Math and Religion

"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura) 05/23/2019 at 09:52 • Filed to: None

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!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

I cannot decide whether this rises above the level of clickbait or, by how much. What do you think? (Incidentally, according to this article , I am more inclined to believe in religion.) Great math problem, though...

WilliamsSW > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/23/2019 at 10:02

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Straight clickbait imho. And I’m apparently a non  believer. :)

Spanfeller is a twat > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/23/2019 at 10:06

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So being bad at math is a link to religiosity?

That doesn’t sound very statistically sound.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/23/2019 at 10:10

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Clickbait trash

ttyymmnn > Spanfeller is a twat 05/23/2019 at 10:13

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I think it’s more about accepting an answer without proof, even if it is wrong. I’m not sure that is really a sign of religiosity or just a lack of intellectual curiosity. Of course, the Bible tells us, “Blessed are those who believe and have not yet seen,” so perhaps people who accept the wrong answer without proof are morel likely to accept the Bible without proof. 

HammerheadFistpunch > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/23/2019 at 10:16

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I’m inclined to agree with the group. click bait nonsense.

WilliamsSW > Spanfeller is a twat 05/23/2019 at 10:17

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It’s not. That’s why this is clickbait.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/23/2019 at 10:17

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“ much more likely” Uh, numbers, please...

Very small sample size. I don’t buy it.

A truly analytic brain finds that a higher power cannot be proven or disproven. I don’t know about you, but “Big Bang” sure sounds a lot like “creation”... One thing that I am very confident of, through my own experiences and others close to me , is that human perception and our overall understanding of the universe is extremely limited, but our confidence in our knowledge and what we think we know is very high.

EngineerWithTools > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/23/2019 at 10:19

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Yeah, straight up clickbait. It’s almost a parody: You’re asked a question, told the incorrect answer is intuitive and the correct one is analytics and that those correspond to belief / disbelief in religion. Umm.... if I’m analytical, shouldn’t I wonder about correlation, and not just intuit that, all of course my split-second math skills are related to religion?

(Also, I suspect there are scholars of every religion that might argue the analytical : disbeliever connection.)

Future next gen S2000 owner > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/23/2019 at 10:19

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I’m incli ned to think that if you answered 10 cents you are just bad at both math and reading comprehension regardless of your religious beliefs.

Spanfeller is a twat > ttyymmnn 05/23/2019 at 10:24

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But the reader was asked what they thought the answer was...

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/23/2019 at 10:31

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I'm terrible at math but I quite liked my dog.

ttyymmnn > Spanfeller is a twat 05/23/2019 at 10:32

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Right. And they’ll either go with their gut or take the time to figure it out. One shows a mind more accepting of something based on what they believe , while the other shows a more analytical approach. Turning that into a discussion about faith may be a bit of a stretch, but I think it shows a predilection for one way of thinking  over another. That said, I think there are plenty of scientists who believe in God, in some form or another.

Spanfeller is a twat > ttyymmnn 05/23/2019 at 10:42

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I think its a false equivalency... I’m not irreligious because I genuinely went through the bible and fact checked it... I’m irreligious because I’m lazy; so in a sense it would represent the opposite to what the article argues. 

Party-vi > Future next gen S2000 owner 05/23/2019 at 10:44

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oh

ttyymmnn > Spanfeller is a twat 05/23/2019 at 10:44

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Which is precisely why this article is clickbait. I once had a music history professor whose favorite saying was, “All generalizations are lies.”

DipodomysDeserti > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/23/2019 at 11:02

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“ I don’t know about you, but “Big Bang” sure sounds a lot like “creation””

Well, the theory was first proposed by a priest...

I think religion displays our “confidence in knowing” much more than science does. The whole point of the scientific process is to admit you don’t know something, and thus must go out and prove what exists. Most of our earliest scientists were religious folk who set out to prove the existence of god (take a look at the life of Isaac Newton).

As far as the Bang Theory goes, it has little to do with the Judeo-Christian creation story. The Christian story of creation mostly deals with the creation of the Earth (not the universe). Basic biological knowledge reveals that their creation story lacks some pretty important steps in the formation of life on Earth.

We can physically measure that our universe is expanding. That fact, the presence of the cosmic microwave background, and our knowledge of the laws of motion make it fairly obvious it all started at one point and e xpanded outward. Now, as far as what caused that, or where the singularity came from, we don’t know yet. But saying it came from a human-like being who sets up moral laws and that people are the pinnacle of this process... seems like a but of a stretch (and a very anti intellectual one at that).

