Confessions of a Service Writer

"Stephen Rivers" (stephenrivers) 10/09/2019 at 09:20 • Filed to: Confessions of a Service Writer, service, dealer, oil, brakes, rotors, deal, bargain, swindle, synthetic, repairs

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1. Yes, the majority of service shops are shady.

I cannot tell you how many times I have had customers come in telling me that “the dealer” or “Shirestone down the road” said that they need 3 engines and a prayer if they’re going to stay on the road safely. However, I’m here to tell you that you should always get a second opinion until you find a shop you feel you can trust.

Many shops make up arbitrary standards about what constitutes a bad tire, low brake pads, and worn out front end parts among other things. That’s why it’s imperative that you get a second opinion and educate yourself about what you are told you need.

The takeaway is this, if a shop tells you that you need a lot of work, they should be capable of showing you exactly what is wrong, what most likely caused it, and why it’s important to mend so immediately.

2. Yes grinding rotors do need to be replaced.

So it sucks I know but the moment you hear (often times feel) that grind (Not squeal), it’s going to cost you. Here’s why. Grinding means the pad is gone and the backing plate is physically grinding into the rotor. Rotors actually have a minimum thickness. More than 93% of the time, any rotor that is grinding has been ground into far enough that it is below minimum thickness according to the manufacturer. Reputable shops will not turn a rotor and reinstall it if it’s below that measurement. Not only is it a liability on their part, it’s unsafe according to the company who made your car. Don’t gamble on brakes friends. It never works out well.

3. Tires determine the car you drive.

Yea, you read that right. The car you drive today changes entirely depending on the tires you’re riding on. I don’t care if you have a Ram with an 8 inch lift and 40 inch tires or an NB Miata with 15s, everything about it’s dynamics can change based on the rubber that meets the road.

You see, expensive tires buy you two things. 1: Wet Traction and 2: Consistent performance. So over the course of the tires life it’ll behave the most similarly between the day you install it and the day you remove it and it’ll handle the wet like it’s bloody dry outside. I can attest to this not only as a salesman but as a consumer. I have Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+s on my car and at highway speeds it simply behaves like it’s summer and smoking hot outside. When it’s actually dry it behaves like I drive a proper sports car despite the fact that my car weighs 4000 lbs.

Much like when it comes to buying a bicycle, buy the best you can possibly afford. You’ll notice the difference.

4. You should never pay more than $50 for an oil change.

Now I’ll provide this caveat to begin. If you drive a car that takes many many quarts read 7 or more then you might pay a bit more. If you drive a car that costs $100k or more, you will pay more. However, if you aren’t included on those first two, you shouldn’t be paying more than $50 US for your oil to be changed.

Surprising to most, the majority of car manufacturers call for conventional oil and of the few who call for synthetic, most call for 0w-20. Many places will tell you that the new fancy 0w-20 synthetic oil is $8-$12 per quart. Their lying. You see, it costs as much as old school dino oil. 5 quarts of that plus filter and labor should get you out the door at $50 or below if they’re being honest.

5. Good shops don’t want to swindle you.  

Good shops won’t sell you things you don’t need unless they’re fun (think lift kits, superchargers, new wheels, etc). Good shops want you to trust them and when given the chance will earn your business by showing you what the problems are and talking to you for as long as you need to feel good about your purchase so don’t feel bad about taking their time or asking questions. We want you to feel like you made the right choice to come to us and to let us be the ones to take the best care of your car.

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > Stephen Rivers 10/18/2019 at 10:20

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Any idea where to find said “good” shop around here?: 

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > Stephen Rivers 10/18/2019 at 10:23

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Any idea where to find a “Good” shop around here?: https://oppositelock.kinja.com/reasons-i-do-all-my-own-work-1830940396

https://oppositelock.kinja.com/this-shit-is-why-1837573235

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > Stephen Rivers 10/18/2019 at 10:24

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A good shop understands that a good customer will stick with them for life. The last dealer we took our Matrix to was fantastic and went above an beyond what I expected. If the Matrix ever has service needs beyond my capability or desire to do they will definitely be getting my business.

Tripper > Stephen Rivers 10/18/2019 at 10:24

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Agree except for #4. Who TF waits until their rotors are GRINDING before replacing them? (I know, a ton of people probably).

