Porsche Predicament

"bobbe17" (rob-runte) 11/06/2019 at 09:40 • Filed to: None

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At least it looks good

This past May, I bought a 2006 Cayman S and had it shipped from California to Wisconsin. I’ve put about 4,000 miles on it in that time and noticed some smoky startups and oil consumption in the range of a quart every 500-1000 miles. After trying some easier fixes and diagnostics, this past weekend I used a borescope to take a look through t he spark plug hole to look for bore scoring. Sure as shit, my cylinder 6 has fairly significant scoring.

That’s not what you want to see in a cylinder

This now leads me to the predicament of what to do with the car. It still runs quite well with exception of consuming oil ( and likely spark plugs) and the oil consumption. A full rebuild to machine out the cylinders and fit sleeves is $8k+, replacement engines are $10k+, and I got a quote from Carmax to buy the car for $14k (about $8k below a good condition car). So pretty much every scenario I’m losing at least $8k.

I did have the car inspected and they gave a clean bill of health. I’m trying to figure out if I have any recourse concerning how they didn’t catch one of the most prominent failure modes of the car or note the smoky startups . I’m also trying to figure out if the dealer that sold me the car knew of any issues and failed to disclose them. I can’t imagine I have a leg to stand on but still curious if there’s any sort of consumer protection I can claim since it feels like I got pretty screwed. From service records included with the car, I have the previous owner’s contact information so I’m going to reach out to him and see if he knew of issues and disclosed anything to the dealer that sold me the car .

As far as what to do with the car, I leaning towards selling it but of course would have to disclose the bore scoring. I’m considering bringatrailer, because that seems like my best chance in someone paying decent money for a project. It’s also basically winter now which definitely complicates things as well.  Maybe I’ll keep it to spring and try to trade it in on something else then.

Me desperately trying to find a way to minimize my loss

Tripper > bobbe17 11/06/2019 at 09:51

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If it runs, trade that shit in! Most dealers barely look at trades. When I traded my E90 they drove it around the block and made one note: “nothing appears to have been welded to engine block.”

If it’s a big name dealer they’re going to wholesale it anyway.

If you sell it, you have to disclose or at least you should, the issues. I guess the argument could be made that you should do that if you trade it in too, but I wouldn’t.

If it’s a forever car for you, I’d go for the replacement engine. That was my plan for a 997 C2S, but they wouldn’t sell it to me cheap enough.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > bobbe17 11/06/2019 at 10:00

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Honestly, if it isn’t the perfect car for you, and you see one that might be a bit better, I’d add some lucas oil treatment to the engine after doing an oil and filter change and send it to a dealer on trade. Just say you realized you wanted more space/power/handling/whatever and that you didn’t enjoy driving it as much as you thought so you’d rather trade it in now and get something you like. You might lose a bit of money, but at least not 8-10k.

bobbe17 > Tripper 11/06/2019 at 10:06

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That’s my thought as well, but not sure if I should expect much more than the Carmax value for trade in. 16k is about my cutoff for cutting my losses and just being done with it. The other problem is needing to find the right car to trade it in on. Since it’s the fun car, it’s not like I’ll just settle for “a vehicle. ” I guess I’ll just sit on it through the winter and hope something eventually pops up.

bobbe17 > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 11/06/2019 at 10:08

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Unfortunately that does seem to be the best option. Since it’s the fun car and not the daily driver, i t’s just tough because it’d be nice to dump the car without needing to also purchase one.

Tripper > bobbe17 11/06/2019 at 10:10

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Yeah, you’ll definitely make a better deal in the spring. I think that you will get what you need if not more for trade in the spring, and  at the right place. Most places will not let you leave over a few thousand.

CompactLuxuryFan > bobbe17 11/06/2019 at 10:13

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Isn’t somebody trading it in without disclosing exactly how you ended up with this car? Don’t think sticking a borescope into the cylinders is standard inspection for dealers buying at auction. 

BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind > bobbe17 11/06/2019 at 10:19

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Okay. Maybe I’m just used to living life with Subarus and other oil-chomping cars, but...