Now, does any of that stuff matter when it comes to living out our measley eighty years on this beautiful place? I don’t think so, but it’s fun to think about.

Chariotoflove > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/23/2019 at 11:09

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Good mathematicians need a good intuition. Math is just the language of reason. the mind still needs to write the story.

The problem is interesting. The conclusion is over-simplistic and misleading.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Spanfeller is a twat 05/23/2019 at 11:18

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I’m irreligious because I’m lazy...

That is a striking statement because there are plenty of intellectually lazy religious people.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > ttyymmnn 05/23/2019 at 11:19

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Except those that are prefaced with the recognition that what follows will be a generalization...

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 05/23/2019 at 11:19

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Means you’re bad at math.

Spanfeller is a twat > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/23/2019 at 11:20

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I did develop my position.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > DipodomysDeserti 05/23/2019 at 11:23

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I’m no young-earther, and I work with geologists, so I can see clearly the expanse of time and how ancient the Earth (and by extension, the universe) is . I mean, we can see light from stars that are b illions of light years away... But I also admit that there is still much that is unknowable , and occurrences that, by are current understanding, are “supernatural”. To me, t he confidence of an atheist who proclaims there is no higher power ranks very closely with a person who firmly believes the universe is less than 10,000 years old.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > HammerheadFistpunch 05/23/2019 at 11:23

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Yet the math is far from nonsense. I came to the article from The Atlantic, which is better than clickbait, IMO. That’s why I was a bit surprised to find something so clickbaity. I went there for the puzzle, then got hooked up by the religiosity poser. Even then, it struck me more as astrology than theology.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/23/2019 at 11:24

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Stephen Hawking once said, and I paraphrase, “If there is a god, this was the only way he could have done it.”

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > DipodomysDeserti 05/23/2019 at 11:27

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I view religion as something one subscribes  to. My choice of verbs. And if there be a god, that god gave His creation intellectual capacity with which they might ponder and explore what got them here. There’s room for both science and religion, IMHO.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/23/2019 at 11:30

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To me, the confidence of an atheist who proclaims there is no higher power ranks very closely with a person who firmly believes the universe is less than 10,000 years old.

This is a compelling statement.

I liken the history of the planet, as we understand it, to be a film spliced together with bits taken off the cutting room floor.

ttyymmnn > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/23/2019 at 11:31

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Yeah, that was kind of the joke. But he's not wrong.

DipodomysDeserti > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/23/2019 at 11:41

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I think about it the same way. I would substitute the word religion with spirituality. In my experience religion tells you what you can and can’t believe.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > EngineerWithTools 05/23/2019 at 11:41

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The entire experience with this has been quite interesting for me. I clicked initially just for the math problem, being an 8th grade math teacher, because I was interested. Then the religion thing caught my attention, quite unexpectedly. The Oppo commentary has been very satisfying and stimulating. I am very much subscribed to a (Christian) religion and for me, only in a human can intellect and the spiritual coreside, and the challenge of reconciling the two is for me one of the most satisfying things in life to over-think.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Future next gen S2000 owner 05/23/2019 at 11:42

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Lots of levers you can pull in this one.

DipodomysDeserti > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 05/23/2019 at 11:51

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“ But I also admit that there is still much that is unknowable, and occurrences that, by are current understanding, are “supernatural”. To me, the confidence of an atheist who proclaims there is no higher power ranks very closely with a person who firmly believes the universe is less than 10,000 years old.”

Couldn’t agree more. As a little background, I’ve been teaching science classes at a religious school for the last six years. It’s an ancient reigion of which I’m not a member. My students and I have been able to give each other some very good incites into our universe over the years.

Ancient spirituality seems a lot more tuned in to me. Whereas modern religions deal a lot with the synthetic, human centric world we’ve created, ancient spirituality seems much more in tune with  the natural world.

My bird IS the word > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/23/2019 at 11:54

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definitely clickbait. I mean, a trick question is basically bait.

insofar as religion: faith is the keyword. Without being able to rationally prove or disprove god, we are left with the alternative. Rationalizing a lack thereof. In that event, we are left with the possibility that everything is meaningless, but that isn’t the kicker. We are left without continuity. God promises eternal life (although we have no idea on whether that god is benevolent or not) and thereby continuity, we will continue to persist and the actions we take have real consequences. Without a god, we are left with nothing but atoms banging into each other. To ape Dr. Manhattan, the only real difference between an alive person and a dead person is the number of particles.