I change oil myself and just the parts for my cheapest car are (VW Alltrack) $40. I let the dealer do the first one for $80.

15 02: 5 qts of brad penn a mahle filter and a plug/washer - $55

M3 6qts of 10w60 is $90 plus a filter, plug/washer

Stephen Rivers > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 10/18/2019 at 10:32

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Absolutely. Couldn’t agree more. 

Stephen Rivers > Tripper 10/18/2019 at 10:32

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Way Way Way too many people. You’re right. There are some caveats to that particular confession. 

Stephen Rivers > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness 10/18/2019 at 10:33

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Where is “Here”? Look for reviews online. If 90% of the written reviews are good and seem to be real people and not company employees spamming then you’re likely in good hands.

Kanaric > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness 10/18/2019 at 10:40

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It took me a while to find an honest shop in Las Vegas and even longer to find a competent shop. Where are you at? For me it was yelp reviews, trial and error, and asking the local import scene. 

B_dol > Stephen Rivers 10/18/2019 at 10:52

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The oil, filter and seals needs for an oil change on all my cars is $48-60 in parts alone. I imagine there is a bulk discount on oil but certainly no shop can beat the DIY option.

Recently experienced a shop misdiagnosing an issue outside of their wheelhouse and not fessing up to it, luckily I did not agree to the $1600 in work they wanted to do unnecessarily. It’s a shame because the shop has clout in the community and I will never take my business there again.

Stephen Rivers > B_dol 10/18/2019 at 11:01

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I would agree that if you’re capable and have the time you should do it yourself.

Stephen Rivers > Kanaric 10/18/2019 at 11:02

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X2

Mid Engine > Stephen Rivers 10/18/2019 at 11:07

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Definitely agree with spending money on good tires, however I cannot change the oil on my Cayman for $50. I generally stockpile 0W 40 synthetic when it’s on sale, but regardless it costs closer to $80 to do an oil & filter change.

GoodIdeaAtTheTime > Stephen Rivers 10/18/2019 at 11:16

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From the back of the shop!

1. Get to know the tech/mechanics working on your car, bring them treats like cookies, donuts, beer, etc. You will be treated like Zeus/Aphrodite . * I have a core group o f customers that I invite to cookouts, day events, track days, off road events etc, they also get priority coupons from me, all because they brought cookies, donuts, thanksgiving left overs.

2. When you bring your car in for service, clean it out, my biggest pet peeve. Lately I have been denying any service work until the car get cleaned out. I f I have to get in the trunk or find a squeak/rattle, I WILL charge more if I have to clean it out for you.

4. Don’t complain about prices, we know. I make less than 20% of what the shop charges you an hour. Get to know your tech/mechanic, tip the tech in cash if you want to pay less per shop hour ;) $15 0 in cash to the tech sure beats $1000 to the shop for 5 hours (we have $180 per hour rate) I don’t do this often, just for a select few...... I am so getting written for it later ;)

5. Ladies, t ech/mechanic s like yoga pants as much as you do! We oggle, it happens. Sorry. 

6. Learn about your car, in depth, its easier to pick up on most of the B.S. bein g thrown at you. * side note* I have fun with this one when I bring my car in for warranty work. I don’t look like I know anything about cars , but have been wrenching for 20 years. I’ve heard things that should never be said *shudder*

7. Just maintain the thing. Oil changes alone will not make it last 250,000 miles. And remember you are not the only one on the road, in a poorly maintained car!  

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Stephen Rivers 10/18/2019 at 11:17

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1. Where do you come up with “most”? Maybe you’ve had bad luck working at shady shops, but I would wholeheartedly disagree. Are there a lot? Absolutely. Are there plenty that shouldn’t be doing more than oil changes? Absolutely. But shady in a malicious way meant to get undue money out of the client? No, not in my experience. But I will agree that finding a competent, open (communication-wise) , and trustworthy shop can be extremely difficult. I could elaborate on this for days.

2. Yup.

3. Yes. To a point. There are high end, expensive tires, that will grip like ice in the wet. Conti sport contacts and Michelin sport cups come to mind. Those are made specifically for dry, summer, conditions and will someone’s even make all sorts of crazy noises in protest as soon as temps get below about 45F.

