Explain Performance Crossovers To Me

"Michael Cohen" (hofmeisterkinky) 12/15/2019 at 08:51 • Filed to: None

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I saw Jason Camissa’s mini review of Mercedes-AMG GLC63 S on Instagram and I’m baffled. Not by the review, Jason is among the best. I don’t get the car.

I get that not normies want to sit high; being eye level with a standing person feels natural. They may not want ground clearance or a big storage space—things traditionally associated with SUV’s. Things a “coupe” crossover doesn’t have. I also get that enthusiasts want V8 performance cars. The thing I have trouble understanding is that these can be one and the same person. I’m trying not to be judgemental. I ask in sincerity: who wants this? Why?

If this Merc or the equivalent from, say, BMW or Alfa Romeo (or Ford’s new Mustang!) looks like your jam, then I want to hear from you. Anyone enthusiastic about cars is alright by me even if  we don’t share the same taste. I’ll do my best to make the comments section a safe place.

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Thisismydisplayname > Michael Cohen 12/15/2019 at 09:00

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I love the performance SUV segment.  Case in point, Jeep GC trackhawk or the SRT Durango.  I’m looking to replace my S8 and am liking both of these.  Can’t afford the trackhawk, but the SRT Grand Cherokee is in my price range, but if I want to seat my whole family, I’d need to go for the Durango and get the third row.  But they fit the bill for me.  High power, AWD and enough seating capacity.  And they make them handle really well, not Miata levels, but definitely on par with my current S8, so I’m in.  

Wacko > Michael Cohen 12/15/2019 at 09:00

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Family fun!

Thisismydisplayname > Thisismydisplayname 12/15/2019 at 09:05

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Then again, the two row performance SUVs don’t really offer much more than sedans, but I’m over the over complex German sedan thing, so I’m looking more for a simple formula, large N/A  V8 in an AWD package that will seat at least 4 more with me, preferably seat 6, but even In the two row configuration, it’s tough to find power and AWD in an unboosted package.  

Michael Cohen > Thisismydisplayname 12/15/2019 at 09:06

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I get those SUVs for the reasons you mentioned. They seat the whole family and have lots of storage. These crossovers have no more utility than your S8, probably less. PS the S8 has to be one of the best sleepers—a car that’s waaaaay faster than it looks. They look great, just not necessarily like quarter mile champions. 

Thisismydisplayname > Michael Cohen 12/15/2019 at 09:08

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Also, it’s just the age old my car is better than yours argument. If you’re getting an SUV anyway, might as well get the biggest and fastest one so you can feel superior on the road and in the parking lot drop off lane...

and the manufacturers can get another platform to dump their high power engine into to and charge a premium for it.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Michael Cohen 12/15/2019 at 09:13

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I’ll tell you exactly who owns those, it’s wives of rich guys. Wifey wants something practical, hubby wants her to have the most toexpensive thing possible to show off their wealth. Automakers cater to this demand by making these $80k monstrosities that are bad at being both practical and sporty.

Michael Cohen > Wacko 12/15/2019 at 09:21

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A big sedan would be more fun and hold the family just as well. 

Michael Cohen > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/15/2019 at 09:24

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I see a lot of dudes in these things. I see a lot of dudes in Jason’s comments asking if they should get this or the Alfa or something else. They may be asking for wives. 

Michael Cohen > Thisismydisplayname 12/15/2019 at 09:26

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Our 2012 Cayenne S is our family vehicle and tow vehicle. NA V8. It’s a shame they don’t make that engine anymore. Too bad it’s only two rows. 110k miles and no issues yet knock on wood. 

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Michael Cohen 12/15/2019 at 09:27

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They only make sense to me if you can only afford one car and want both sportiness and practicality, but if you can afford one of these chances are you're not hurting for money.

Michael Cohen > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/15/2019 at 09:28

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I’ll be a broken record: a sedan or wagon would be just as practical if not more. 

Vicente Esteve > Michael Cohen 12/15/2019 at 09:37

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This is the way I see it: It is the easiest, least demanding way to go fast.

