Would you rather... Panda vs. Niva

"Snuze: Needs another Swede" (markg) 06/07/2019 at 13:28 • Filed to: None

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Given the choice, which 4x4 shitbox would you import (to the USA, so 25 year rule), a Fiat Panda 4x4 (or Lancia Y10 or SEAT Marbella) or a Lada Niva 4x4? Why?

Both cars underwent pretty major revisions in the early 90s - the Fiat had their second face-lift in 1991 while the Lada got it’s first major redesign in 1993 (1 year before the 25 year import cutoff). In each case it was a big deal because the manufacturer introduced electronic fuel injection.

For Sweden > Snuze: Needs another Swede 06/07/2019 at 13:32

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Why would you buy a post-socialism R ussian car?

E90M3 > Snuze: Needs another Swede 06/07/2019 at 13:33

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Lada, I have a strange want for a Russian car after I spent two months there. 

benjrblant > For Sweden 06/07/2019 at 13:38

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Decay buys too many beaters > Snuze: Needs another Swede 06/07/2019 at 13:38

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Lada. It ’ll run poorly, but forever

CalzoneGolem > Snuze: Needs another Swede 06/07/2019 at 13:39

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Well the Panda is probably going to be nicer but since Canada got the Lada parts might be more available? I don’t know.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > For Sweden 06/07/2019 at 13:44

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It doesn’t have to be post-socialism, a during-socialism Russian car would be acceptable. I just know that in 93 the Lada got its first major update, and it contains things that would commonly be thought of as good, like fuel injection, electronic ignition, a 5 speed transmission, upgraded suspension and drivetrain parts, etc.

But that does make one wonder what’s better, a socialist carburetor or a capitalist fuel injection system?

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > Snuze: Needs another Swede 06/07/2019 at 13:45

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i think i need both

the niva can be my winter toy and the 4x4 for the rest of the year

punkgoose17 > Snuze: Needs another Swede 06/07/2019 at 13:48

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Panda please. I am a fan of the Panda in general.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Decay buys too many beaters 06/07/2019 at 13:50

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I’ve heard that about the Lada as well. They will always run and get you where you need to go, but it may not be as quickly as you’d like, and you may arrive with less parts than you started with.

Weirdly, the Fiat Panda has a pretty good reputation for reliability. I don’t know if that’s just compared to other Fiats or in general.

But it does beg the question, which is more reliable? A “highly reliable” Italian car or a communist design based on an older, less reliable Italian car ? (Don’t forget that the Niva is basically a VAZ parts bin special of the 2103/6 which were clones of the Fiat 124/5).  

SiennaMan > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 06/07/2019 at 13:52

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I have a similar but slightly different take.  You want both so that you have a sporting chance that one will be running at any given time..  (I assume both are reasonably simple,  but that parts are going need to be shipped from halfway around the world..)

Klaus Schmoll > CalzoneGolem 06/07/2019 at 13:56

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Nah, the Panda is as bare bones as possible. Think Italian 2CV. The Lada in comparison feels like a plush luxury car.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > SiennaMan 06/07/2019 at 14:00

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they are both incredibly simple to work on (and the panda is very cleverly designed)

but yeah... parts could be problematic over there

(im europe tho.... so mostly parts are plentifull)

(4x4s are getting rare n pricey tho)

Svend > Snuze: Needs another Swede 06/07/2019 at 14:01

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Got to be a Panda 4x4.

Very solid and reliable, easy to repair when they do break.

Also, open to customisation quite easily.

For Sweden > benjrblant 06/07/2019 at 14:06

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Sounds like capitalist propaganda but ok

For Sweden > Snuze: Needs another Swede 06/07/2019 at 14:06

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There is no ethical injection under capitalism

Decay buys too many beaters > Snuze: Needs another Swede 06/07/2019 at 14:07

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Honestly, I bet reliability would probably be a wash, hardest part for the US at least is going to be finding parts and documentation, especially in english. That probably gives the panda a slight edge, but I sure do like how the lada looks. 