4. No. Unless we’re only, very specifically, talking about cheap econoboxes. Or ignoring overhead and operating at a loss. Which many shops do on oil changes. Not all shops get crazy killer deals on bulk from Big Oil.

5. Absolute fact.

Shift24 > Stephen Rivers 10/18/2019 at 11:34

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Pe rsonal vendetta but I hate the fact that rotor even get turned. I know there is a safety factor and so on but imo rotors are cheap (for the average DD) its better just to slap a new set on.

E ven so if you wanted to save money, maybe you shouldn’t have been driving metal on metal for 3 months...

gmctavish needs more space > Stephen Rivers 10/18/2019 at 11:39

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Man I guess oil is cheaper in the states. Up here, oil and a filter for my car is $65 or $70, so my mechanic charging $90 for the oil change plus suspension lube is not a bad deal. But that is CAD.

benn454 > Tripper 10/18/2019 at 11:46

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 Don't forget that you're also paying the German Tax.

Stephen Rivers > benn454 10/18/2019 at 11:52

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Haha amen

Stephen Rivers > GoodIdeaAtTheTime 10/18/2019 at 11:52

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Awesome Info Here

Stephen Rivers > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 10/18/2019 at 11:54

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Saving for further discussion later. Love the POV though. 

Stephen Rivers > Shift24 10/18/2019 at 11:54

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Neglect is such a sad thing. 

Stephen Rivers > Mid Engine 10/18/2019 at 11:55

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It’s a Cayman though... So caveat for sure. Great car. 

Stephen Rivers > gmctavish needs more space 10/18/2019 at 11:55

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Some Land Rover oil filters we sell for 45 because they cost us 39... so again.. some caveats. 

GoodIdeaAtTheTime > GoodIdeaAtTheTime 10/18/2019 at 11:57

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If you have pets, BRING THEM IN. We love them. You will see a bunch of grown men turn into little kids around a playful pooch. 

dieseldub > Stephen Rivers 10/18/2019 at 12:09

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I might disagree on the oil change cost front. Very largely depends on the car and the oil standards it requires. And if there’s a warranty left, you’ll want to be sure it is an oil that doesnt just claim to meet the manufacturer’s standards but was actually formally approved by the manufacturer. Some dealers and brands will use any excuse they can to deny warranty, and for some types of engines, using the wrong oil with too much of a certain additive can wreak havoc with expensive emissions devices . European cars in particular use expensive oils that even at shop wholesale cost is n ear $10/qt.

I’ve used Michelin Pilot Sport A/S3s... they’re fantastic. The grip they have in the rain is unreal compared to most tires. They’re not the longest lasting tires, though. So if you’re a super commuter, having tires that only go 35k miles isn’t very ideal when you cover more than that in a year. But, if you dont drive such insane miles, a softer compound tire that wears faster isn’t a bad thing, because as you get close to 5 years old, the rubber itself degrades and doesn’t hold the road as well. So, taking a look at how many miles that car will likely be driven in the next 5 years is also a consideration for tire choice. I wouldn’t take the super hard, long-lasting tire if I knew I wasn’t going to cover 60,000 miles or more in that time. I’d opt for something that wears a bit faster but provides better grip like the A/S3s.

One of my customers has a 2013 model year car and he’s got over 290,000 miles on it already. He generally gets Michelin Defenders and managed to get 100,000 miles out of one of his sets of tires. That might only take him 2 years to cover at the rate he drives, though.

Other than that, sometimes you’re best served by going to an independent shop that specializes in the type of car you have. Look for reviews, ask friends who have similar cars, sometimes even forums result in finding the really good, experienced and knowledgeable guys. Though sometimes they’re a 1 or 2 man operation and dont necessarily have the capacity to do same day work without an appointment ahead of time. Too busy for that. But for sure, the small operations where the guy you talk to is also more likely to be the guy turning the wrenches as well certainly helps.

Wi th dealers and bigger shops, having the service writer as the intermediary between customer and technician, sometimes things are lost in translation and I’ve certainly had a couple service writers who were really good at spinning a line of bullshit just to make themselves sound confident because they couldn’t wrap their head around what’s actually going on as told by the technician. Not that they’re being purposefully misleading, they just prioritize sounding confident over being accurate to help make the sale.

