Here we go. Open political thread?

"I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker" (qaaaaa) 05/17/2019 at 11:00 • Filed to: None

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There’s news of a new immigration policy being pushed by the Trump administration. First off, I’ve found it hard to actually see just what the policy is. !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! Major news sites are, predictably, filled with editorials and opinion pieces when not shrouded by a paywall or request to remove adblockers (looking at you, WaPo and NYT).

Here are my takes from the transcription:

Everyone agrees that the physical infrastructure on the border and the ports of entry is gravely underfunded and woefully inadequate. We scan only a small fraction of the vehicles, goods, and all of the other things coming across, including people. And, sadly, the drugs pour across our border. We’re going to stop it.

Yes. Our ports and borders are poorly enforced. It’s kind of hard to argue against more strict searching at official ports of entry- the keystone of the Opioid Epidemic that is currently destroying our nation, my region specifically, is the poor quality of searches at various ports. That is where the drugs are crossing in greatest numbers. As I understand it, a much smaller portion is entering the country by way of illegal border crossings. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

Next up, The Wall. I still don’t see its necessity. A fifty foot wall just means fifty foot ladders. In my opinion, a more appropriate (and less ecologically damaging, since animal are stateless) mode of control is greater implementation of autonomous patrols (drones, etc) and better funding and enforcement by LEOs who are neither military nor militia. I don’t think that sending military to the border was/is a wise decision, and it sets a dangerous precedent. I don’t think that the implicit support Trump has given for independent militias is wise either, in a similar vein to Trump taking his sweet time to denounce support from various white supremacist organizations.

Trump goes on to highlight failings of our current legal framework. I do not find fault in his assessment of its failings, which incentivize smuggling of women and children. These are well-researched phenomena. Children who are brought here and separated from parents who have been repatriated should be returned to their parents- how that can be done effectively remains to be seen. There’s a fair critique of the asylum system as well- asylum seekers, where claims are legitimate ought to be allowed to seek asylum. Trump does not discuss at length what exactly is or is not a valid claim. Grounds for seeking asylum should be publicly known and debated.

Legal immigrants with active ties to criminal organizations should, in my opinion, be deported or not allowed to enter if seeking entry. I don’t think this is a controversial idea.

Now, the biggest part of the proposal- Merit-Based Immigration. The random nature of approval as it stands doesn’t make much sense to me. Per my understanding, immigration was historically merit-based in America (ie, you would be denied at Ellis Island if you were not fit to work). I don’t see why this should not remain the case. Unskilled laborers are already in surplus, immigrant or natural citizen. Immigration officials should be allowed to give preference to candidates who will more easily integrate with the workforce, particularly in industries where there is a pressing need for skilled workers. This is reasonable.  

The main critiques I’ve seen of these ideas is that is does not speak to existing programs, such as DACA. This is also a valid and reasonable complaint. People who are here under existing programs should not be harmed by a retroactive change. There should be a more clear path to citizenship for people in these and similar programs.

Pagani for your time.

Anybody else have armchair analysis?

fintail > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 05/17/2019 at 11:20

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As long as Slovenian architects and their families are given a fast track, it’s all good.

I wonder how much of the opioi d mess is home-grown.

And through it all, nobody on either side will touch the pay for play residency game.

Spanfeller is a twat > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 05/17/2019 at 11:47

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I despise Trump, but I sort of enjoy the trade war with China, from a safe distance. I hope it bursts their super power bubble.

Say what you will about us; we’re a terrible country when it comes to HR. But China is even worse, and everything that pushes China into a box is a good thing in my mind. I want them away from North America as much as possible.

As for the immigration plan, merit based won’t matter as far as what Trump wants: reduce the number of immigrants. Since many of the immigrants he wants to keep out are entering under the premise of being refugees. Many of the people entering are young, or children and considering that the US age pyramid is turning a bit too fat in the middle this is a good thing.