Snuze: Needs another Swede > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 06/07/2019 at 14:20

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I’m actually kind of considering getting one or the other. Nothing firm yet, I’m still feeling it out, but I’d love to have a weird little car to take to Cars n Coffee and such things , and something about the weirdness of a 4x4 hatchback econobox appeals to me.

I’ll be in Europe later this year - coming to visit my sister and BIL in Germany and then Mrs. Snuze and I may go to some other country for a bit, just not sure where yet. But I may make a side activity out of locating a Panda or Niva to buy and ship home.

SiennaMan > Snuze: Needs another Swede 06/07/2019 at 14:26

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I think this is an incredibly cool idea.  The only thought I have is you might want to identify a junkyard that you like/trust that you can buy parts from to have shipped over when the inevitable happens.. 

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > Snuze: Needs another Swede 06/07/2019 at 14:28

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nivas can be found dirt cheap

4x4 pandas eeeeh... not so much... least not in my little country

closer to italy maybe

had a quick look and only found 1 for sale.... it is practically brand new tho

14.654km on the odo 8750 euros

its a 96 tho so its a little too new... unless you’re in canada  https://www.marktplaats.nl/a/auto-s/fiat/m1410728988-fiat-panda-1-1-trekking-4x4-14-654-km-bj-1996.html?c=be2da871b0d84f75c3056cc6db858f31&previousPage=lr

LongbowMkII > For Sweden 06/07/2019 at 14:40

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*looks at climate data* accidentally correct is the worst type of correct

Snuze: Needs another Swede > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 06/07/2019 at 14:43

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Ooof! € 8750?

I mean, it looks like a nice example, but wow. I had no idea they were that much. Though they were sold a lot of places, so I’ll look in other countries. I know there were  also badge engineered versions by SEAT and Lancia, so I would consider one of those as well.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > Snuze: Needs another Swede 06/07/2019 at 14:50

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yup that much... anywhere between 5-12k ive seen em here

im thinking italy spain and possibly the east bloc are your best bet for finding a solid one at a reasonable price... maybe france too

Snuze: Needs another Swede > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 06/07/2019 at 14:53

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We went to Budapest in 2017 and one of my thoughts for this year was Prauge . I need to do my homework first, though, because I want to see a car and drive it before I buy it, but I know there’s a bit of a process to buy a car and ship it and all that, so I need to plan this all out in advance.  

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > Snuze: Needs another Swede 06/07/2019 at 14:59

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welp.. good luck :)

ranwhenparked > Snuze: Needs another Swede 06/07/2019 at 15:00

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Niva, definitely. But, if I'm going Russo-Soviet, it would preferably be of the RWD variety, maybe a GAZ Volga M24 or M24-10, or an ultra rare in this country 3102. 

AMC/Renauledge > Snuze: Needs another Swede 06/07/2019 at 16:13

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Honestly, I’d take the Panda 4x4 on looks alone.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > ranwhenparked 06/07/2019 at 16:32

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That 3102 is such fancy!

duurtlang > CalzoneGolem 06/07/2019 at 19:05

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The Panda, as a FWD car, was the cheapest thing you could buy new. See those slots under the front window? Now look for a picture of the dash and look for air vents.

The Panda is an icon, but it doesn't get more bare bones than that.

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > Snuze: Needs another Swede 06/07/2019 at 19:14

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Can I have both? I would have to say that I would go with the Panda if I HAD to. :P

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > Snuze: Needs another Swede 06/07/2019 at 19:55

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As a former Niva owner and driver...Niva. Then I can enjoy watching you go through the same emotions I did...and I actually had a good Niva. It was actually a good little car...like a Samurai but really comfortable.

All that said...if you live anywhere that uses road salt, don’t bother getting a Niva.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media 06/08/2019 at 06:16

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Wow, thanks for the insight. The road salt is a great point I wouldn’t have thought of, I had assumed great peoples 4x4 would be all but impervious to salt. Then again I guess it snows so much in the Motherland that they just learn to live with snow and don’t bother with salt. I live near Washington, DC and we get a few snows a year but they do salt. However I’d probably still keep my Cruze, though I’d be sad cause the 4x4 would be nice in the snow.