I’m a bit confused. From your description, the only issue is a bit of oil consumption and some smoky startups? Otherwise the car is fine, no loss of power or change in driving experience? Is the cylinder scoring something that may cause some other type of premature failure, like head gaskets or head warping?

If the only problem is needing to top off the oil every couple hundred miles, I’d be damn happy and keep driving it. Heck, if you’re confident you’re going to take a bath at resale anyway, I’d drive it MORE. 

This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja: > bobbe17 11/06/2019 at 10:22

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You know what needs to be done.

https://engineswapdepot.com/?p=7231

PorkChops > bobbe17 11/06/2019 at 10:49

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Make sure you price this out with selling to Carvana. They are paying high amounts right now to build inventory.

bobbe17 > CompactLuxuryFan 11/06/2019 at 12:18

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For sure that gets into the moral grey zone. The hope is that the dealer catches it before selling or it gets caught in someone’s PPI and the dealer has to make the deal.

bobbe17 > BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind 11/06/2019 at 12:22

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Cylinder 6 will continue to get worse, e ventually cylinder 5 will score, so everything will get worse. The spark plug from cylinder 6 was completely black while the others were ok, so eventual misfires are possible and any damage that comes along with those. The pistons slap against the cylinder walls which removes the iron coating on the pistons, which then leads to metal getting into the oil, which then can lead to other internal damage.

Driving it more is definitely playing with fire, no idea if it’s 1,000 miles or 10,000 miles before the livable issue becomes unlivable.

bobbe17 > This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja: 11/06/2019 at 12:25

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https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2006-porsche-cayman-s-55/

1. Blow up current 3.4

2. Swap in LS 3 for under $12k

3. ???

4. Profit

5.(replace CV joints every couple thousand miles)

slipperysallylikespenguins > bobbe17 11/06/2019 at 12:55

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If there is scoring on only one cylinder you would only need one sleeve. Or you could bore them all out a little bit but that would mean new pistons.

Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle > bobbe17 11/06/2019 at 12:55

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Sorry to hear This happened. I would say get it rebuilt with new cylinder liners. *I think* with good documentation of the rebuild you wouldn’t fully sink the $8k- some people would value your car higher for having the process done(though $8k sounds a little low to me).

You could be like me and swap a 3.2 from the boxster s in; I see those engines are about $4-5k. Haha. If it’s anything like my 996; the 986 S engine was a pretty easy swap. And my car runs great even without a tune.

You could also drive it while you save or plan what you’re going  to do. I’ve read on Porsche forums of people driving with bore scoring for quite some time.

Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney > bobbe17 11/06/2019 at 16:30

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Don’t think you’ll find much in the way of recourse. While bore scoring is a prominent issue on these cars, it’s not a routine part of any PPI and something you generally both must specifically ask for and pay for in addition to standard PPI work. PPIs are not catch-all services and the quality and reliability of one is really only has good as the conversations you have with the inspecting shop/mechanic before the PPI is done and upon delivery of the results of the PPI.

Selling dealer may have known or may not have known; unfortunately a lot of sellers of 996s and 987s will just pump lower viscosity oils in at sale and some of the oiling issues will take time to appear until the oil starts to break down.

Sorry to hear this, though. As an owner of a 996 it’s something that I worry about constantly, even though I took all of the precautions I could when buying the car and bought the best example I could find.

RacinBob > bobbe17 11/06/2019 at 19:11

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What if low tension rings, or loose valve stem seals resulting in the same oil consumption, would you be looking to sell it still?  

You just bought it, enjoy it. Its a bummer that the engine isn’t as perfect as you thought, but hey, you own a Porsche. It runs great, drives great, and smoke a little at start. Oh the horror! This sounds like a first world problem to me!

bobbe17 > RacinBob 11/06/2019 at 19:59

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Well the bore scoring com es from iron material peeling off the positions, which then gets elsewhere in the engine. T he more material lost, the looser the fit in the cylinder , resulting in more piston rocking, resulting in more material lost, and repeat . Also eating up spark plugs, dumping cra p into the catalytic converter causing it to eventually fail, and contaminating the oil with combustion gases leading to faster degradation . The oil consumption is a symptom, not the problem.