Any concept of self breaks down. At that point, actions have no appreciable consequences as the entire universe either gets reset or breaks down into the void. Human existance is still doomed on an impossibly long timeframe, so even if we somehow invented immortality we would still run out of energy to sustain ourselves.

God gives hope, a chance at infinity. To give actions real permanent consequences. in that same vein, we also have to hope that the god is more in line with christians’ ideas of god (I.E just be a good person) otherwise we could be in for one bad time when we die. If we can’t prove any one religion then we cant prove any religion is in fact accurate. Continuity is the entire point of the argument.

So the choice is an existence with or without consequence. Actions not having consequence runs counter to conscious existence, so I am not sure how anyone rationalizes continuing life as an atheist, but I have yet to have a truly open conversation on the subject.

In the same vein, I consider myself a C hristian not because of the bible, but of the teachings of C hrist himself. I (believe) in him being a role model and a point to strive for, moreso than any claim at divinity. Although I would not go as far as to disagree with his divinity either. Supposedly we are all god’s children anyway, so functionally it is irrelevant to the argument.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media 05/23/2019 at 12:09

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Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Chariotoflove 05/23/2019 at 12:10

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The conclusion was more astrology than theology or intellect. I came across it in a hurry and put it out to Oppo to see what folks thought and the responses have been very satisfying.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Spanfeller is a twat 05/23/2019 at 12:19

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I enjoyed reading that; thank you for the link.

Yet isn’t that hypocritical? Isn’t it some sort of “woe is me” bullshit to want a superior force to help you out when you’re down but ignore that force when you’re not in a shitty place?

I would answer your rhetorical here with a rhetorical question of my own : If you’re in a s**ty place, and you plead for help — and there is, in fact, a god to hear your plea — do you want that god to take you out of that s**ty place, or to help you deal with being in that s**ty place while you find your own way out? I would posit that the latter is more accessible than the former.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > DipodomysDeserti 05/23/2019 at 12:22

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Hence, my choice of subscribe . Sure, spirituality also, but I need more structure to guide me. Spirituality led me to my subscription.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > My bird IS the word 05/23/2019 at 12:30

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I think it’s in the nature of man to perhaps wonder from whence he came. What was before, where is here, and why? I think religion boils down, simply, to a question in two parts: Is there a god and what is that god like?

Faith, it’s important to spell out, is not belief, but action upon that belief. Subscribing to a program and carrying it out. Structure, examples, leaders: some of us want much less of those things than others of us do. Me? I subscribe (to a Christian religion).

<< The above is purely the opinion and conviction of O.C.. Your experience will probably vary . >>

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Spanfeller is a twat 05/23/2019 at 12:31

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That’s not you in the cute tube socks, is it?

Spanfeller is a twat > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/23/2019 at 12:32

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I would prefer the former, but I understand that the latter is more realistic ... In the end what I intended to communicate in that paragraph is that religion -at least in my mind- shouldn’t be a an on/off switch like some people practice it... It is in a sense disrespectful to the concept...

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Spanfeller is a twat 05/23/2019 at 12:39

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I get that. I think it’s important to examine and analyze and that an intelligent god would rather have thoughtful children, whatever they decided to do with the existence they were given. Not just sit there and waste it.

Spanfeller is a twat > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/23/2019 at 12:42

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I’m not the person in tube socks...

Spanfeller is a twat > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/23/2019 at 12:43

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Under the intelligent god you argue, free will doesn’t exist?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Spanfeller is a twat 05/23/2019 at 12:50

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I would argue that I am supposing such a god. And to your question, not only would free will exist, but would be absolutely essential. You can always use that free will, that agency , to cancel your subscription.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/23/2019 at 12:54

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Fact. I got it right though for whatever that's worth 

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 05/23/2019 at 12:59

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It’s worth plenty. I got it wrong and I purport to be a math teacher. I also just got my new Blue Point (by Snap On) ratchet in the mail yesterday...

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/23/2019 at 13:36

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I’m really good with math up to about a 7th grade level. Like no calculator, all in my head for any of that. Beyond that, there is no calculator in the world that will make me figure it out. Like you might as well ask a fish how to drive a car. There’s just no connection.