In a sports car, or even just a sports sedan, you have to be more aware of bad roads, people in bigger vehicles, speed bumps, sudden loss of traction (if RWD).

When you are in one of those, it’s get in and hit it. I say this as a person who lives in Mexico that has to be aware of all of those previous reasons in my 135i which isn’t even a sports car.

When I tried out a Cayenne for the first time it all made sense and I would love to roll around in one as a DD. 

Poor_Sh > Michael Cohen 12/15/2019 at 09:39

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I don’t actually know if there’s more space or ground clearance than an equivalent hatchback or wagon. But, my scenario would be if I HAD to have a vehicle with more room than my Cayman, or if a future wife wanted it or something, I have been swayed by the Macan. I generally dislike large vehicles (CUV, SUV, truck) though I do like and understand a few. But shit, if I can roll around in a luxury interior, paddle shifting PDK through tight twisties driving better than some hot hatches, and carry my new lawn mower? Bliss.

Michael Cohen > Poor_Sh 12/15/2019 at 09:49

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I think most buyers of performance sedans aren’t pulling 1 lateral g anyway. The performance penalty from a crossover probably doesn’t matter. The Macan is shockingly good,  good  enough for most people’s spirited driving. I do wish Porsche would come out with a 3 series fighter. And do a wagon version. 

Poor_Sh > Michael Cohen 12/15/2019 at 09:57

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Yeah although the Panamera is dangerously close to a 911-f eeling wagon, especially in higher trims. Doubt we'll ever see a Porsche sedan though. 

Chuckles > Michael Cohen 12/15/2019 at 09:59

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I think as car enthusiasts, we often have the tendency to say “why get X when you can get Y or Z?” And we do that because we are thinking about the entire range of cars available on sale. But I don’t think that’s how it works for a lot of people. I think that a lot of people are more focused on their own personal car experiences. Maybe the person who bought the Mercedes-AMG GLC63 S already owned a crossover. Maybe they liked it, but they wanted something with more power and more features. If that person has grown accustomed to a crossover, the station wagon is a tougher sell. A new car purchase is often a reaction to the owner's previous vehicles. People say "I liked it, but I wanted something with more power," or "my last car was nice, but I wish it had heated seats and android auto."

MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) > Michael Cohen 12/15/2019 at 10:03

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Who is to say people who want the high-chair experience of crossovers don’t also want to go fast? Traditionally I think these people would have just opted for something comfy but with the ‘big engine’.

Now when you want something ‘ comfy’ and with ‘passing power’ without getting into something ‘too big’ you get a performance CUV/SUV. The imaginary rugged qualities, independence and individualism people see in CUV/SUVs means that they can drive something fast without missing out on sitting high or the ‘capabilities’ of an SUV/CUV.

Buyers may also feel that a performance SUV/CUV is more responsible and mature than an equivalent hot hatch/Sedan 

Jay, the practical enthusiast > Michael Cohen 12/15/2019 at 10:21

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I say we should be celebrating performance models of any vehicle type. Performance trucks, sedans, compact economy cars, minivans, station wagons, even SUVs. What difference does it make the type of person who buys them? I'm happy that manufacturers are still building performance anything and that there is still a market for them. 

Michael Cohen > MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) 12/15/2019 at 10:23

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When I got to antique show I’m reminded that a lot of the pre-war stuff was really tall. I wonder if a lot of the people who want  to sit higher wanted to all along and just didn’t have the option.

Michael Cohen > Poor_Sh 12/15/2019 at 10:24

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Taycan 

Poor_Sh > Michael Cohen 12/15/2019 at 10:31

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Genuinely didn’t know that was the classification of the T aycan. I figured it was some sort of Gr an Coupe given the rear slope . E ither way what I intended was that now with sedans going away and EVs coming I doubt we’ll see a sedan with an ICE.

Michael Cohen > Poor_Sh 12/15/2019 at 10:37

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Agree

Michael Cohen > MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) 12/15/2019 at 11:17

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2nd reply to this. I argued on here a week ago that a crossover was totally logical for the Mustang brand. That’s not to say the combustion engines Mustangs can’t handle be made to handle, the Shelby’s do,  but the typical Mustang buyer isn’t getting it for handling.