RacinBob > bobbe17 11/06/2019 at 21:19

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Having not seen anything like that wear in my years of being around engines, YUK! Looks like you have a Pors che problem. I guess you will have to deal with the ethics of kicking it down the road to somebody else.

Doctor, how many years does it have to live?.....

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > bobbe17 11/06/2019 at 22:23

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Easy.    GT4...

dumpsterfire! > bobbe17 11/07/2019 at 09:33

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side question- do you have a dedicated boroscope? or using one of those cheepie plug into your phone types?

bobbe17 > dumpsterfire! 11/07/2019 at 10:50

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I bought a $40 one off of Amazon that works over WiFi with my phone.  I was pleasantly surprised with the ease of use and image quality.  Battery life isn’t the greatest, although I did have the light on as high as it goes. Also, a little glitchy in that the image would freeze and I’d have to disconnect and reconnect to it to resume.  But overall no complaints for $40.

Grindintosecond > bobbe17 11/07/2019 at 16:31

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Renegade Hybrids specializes in your car...and LS swap kits. Also, Subaru H6's, and coyote fords. Yes it would be a bastard, but a superior fun bastard, as most all those engines are lighter....

Saracen > bobbe17 11/07/2019 at 19:45

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While everyone was losing their minds over mostly non-existent IMS bearing issues, I was primarily worried about bore scoring when I owned my ‘06 997.1, because that is the REAL issue with the M96/M97 engine.

It’s a problem with the lokasil cylinder liners. They’re too soft, and if the engine isn’t warmed up enough before putting a signficant load on it, the thermal differential between the top and bottom of the cylinder can cause cylinder 6 to over time turn into an oval shape, making contact with the sides of the pistons. You probably got the car right as the problem manifested and it wasn’t pronounced until recently. Did the shop that inspected the car scope the cylinders?

Really, the only way to fix this problem long term is to go with LN Engineering’s Nikasil-lined cylinder heads. And while you’re doing that, you might as well punch it out to 3.8 or four liters...I was considering a voluntary 4 liter build with LN Nickies before I decided the 997 wasn’t for me long term.

Of course, such a build is very, very expensive..

Saracen > slipperysallylikespenguins 11/07/2019 at 19:52

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The liners are integrated into the cylinder. It has to be machined out and re-sleeved.

If you’re going to take apart the engine and do this, you’re paying thousands and thousands for labor , so you might as well do it right and resleeve all six cylinders and install new pistons (and bump up displacement a bit).

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > bobbe17 11/07/2019 at 21:05

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Do n’t Carmax and other dealers offer to buy used cars, even if you aren’t trading on getting another?

Darkbrador > bobbe17 11/08/2019 at 10:17

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Ho w about you do it yourself ?

1) Install a lift in your garage . Lifts are getting real cheap these days (at least compared to a new engine or losing $8k when selling the car), and would be a good investment / value added to your garage and future car work capabilities.

2) D rop the engine. Take your time, no hurry, no pressure, it’s your fun car not your daily.

3) G et the piston/cylinder off, take it to a local machine shop, that will certainly cost you hundreds, not thousands

4) W hile you’re at it, refurb/replace everything that could need attention on the engine, giving it a new lease on life and giving you peace of mind.

5) Enjoy the car.

6) Have a cool story / bragging rights at the local pub or C&C

7) Learn tons in the process, grow your mechanics skills

8) Be a better man !

Makes sense ? 

bobbe17 > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 11/10/2019 at 10:57

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Yes but notorious for low balling.

bobbe17 > Darkbrador 11/10/2019 at 10:59

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This was actually a consideration. If I had more space in my garage, I would absolutely be pricing out that route.

RacinBob > bobbe17 11/10/2019 at 12:43

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ugh... http://flat6innovations.com/cylinder-bore-scoring/

superdave847 > bobbe17 11/10/2019 at 15:42

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Yikes. I hope you keep it and fix it, but this totally sucks