is hot for real winter.

But it looks like if you have ice forming over the emblem that could cause a problem. But as that’s also the latch I think most people will break it off before they use the camera.

But I would also imagine it would be very unlikely for ice to form over the emblem as it sticks out and the gap between the emblem at the hatch is large enough that the water would have to flash freeze.

https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6645

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > His Stigness 06/12/2019 at 07:17

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Good info, thanks for the insight.

superdave847 > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 06/12/2019 at 19:15

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My E90 used sonar which never let me down. Cheap,  effective, and it left the dashboard simple