LastFirstMI is my name > Michael Cohen 12/15/2019 at 11:17

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Counter-perspective: the people love wagons, eve n performance wagons, and we are living in the golden era of wagons. They’re just tall wagons. We call them “crossovers” because everyone knows they’re not really SUV’s. Look at this GLC or an X5 or even an XC90- they don’t look like an SUV and the design is drifting more and more to a lowered wagon style. Would I rather have a Porsche hot hatch , or an M5 touring? Yes. Would I drive a Macan or X5M? In a heartbeat. They provide more performance than any of us need on the street, and provide the functionality of hatches or wagons because that’s what they are! Let the marketing parasites call them crossovers, as long as we keep getting what are essentially the performance wagons we’ve always asked for. 

UserNotFound > Michael Cohen 12/15/2019 at 11:56

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Rich moms.

Wacko > Michael Cohen 12/15/2019 at 12:26

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In this case yes since these are more sedan than crossover 

xc90v8/I4 :( > Michael Cohen 12/15/2019 at 12:39

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At least this one has a v8 going for it.

I dont get all the normal Q2, Q5, X1, X3s etc..

They’re just worse in most ways than the normal car versions. 

TheRealBicycleBuck > Michael Cohen 12/15/2019 at 13:46

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I’ve been driving a Ford Edge for about a month now. I have to say that I really like it. It will never be trackable like my WRX, but it handles well enough for city traffic and accelerates a lot faster than anyone ever expects. I’ve surprised more than a few passengers when I stomped the gas to get up to freeway speed . Not all of them approved. :)

For traveling, it’s an excellent machine . It has plenty of space for four people and their suitcases. The seating is quite comfortable for everyone, even in the second row. Passengers back there have enough storage for drinks, snacks, and entertainment and the cabin is quiet enough for conversation at reasonable volumes (no yelling required).

Visibility is quite good, whether you are dealing with traffic or trying to park. It’s supplemented by a large touch screen, providing an excellent view out the back as long as the camera is clean.

Towing isn’t recommended as the capacity is quite low with the four, but is passable if you upgrade to the V6. Really, it’s comparable to towing with many sedans.

If not for the towing limitations, I’d consider one for our family. I don’t tow often, but I want the option for when I do.

Michael Cohen > TheRealBicycleBuck 12/15/2019 at 13:59

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Funny. We just had an Edge for a few days while another car was in the shop. It’s about the same size maybe a little bigger than our ‘12 Cayenne. Very nice car. I won’t trade the Porsche for one but the cooled seats and CarPlay were very nice. The sound system, B&O, was probably better.  The edge is bigger and more practical than some of these coupe crossovers. 

Michael Cohen > xc90v8/I4 :( 12/15/2019 at 14:00

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V8 all the things. Just the same Merc makes a C63 wagon but they don’t bring it to the US. 

Michael Cohen > LastFirstMI is my name 12/15/2019 at 14:01

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This a good take.

Michael Cohen > Jay, the practical enthusiast 12/15/2019 at 14:01

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I didn’t mean to stigmatize the buyers, just curious what they like about the cars. 

duurtlang > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/15/2019 at 14:34

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If you can afford one of these you can also afford a new Miata (which is way more fun to drive) AND a non-performance crossover.

duurtlang > LastFirstMI is my name 12/15/2019 at 14:41

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The marketing parasites don’t call them crossovers, they call them SUVs.

I parked next to an M version of a BMW X5 just yesterday. It looked like a bloated whale next to my regular ride height mid sized coupe. It looks like a (slightly less) bloated whale next to a 2019 5-series touring. It also has a significantly higher center of gravity and weight than a 5-series Touring.

I’m sorry, but as long as normal wagons exist, boats like the X5 and XC90 cannot be called wagons. Especially not from an enthusiast perspective. Their shape and their characteristics are fundamentally different.