I have heard they are prone to rust and if I get one I’d probably clean it up and then coat the underbody and whatever else I could with truck bed liner, so that might help.

What year was your Niva? From what I’ve read they were basically unchanged from 19 76 to 1992, aside from a minor facelift in the 80s. T hen in 1993 they received some major upgrades - 1.7L engine, fuel injection, electronic ignition, 5 speed gearbox, interior redesign. Being in the US I’m subject to a 25 year import ban, so right now Im limited to only 1993 and 1994 Nivas if I want a more modern one.

What did you like best about it?  What was the worst part of it?

pip bip - choose Corrour > Snuze: Needs another Swede 06/08/2019 at 08:41

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NIVA!

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > Snuze: Needs another Swede 06/08/2019 at 20:45

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I think mine dated from the mid to late 80s while I owned it in the mid 90s.

They do rust... mostly because of degraded rear hatch and window seals which lets water into the area behind the rear wheels and into the hatch frame. Since they are monocoque...extensive rust in the rear seam which runs right around the body behind the rear wheels, around the hatch and down below the bumper is terminal. I did see one unzip in the act of towing a boat...

They are a vehicle designed and engineered by Italians and made by Russians. The are solid, comfortable and quirky. My drivetrain was all Fiat and parts for it were very obtainable at the time.

Build quality was....variable. Welds in both front seats failed, the dash plastics made a 70s Datsun look like a Lexus and small parts like window winders were not fabulous.

Speaking of windows...the front door glass was raised and lowered using a cable system...which not infrequently failed. This sent the glass falling into the door frame - it never broke the glass but it was quite hard to lock the car in this state!

The drive was amazing for a car of this type and period. Independent coil suspension, disc brakes, constant all wheel drive....even Land Rover didn’t get that far until the early 90s. Certainly a better drive than the similarly sized and priced Samurai/Jimny/Sierra of the time. The Niva was never fast but it was always fast enough (I actually got done for speeding in it doing 75 mph in a 60 zone!). It was hilariously capable off road but did better on the narrow wheels rather than the fatter ones that I had.

I tried to update the suspension with better dampers (Old Man Emu from ARB) but this led to the failure of all the shock mounts in the front...more welding!

Trying to get more out of the engine was a waste of time as the driveline durability wasn’t there and the gearing was wrong anyway. However, I did see a reliable Niva with a Fiat 124 engine transplant (you could also do carb & manifold swaps from similar vintage Fiat s as the Niva engine was Fiat based).

I ended up swapping the Niva and a Series 3 Land Rover trayback for another Series 3 ute (this time a Stage 1 - basically a S3 with a Range Rover driveline).

Would I own one again? If the opportunity came up then perhaps but most are now in a pretty sorry state and they really aren’t that practical for a family.

duurtlang > Snuze: Needs another Swede 06/10/2019 at 08:08

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Here in southern Germany they are a common sight with snow plows in winter. The same thing is true for the 2000s Jimny. Anyway, those ladas tend to be relatively new and frequently rather visibly rusty. Which leads me to believe the rust proofing of a 21st century one is still like that of a 70s car. As in; terrible. Something to keep in mind.

Mk1 Pandas will rot too btw.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > duurtlang 06/10/2019 at 09:14

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Thanks for the info - I’m starting to get the impression that both can be rust buckets. I’ve been looking online at some european car sale sites and it seems like a decent Lada with no obvious rust is going to be at least 1,500 euros, but probably more like 2,000+. And that just means no body rust, most people don’t post pictures of the undercarriage.

I’m still interested but if I’m getting up into the 2,000 price range I want to see what I’m buying in person. 

duurtlang > Snuze: Needs another Swede 06/10/2019 at 10:08

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Yes, both CAN be major rust buckets. Depending on where you buy them a valid inspection means it won’t be beyond saving and it was structurally sound during the last inspection , otherwise it would’ve failed inspection. But they can still be rusty.

If you buy it in a Mediterranean area rust will not be as much as an issue. In Munich, where I currently live, cars are a lot more prone to rot due to the climate (snow /salt).