Is it or isn't it?

"Future next gen S2000 owner" (future-next-gen-s2000-owner) 10/21/2019 at 11:55 • Filed to: That's not a Buick, Subaru Outback, Outback, food for thought

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Is the Subaru Outback a wagon? The FP says it is. The eyeball test says it has more ground clearance and similar a roof height to many small CUV’s. Those aren’t classified as wagons.

Subaru Outback

LxWxH, 191x73x66

Ground Clearnace, 8.7"

Buick Envision

LxWxH, 184x72x67

Ground Clearance 6.9"

What defines a wagon vs a CUV?

I would argue that a wagon must have the same ground clearance as the sedan on which it is based. Otherwise, it is a CUV.

KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time > Future next gen S2000 owner 10/21/2019 at 12:01

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has a long enough roofline for me to call it a lifted wagon.

BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo > Future next gen S2000 owner 10/21/2019 at 12:01

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This is just a lifted wagon like the Volvo V90 CC and Audi Allroad.

Only much, MUCH more popular.  

Nibby > Future next gen S2000 owner 10/21/2019 at 12:02

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definitely a wagon. and so is the honda veloster STI

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > Future next gen S2000 owner 10/21/2019 at 12:04

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It’s a wagon (lifted).  

Textured Soy Protein > Future next gen S2000 owner 10/21/2019 at 12:05

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It’s a wagon. The body is still a Legacy. The h eight number is including the massive roof rack.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Future next gen S2000 owner 10/21/2019 at 12:06

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It’s a wagon.

This is the definitive answer.

You are welcome. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Future next gen S2000 owner 10/21/2019 at 12:07

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It’s a (tall) wagon.

But there are also a decent number of crossovers that should be classed as wagons as well.

Honestly, I feel like the position of the driver’s legs is informative in the wagon vs. car-based SUV debate.

Ford Flex: wagon

Ford Explorer: SUV

Sovande > Future next gen S2000 owner 10/21/2019 at 12:07

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It’s a giant ugly bulbous thing.  It should be ashamed of itself.

MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) > Future next gen S2000 owner 10/21/2019 at 12:07

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I would argue it’s a wagon, for the reasons below and also because the Forester exists

UnderSTeerEnthusiast - Triumph Fanboy > Future next gen S2000 owner 10/21/2019 at 12:08

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Its not about ground clearance I’d think. If it’s got a D pillar that starts/ extends beyond the rear wheel it’s a wagon. Most hatchbacks/CUV’s will have a D pillar that begins and terminates/near terminates over or at the back of the wheel well.

That being said, an outback is a wagon.

CobraJoe > Future next gen S2000 owner 10/21/2019 at 12:09

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We have an outback, the paperwork all lists it as a Wagon.

It’s pretty obvious riding in one, the floor to roof height is much shorter than most other CUVs.

But, considering it’s a lifted 5 door, I still think it’s a crossover.

It’s just that the lifted wagon is the best version of the crossover, instead of the “Wannabe SUV” style.  

Rainbow > Future next gen S2000 owner 10/21/2019 at 12:10

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My cousin's girlfriend calls her Crosstrek an SUV and it makes me cry.

facw > Future next gen S2000 owner 10/21/2019 at 12:10

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I’d call it a wagon. The proportions seem wagony to me but more importantly it’s heritage as the Legacy wagon means I’m going to think of it as wagon unless they made a really drastic change.  

I just think of it as a wagon with boots on.

For comparison I consider the Impreza hatch a small wagon, The Crosstrek a crossover (this may not be consistent), and the Forester a crossover.

thejustache > Future next gen S2000 owner 10/21/2019 at 12:11

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I don’t think ground clearance gives the full picture. I think it’s the height from the rocker panels to the roof line.

Someone on the FP article mentioned that when it comes to outbacks, they put the line between wagon and CUV between the 3rd and 4rth gen. I’ve owned both a 2nd and 3rd gen outback, my brother-in-law had a 4rth gen, and my parent s have a 5th gen. I personally agree with that idea, despite the fact that my 3rd gen has as much ground clearance as a stock Jeep Cherokee. Park it next to the 4rth gen and up outback (or any other recognized CUV) and the roof line on the newer ones is much higher, without much change in ride height.