A quality ratchet will bring your wrenching to a whole new level. The difference it can make is astounding.

EngineerWithTools > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/23/2019 at 13:58

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Yes, three cheers for Oppo! The community comes through with quality and depth again.  It’s a little island in, well, a vast wasteland.

There is a reason I only engage with internet-based-humanoids here, and occasionally over at The War Zone.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 05/23/2019 at 14:15

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Ratchet: It’s all about the profile.

This is my favorite ratchet because of the slender profile, but the action is junk .

This one is clunkier than I’d like, but the bottom end with the rings should feel good in the hand. We’ll see. I shopped pretty hard for this ratchet. I looked at the European options as well, like Hazet and Stahlwille, but they all had fat plastic handles. I have some full-polish Craftsman ratchets as well, but they’re too heavy.

I bought these recently:

The four-inch handle in 3/8 is a great combination.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > EngineerWithTools 05/23/2019 at 14:19

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It’s hard to find humans to engage with, in general. Oppo is refreshing that way.

just-a-scratch > My bird IS the word 05/23/2019 at 14:30

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I think yours is a good take on the subject, though I disagree on some fundamental points.

Ascribing meaning and purpose is not a vain or pointless effort in the case of an atheist. The meaning and purpose of life turns from an external origin to something that may be personally ascribed.

Of course, there is a risk with such an outlook. Having everyone figure it out for themselves is a much less stable philosophical track than a traditional, perhaps religious one.

Proving or disproving a certain type of god (or God) is trivially easy, though it’s also easy to disagree with one of the arguments in the logic.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/23/2019 at 15:26

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I’ve got almost as many ratchets as sockets. Every one has its purpose!

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 05/23/2019 at 15:33

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If you have the time, will you line up the 3/8 ones and take me a picture?

I have a musical background and my tools, even though many of them are pretty cheap, are instruments to me . Seriously.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/23/2019 at 15:46

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I will probably have the time. The real question is whether or not I have the memory.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 05/23/2019 at 15:55

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I’ll gently remind you...

Urambo Tauro > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/23/2019 at 18:23

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religion as something one subscribes to

“Subscribe”... I like that. I think it sums up well the way religion works for most people. Of course, some get into their respective religion more than others, but the bare minimum requirement for membership in many religions seems to be about simply “ subscribing ” to a set of notion s/beliefs .

Some religions might disagree with that definition though. When I went to church in my younger days, we once had a discussion taking a good hard look at the word “C hristianity ” and what it means to be “Christian” . The term literally means “Christ-like”, implying that in order to be a   Christian you had to be living a life that was recognizable or at l east reminiscent of Christ’s in some way. Subscribing to the set of beliefs wasn’t enough. It had to be a way of life.

Urambo Tauro > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/23/2019 at 18:36

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If a baseball and a bat cost $1.10 together, and the bat costs $1.00...

I gotta admit , r ight here is where my mind tried to skip ahead. I assumed too quickly that it was saying that the bat costs $1.00. But the question doesn’t state the bat’s actual price (“ ... the bat costs $1.00 more than the ball...” ). See, i t’ s only stating its relevance to the ball’s price. Sneaky.

Contrary to the article’s claims, I tend to think of myself as more analytic al than intuitive... so I dunno about all that . But w hat I do know is, the way this question c aught me off-guard at first sure says something about my reading comprehension LOL. This is exactly why I never got into speed-reading.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 05/23/2019 at 20:00

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I had them laid out and ready for a picture. Then a client came in and I completely spaced on it. They're still laid out so it should be easy to remember when I get to work tomorrow.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Urambo Tauro 05/23/2019 at 20:12

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Subscribing to the set of beliefs wasn’t enough. It had to be a way of life.

I’d really enjoy offering you a couple of thoughts on this, but could I do that on the sidelines? Would you consider throwing me an email message? oliphant.chuckerbutty@gmail.com

Don’t worry, no proselyting blitz, just a few thoughts.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Urambo Tauro 05/23/2019 at 20:13

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Yes, the Opposphere has universally opined that the entire thing was a clickbait trap. But it’s a great math problem.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 05/23/2019 at 20:16

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I will be greatly interested to see them. Seriously though, when I meet musicians, I will frequently ask them if I can handle their instruments, especially percussionists. Fine tools, all of it.