Now, all of what I’m saying (except the age pyramid stuff) can also be said about Mexico; since we signed all the treaties on refugees yet we’re actively making their lives miserable through active persecution. Lopez Obrador offered refugee visas but our Immigration Institute was so overwhelmed by the demand that they decided to shut the program instead.

I wished we could have an open border like in the EU; but it can’t be the case because of all the mistakes our governments make as far as public safety and health is concerned.

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > Spanfeller is a twat 05/17/2019 at 12:17

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Oh, I don’t think it was clear in my post, but I am incredibly dissatisfied with Trump, mostly based on his economic policy and horrifying rhetoric, but still, these proposed points are reasonable to me.

I’m open to a larger immigrant population. I don’t think it’s fair, reasonable, or possible to just say “less immigrants.” I think the numbers we are letting in a reasonable, but it’s also reasonable to give preference to immigrants who will be more economically beneficial to the country.

As for open borders, hell no. It works in the EU because each country is fairly similar in terms of culture. I really don’t think you can say the same for North/Central/South America. EU countries are also a lot smaller in terms of square miles and population and are more reliant on each other for strong economies. Again, not really the same for the US.

Tapas > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 05/17/2019 at 12:24

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Trump is bad, impulsive, cruel and incompetent. And he’s attracted like-minded, cruel and insane people to act under his protection.

Not all immigrants are good, but the immigration policies are malicious, cruel and intended to allow as few immigrants as possible.

Immigrants may make disingenuous refugee claims, but the current border infrastructure has been maliciously set up to not review their case expeditiously or at all. The immigration policies are meant to shaft all refugees ,regardless of how genuine their situation is.

US is bad, but China is worse. I am not against both Trump and China being taught a lesson because of Trump’s utter stupidity. I know it’s at the expense of the US economy. My investments are crying.

My bird IS the word > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 05/17/2019 at 12:31

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Trump has his uses, mostly as a wrecking ball. If we could get a president like him that was actually tempered and intelligent, I would be a happy camper.

I don’t necessarily think a wall is our best solution, but I do agree with strong border security and merit based immigration. Primarily, the object of the government is to provide the best possible protection and quality of life for it’s citizens first, not the citizens of other countires. Somewhere that message was lost, and it is almost like we made ourselves responsible for the greater world sucking.

nermal > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 05/17/2019 at 12:45

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I don’t see any glaring problems w/ the new immigration plans. The US “knows what they have” and can be selective with who they allow in. The new plan is more lenient than the requirements for Canada, for example. Have a policy & enforce it.

The trade war with China is good for the US. Shift demand away from made-in-China rubbish and towards made-in-USA. Also, protect US intellectual property from blatant copying.

The recent abortion stuff is bad as a whole - Not just for the meat of the bills, but they fact that they’re only going to energize the Ds & drive more voter activity in 2020. This is exactly what the Ds need. On the flip side, t he country needs 4 more years of Trump-driven prosperity. If somebody like Bernie gets elected, the stock market will drop 5k points in a day, leading an even worse recession than the last one.

WRXforScience > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 05/17/2019 at 12:46

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I don’t get people who are in favor of ‘merit based’ immigration as a way to limit immigration. Isn’t the main problem people have with immigrants is that they will, “take our jobs”? If you are preferentially bringing in skilled workers for what used to be highly paid positions (if they can bring in cheaper foreign workers they can pay less), won’t that more directly effect employment and wages.

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

Here is my immigration policy: if you can get here you’re in (we might need a quota system for a few years to adjust to the increased immigration rates) , if you don’t commit any felonies or severe misdemeanors (stuff that’d put you in jail for a few years) for the first 10 years you can stay as full citizens , otherwise we send you home. Companies that hire provisional citizens pay an extra payroll tax, and all provisional citizens/new citizens pay slightly increased, progressive tax rates (something like 10% extra nominal rate per tax bracket, so at the 15% bracket they’d pay 16.5% and at 35% you pay 38.5%).

Population is an asset and as our current population ages we’d be better off with new, younger workers to replace the retiring old ones (without immigration the US would have a negative population growth rate).