That said, I’ll admit to playing things both ways. In NY our tint laws define which windows can be tinted for which kind of vehicles . There is no class for station wagons, but SUV’s are allowed to have pretty much blacked out rear and rear side windows. I have tinted mine and pass every year, so I’d guess they consider it an SUV?

UnderSTeerEnthusiast - Triumph Fanboy > Sovande 10/21/2019 at 12:11

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It also has a 260hp turbo engine and can tow 3500 lbs while having decent handling And tons of storage . Find me another car like that that comes with as many standard features as an outback limited XT under $38k new  and I’ll buy it.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time 10/21/2019 at 12:11

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Yeah, proportions matter. There’s some ratio of floor to roof height vs. total length (around 1:3 or 1: 4? ) over which the wagon moniker no longer fits.

HammerheadFistpunch > Future next gen S2000 owner 10/21/2019 at 12:11

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Its both and anyone who says that crossovers aren’t also wagons or hatches is deluding themselves. Hell the title to my gx and land cruiser both say “wagon”. Wagon is a body style, not guideline on height.

I mean...it’ s called a Jeep WAGONeer.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > facw 10/21/2019 at 12:12

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Specifically, these boots:

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > Rainbow 10/21/2019 at 12:12

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Meh, I called our CX-3 an SUV to “non-car” people

They have no idea what CUV or small crossover means.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > CobraJoe 10/21/2019 at 12:13

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Don’t call it a crossover. Wear the wagon badge with pride!

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 10/21/2019 at 12:15

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CX-3

SUV

LOL

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/21/2019 at 12:21

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I know. trust me.

When it was stolen, people were asking “did your SUV get stolen?” all the time.

Sovande > UnderSTeerEnthusiast - Triumph Fanboy 10/21/2019 at 12:25

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My guess is that you would have to look at something in the CUV/SUV family for that. And since that’s what the Outback is, it would likely be very similar in feel. The Highlander is close but has more towing capacity and more HP for about the same money (tows 5,000 pounds and has 295hp) . It also has better ground clearance.

UnderSTeerEnthusiast - Triumph Fanboy > Sovande 10/21/2019 at 12:31

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I’d argue the outback would be much more car like in handling than a Highlander, considering what it’s based on. It’s just a lifted levorg, more or less. You could give it the wheels/coil over treatment many people are doing in the all road world and it would  Just be a wagon at that point.

vicali > HammerheadFistpunch 10/21/2019 at 12:31

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Outback was wagoning back in 94..

K ids these days..

CobraJoe > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/21/2019 at 12:37

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I love wagons, but the outback is a different beast than the V50 we used to own.

But the outback is a vast improvement over the Edge we used to own too.  

Sovande > UnderSTeerEnthusiast - Triumph Fanboy 10/21/2019 at 12:46

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You can lower an SUV the same way and say the sa me thing, no? I get it, it started as a wagon and has morphed into a big wagon which apes the size and capacity of many regular SUVs (it’s 1.5" shorter than the Highlander, for instance). I don’t know about handling as the only Outback I have driven was the 2012 my mother had (with the 3.6L engine). I thought it was akin to driving a plane t, especially compared to the 1998 Volvo V70 I had at the time.

I’m sure they are nice, and I am sure they meet many folks needs. I wouldn’t own another Subaru though. I had a 1998 Legacy GT wagon and a 2007 Legacy wagon and that’s plenty.

Chuckles > Future next gen S2000 owner 10/21/2019 at 12:49

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It's a wagon but also it doesn't really matter to me. If someone owns an Outback and wants to call it a car, a crossover, or an SUV it's ok.

BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind > Future next gen S2000 owner 10/21/2019 at 12:49

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I was the one that stoked the fire on the FP, so I’ll add my $0.02...

It’s not the ground clearance that matters. The 3rd gen (05-09) OBW has basically the same ground clearance as the current gen, which is basically the same ground clearance as the Forester. 3rd Gen OB was a wagon, 4th+ gen is a CUV, and the Foz has always been a crossover.