Michael Cohen > duurtlang 12/15/2019 at 15:05

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I’m also a lunatic who thinks the sitting position in a Mini Cooper or M3 is too high.

HammerheadFistpunch > Michael Cohen 12/15/2019 at 15:17

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well, They’re like wagons, but that sell and with go fast parts attached.

HammerheadFistpunch > LastFirstMI is my name 12/15/2019 at 15:17

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Exactly. No one can convince me the GLA45 AMG or MACAN turbo S aren’t just super hot hatchbacks.

HammerheadFistpunch > duurtlang 12/15/2019 at 15:19

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If you are BMW, they call them SAV’s.  yuck.  

MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) > Michael Cohen 12/15/2019 at 16:20

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This is an interesting idea, that sitting tall has always been preferable, but maybe sensible options didn’t allow it?

First I would wonder what and when mass marketed automative design moved toward lower to the ground cars. I would assume it would be a result of the handling benefits from a lower COG which would be a response to the early tire and suspension tech. Time wise I have no idea.

Secondly I would think that from the 50’s up to the SUV advent of the 90’s if someone wanted to sit tall they had to get something uncomfortable, impractical and utilitarian. Early SUVs let us sit tall without compromising too much comfort. CUVs and softer SUVs are a natural extension of that demand from consumers as they provide the high chair experience with the least compromises.

I also think there is something to be said about the average age of drivers, and how easy vehicles are to exit/enter and how that dictates our preferences for seat height 

TheRealBicycleBuck > Michael Cohen 12/15/2019 at 21:09

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Just the other day I  made a joke about the Edge, for all practical purposes, being Ford’s (slightly larger) Cayenne! It has about the same horsepower, and as you noted, has almost identical dimensions. 

Nauraushaun > Michael Cohen 12/15/2019 at 21:40

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There are fast hatchbacks

There are fast sedans

There are fast wagons

There are fast pick up trucks

There are fast luxury barges

All of these are compromised in terms of performance and also compromised in terms of practicality. But they’re also more practical than a sports car and faster than the regular versions of themselves.

And you’re saying all of these make sense to you, but not SUVs?

If people want X, people also want fast X. That's all!

Michael Cohen > TheRealBicycleBuck 12/15/2019 at 23:18

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It’s nice but it has nowhere close to the steering feel, throttle response of  the Cayenne. The Cayenne feels so much better to drive. The Edge was rather vague. My wife loved CarPlay but otherwise didn’t care for the driving experience of the Edge. 

Michael Cohen > HammerheadFistpunch 12/15/2019 at 23:30

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They’re much higher is the problem—from my point of view. 

TheRealBicycleBuck > Michael Cohen 12/16/2019 at 00:42

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I’ve never driven a Cayenne, so I don’t have a point of comparison other than sports cars/sedans. I wouldn’t expect it to be directly comparable. :)

Long_Voyager94 > Jay, the practical enthusiast 12/16/2019 at 07:23

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About that performance minivan thing........When are they coming again?

Jay, the practical enthusiast > Long_Voyager94 12/16/2019 at 11:25

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https://www.topspeed.com/cars/honda/2020-honda-odyssey-type-r-ar177640.amp.html

Any day now. Any day.

Long_Voyager94 > Jay, the practical enthusiast 12/16/2019 at 12:00

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Dodge needs to move forward with their SWB minivan built on the Journey Platform with a turbo 4 theory they were working on before Sergio moved on.

UnderSTeerEnthusiast - Triumph Fanboy > Michael Cohen 12/16/2019 at 12:10

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The only real one I’m excited about is the Macan S/Audi SQ5. They can actually handle like a car, have space and nice interiors, and can tow my bikes to the track.

Michael Cohen > Nauraushaun 12/16/2019 at 13:34

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This is the best comment. 

Michael Cohen > TheRealBicycleBuck 12/16/2019 at 13:35

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Funny enough in almost all the things that aren’t driving or towing the Edge has the...edge. I’ll see myself out. 

TheRealBicycleBuck > Michael Cohen 12/16/2019 at 13:56

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