If the system can’t handle the increased immigration rate, hire some immigrants to boost productivity. Need housing? Use the increased labor pool to build more affordable housing in areas that are in decline (lots of places in the midwest have seen population decreases, so if you’re willing to move to Iowa, South Dakota, Nebraska, or anywhere else that’s dying you get priority immigration).

“Merit based” immigration is a thinly veiled way to promote a discriminatory immigration system. The “immigration crisis” isn’t that there are too many immigrants, it’s that our current system was designed to try to keep people out.

Now, you might be worried that if we open our borders the country will fill up. Don’t be, the US has an average population density of just 89 people per square mile (puts in 146t h place in the world, just behind Venezuela and about half the population density of Mexico).

Spanfeller is a twat > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 05/17/2019 at 12:52

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My understanding of the policy is that it would reduce the amount of green cards given. Put into context with how Trump sees immigration I can only draw to the conclusion that its intended purpose is reduced immigration. Put into context with how Trump’s policies have effected immigration my conclusion is that he won’t attain that goal -either the truly intended one, or the publicly given one.-

Plus, we’re not that culturally different, our economies a re deeply intertwined. The reason I think that we cannot have an open border is because Mexican police suck at catching weapons and American Healthcare and prison systems are not adequately equipped to deal with drug epidemics.

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > WRXforScience 05/17/2019 at 13:00

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I don’t get people who are in favor of ‘merit based’ immigration as a way to limit immigration. Isn’t the main problem people have with immigrants is that they will, “take our jobs”?

No. My issue is an influx of unskilled laborers devaluing all unskilled laborers. Someone has to pick tomatoes and clean toilets. If there are too many people willing to do those jobs, they’ll get paid a low wage. Limiting supply of unskilled laborers makes paying unskilled laborers a living wage feasible.

The country we have now is vastly different than the one The New Colossus was written to. Back then, we needed immigrants to do physical labor. Now, we do not. I do not see a point in devaluing our current labor.

Also, I’m pretty sure the system you described is more or less what we have right now with a twist. Requiring employers of “provisional citizens” to pay a fee per head just de-incentivizes hiring them, which results in either unemployed immigrants immigrants willing to take a well-below market wage for work. Neither case seems wise to me. Both results in a harder load on our already overburdened welfare system.

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > Spanfeller is a twat 05/17/2019 at 13:05

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Oh, I’m not deluded enough to think the intent is anything other than “less brown immigrants.” I’m pretty sure he wants white people to immigrate exclusively, even though that does not in any way reflect the culture of our country.

Me saying we’re too distinct culturally was shortsighted. The US by its very nature is culturally distinct region to region. I am sure I would feel out of place in SoCal as much as you would feel out of place in the midwest. I’ve got a few friends from PR and they behave very differently than my midwestern friends.

And yeah. Our healthcare and prison system are a complete shitshow. The way we deal with our drug epidemic is by and large a bandaid, and when the bandaids run out, we’re more than willing to let addicts die.

WRXforScience > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 05/17/2019 at 13:11

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There are labor shortages in unskilled positions. The fee was my idea at an attempt to level the field for the cost of using these laborers (so that for an employer it’s just as expensive to use an immigrant with a lower base pay as a full citizen with a higher base pay, but you’re probably right that this would probably just result in employers taking even more advantage of immigrants and paying them even less). A robust minimum wage requirement could set a floor for low-skilled wages.

The other issue we’ll have to face eventually is the graying of the population where there are too many olds and not enough young people to take their place (like what’s happening in Japan):

https://gizmodo.com/american-birth-rate-hits-32-year-low-1834844909

Spanfeller is a twat > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 05/17/2019 at 13:17

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Im not an expert in immigration; but if Dems hate it and Reps hate it, then it’s probably a bad policy....

I also think that the immigration problem that the US faces is unique in the world; since it’s the richest country on earth and also the third most populous. The math behind the world economy is -and will be as long as the wealth and size statistics remain true- not going to allow for an easy or satisfactory solution to immigration.