It’s about seating position and greenhouse size relative to that seating position. Sitting “down”, car-like, makes it a wagon. Sitting in a more upright position makes it a CUV. Having a straight roof from glass to glass and a near 90* angle at the rear makes a wagon; a rising and then declining roofline along with a steeply raked or even bulbous rear hatch makes a CUV. Wagons have a belt line that is parallel to the ground with a large window in the storage area.

Wagons should have a look to them where they are longer than they are tall; look disproportionately long almost. See: Volvo V70, Caddy CTS wagon.

In a world where the Mercedes GLA is considered a crossover, so is the Outback.

UnderSTeerEnthusiast - Triumph Fanboy > Sovande 10/21/2019 at 12:51

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Im saying it matters in what it’s based on as well. Crossovers not based on a hatch/wagon I’d say are pure crossovers. Crossovers like the cross trek really to me are raised hatchbacks. The cx3 pretty much is a raised hatchback, it was smaller inside than the Mazda 3.

The outback, like the all road, I call a wagon based on the fact they are just their original wagon counterpart on a raised suspension with cladding. More or less an illusion package. The highlander and it’s counterparts were actually built to be a crossover/SUV.

I get what you’re saying, but I see a clear car derivation in the outback that I don’t see in a crossover/suv, even the ones that are supposed to be “car like”, but really aren’t.

atfsgeoff > Future next gen S2000 owner 10/21/2019 at 12:52

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CUV is just a marketing term for tall wagon/hatchback.

Future next gen S2000 owner > HammerheadFistpunch 10/21/2019 at 12:53

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All CUVs /SUVs are wagons but not all wagons are CUVs /SUVs ?

Amoore100 > Future next gen S2000 owner 10/21/2019 at 12:57

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Wagon. Just like how this is one:

Ground clearance does not change body style.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > Future next gen S2000 owner 10/21/2019 at 12:58

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SUVs are just wagon bodies on truck frames. CUVs are wagons with an upright seating position. For me the only difference between CUV and OG wagon is the seating position. Tall and u pright = CUV, low to floor(like any other car) = OG wagon.

HammerheadFistpunch > Future next gen S2000 owner 10/21/2019 at 12:58

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Not all CUV’s are wagons, some are hatches.  The problem with these “what is a ____” arguments stems from the idea that a thing has to fit into only one category.  is it a wagon, or a crossover?  yes.  

Future next gen S2000 owner > BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind 10/21/2019 at 13:02

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The GLA is a monstrosity.

Future next gen S2000 owner > HammerheadFistpunch 10/21/2019 at 13:04

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Human nature I guess. We are predisposed to put things into categories, see faces in things, seek out groups......

Xanadu603 > Future next gen S2000 owner 10/21/2019 at 13:14

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Y eah if you see one next to a CRV etc.. you can see it’s designed to look like a wagon, but it is much taller.

Sovande > UnderSTeerEnthusiast - Triumph Fanboy 10/21/2019 at 13:28

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I didn’t realize the current Outback shared a platform with another car in their line up. Obviously the old models were simply lifted and clad Legacy Wagons. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 10/21/2019 at 13:52

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Haha! This, precisely, shows how broken naming conventions have gotten.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > CobraJoe 10/21/2019 at 13:52

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#WagonLyfe

CompactLuxuryFan > Sovande 10/21/2019 at 13:56

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The Outback actually trumps the Highlander in ground clearance. Subarus in general have pretty good ground clearance and the Outback has more than most SUVs out there.  8.7” vs the Highlander’s shockingly decent 8”. The Crosstrek actually also has the same ground clearance as the Outback. For reference, an Audi Q5 has 8.2”, while a Buick TourX has 5.8”. 

Sovande > CompactLuxuryFan 10/21/2019 at 14:11

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I’m not shocked at all as the Outback is a mod sized SUV similar in size to the Highlander.

My station wagon has a scant 5.4" of ground clearance. 

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > Future next gen S2000 owner 10/21/2019 at 17:06

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My wife did not permit me to consider wagons for our next purchase, but she is okay with the Outback, therefore the Outback is an SUV. As far as I’m concerned, my wife is the final authority!