This world wide responsibility is also something the US has seeked since WW1 and a legacy that Trump very much wants to continue since the benefits outweighed the disadvantages for decades.

More than a tough or lenient policy the US needs a holistic policy. One that can balance individual wealth and national productivity in a way that leaves everyone satisfied. No other country or union has to think immigration with a deep a scope as the US.

Its why comparing it to Canada’s or Mexico’s ends up being futile.... and why giving so much value to the “us vs them”  is ultimately just making everything take longer to solve. 

DipodomysDeserti > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 05/17/2019 at 13:21

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“ the keystone of the Opioid Epidemic that is currently destroying our nation, my region specifically, is the poor quality of searches at various ports.”

Nah, the keystone to our opioid epidemic wasn’t foreigners. I t was US drug companies trying to get people addicted to their products with physicians aiding them in their efforts. We need to own that one.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/05/02/health/insys-trial-verdict-kapoor.amp.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/03/26/health/opioids-purdue-pharma-oklahoma.amp.html

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > DipodomysDeserti 05/17/2019 at 13:31

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Not really what I meant. Obviously the source was Rx abuse. What I meant was that the source of a vast majority of the opioids currently entering the country is via legal ports of entry. If we clamp down on inspections at ports, there will be fewer drugs in the country.

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > Spanfeller is a twat 05/17/2019 at 13:42

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IMO the dems hate it because identity politics and DACA (which is the more valid of the two problems) and the reps hate it because it’s not strict enough and identity politics. It really seems quite reasonable to me.

I think you’re right on the wealth/population issue.

Post-WWI as a result of our military and economic prowess, we have become the world hegemon. Given that we don’t have a strong manufacturing sector anymore, I don’t think we really have such an economic clout to remain such. Pretty much the only thing we produce is in the information sector and in self-supported trading with no real tangible output which only exists as a result of a lax regulatory market. Desiring to maintain power is absolutely the goal of the US Government at large, and I don’t disagree with it. To that end, I don’t think Trump’s economic policy is too bold or too far a reach to be feasible. I think his trade wars will be to the long term benefit of the country, but in the short term, will be to the detriment of the middle and lower classes, but that’s a different topic.

A lot of Trump policy is based on cherry picked policy in from other (predominantly white, European populated) countries. In reality, our situation is unique from those countries, as we are much more multicultural and lack a cohesive American identity.

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > WRXforScience 05/17/2019 at 13:47

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There are labor shortages in unskilled positions.

As it should be. That doesn’t mean we should have a surplus of unskilled laborers. IMO a properly functioning economy should always have a surplus of jobs. That’s how it was in the halcyon days we are trying to restore. A surplus of well-paying low-skill jobs is how a middle class is grown.

nermal > DipodomysDeserti 05/17/2019 at 16:13

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You got the first part but missed the remainder. Opioid addiction starts with legal prescriptions for whatever reason. However, the prescriptions run out after people get addicted. Then they switch to buying black market pills, then to heroin (since it’s cheaper). Then they get a batch of heroin laced with fentanyl, and OD and die.

DipodomysDeserti > nermal 05/17/2019 at 16:55

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I was addressing the keystone issue. Keystone being the beginning issue that everything else built off of . And as far as fentanyl is concerned, doctors were prescribing that shit from the get go because Insys was giving them kickbacks. The same was true for milder opioids.

That’s what the first link I posted addresses. My sister has been an RN through this whole thing (she’s now getting her doctorate). She was told by drug reps not to worry about the opioids they were selling being addictive, so docs were handing them out like candy for minor pain.

So the addiction didn’t start with legal prescriptions “for whatever reason”. It happened because physicians were acting as drug dealers (either out of greed or ignorance) for drug companies.

And a lot of those black market pills were making it to the black market via hospitals.

DipodomysDeserti > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 05/17/2019 at 16:57

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History has shown us that this a very poor method of fighting a drug epidemic.