The other side of this is that service writers do get incentives and sometimes even quotas for selling more services, and sometimes this leads to them bullshitting to simply make the sale and pad their numbers.

Wen you find a small operation where you're likely speaking to the technician directly, it ends up being a different story, especially if they're busy. If they're busy enough, they have no incentive to sell more. They just are focused on getting done what was already requested of them and moving onto the next one.

Thomas Donohue > Mid Engine 10/18/2019 at 12:15

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Scrolled down to say the same. I change the oil in the Boxster myself, and it’s still $70+ . Nine quarts of Mobil One at a regular shop would likely be twice as much.

Stephen Rivers > dieseldub 10/18/2019 at 12:45

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I feel totally humbled that a comment on this article is probably longer than the article itself.

I can’t agree more about the Michelins. Yes I run though my back tires once a year but my fronts will last a little over 2 years. I drive a bunch and would prefer sure footing over a little less cost every year or two.

Great info on those little details. I’m planning a part two where I dig in a little deeper like that. 

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > Stephen Rivers 10/18/2019 at 13:05

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I’m kinda hard pressed to trust other people’s reviews either, chances they care about their vehicles as much as I do are very slim, as are the chances they actually know what work was done.

Tripper > benn454 10/18/2019 at 13:08

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Only for the oil on the M3, you can’t get it any cheaper. I got a deal on the zinc heavy stuff for the 02 by buying a case (so sub $8/quart), but that is old car/high comp build specific not German specific.  Filters and the other bits and pieces are cheap.

Stephen Rivers > Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness 10/18/2019 at 13:14

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This community for the most part knows their cars considerably better than the rest of the population. That being said I think there’s a lot you can learn from the layman’s experience at any given shop.

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > Stephen Rivers 10/18/2019 at 13:31

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Perspective. https://oppositelock.kinja.com/reasons-i-do-all-my-own-work-1830940396

A lot of the things I listed in there the owner/PO thought the shop was great and did a great job. Mind you most of that was done at places with excellent reviews.

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > Kanaric 10/18/2019 at 13:32

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I’m kinda hard pressed to trust other people’s reviews either, chances they care about their vehicles as much as I do are very slim, as are the chances they actually know what work was done.

Perspective. https://oppositelock.kinja.com/reasons-i-do-all-my-own-work-1830940396

A lot of the things I listed in there the owner/PO thought the shop was great and did a great job. Mind you most of that was done at places with excellent reviews.

His Stigness > Stephen Rivers 10/18/2019 at 14:08

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As a technician I have to disagree with your statement about oil change costs. Thanks to the proliferation of quick screw places in the US, the price of an oil change has been artificially lowered to such ridiculous lows that no one can make money on an oil change anymore.

At my last shop I primarily did smog repairs (I’m a smog inspector and master diagnostician) and I refused to do oil changes at a loss. I had no incentive. Other shops use it as a loss leader in order to sell people on shit they don’t need.

But to illustrate my point I just looked up the labor times on a 2015 Kia Soul. Kia says an oil change labor time is half an hour. So at $95 an hour, an oil filter at $6.58, and figure semi-synthetic oil at $5 a quart, your actual charge to the customer should be around $75. On a Kia. But god forbid you quote anyone that price when they can go down the street and get it done for $20. I work next to a Meineke and they can do an oil change on a car for less than it costs me in supplies. 

Stephen Rivers > His Stigness 10/18/2019 at 14:27

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Long lost Stiggy Family member! Thank you for you comments.

I think that’s in many ways the details I didn’t dive into. We don’t put anything on a car that isn’t needed (unless it’s toys) and we take a loss on oil changes. It is what it is. Customers should take advantage of it.

The quick lube places have indeed scre wed us.

Stephen Rivers > GoodIdeaAtTheTime 10/18/2019 at 14:28

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This is the all-star comment right. Will absolutely be on part 2 with your permission. 

Stephen Rivers > Thomas Donohue 10/18/2019 at 14:29

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I’m in a similar boat. Mine is $60ish. As noted below, shops like mine take a loss on most oil changes. Doing it ourselves can be more expensive

GoodIdeaAtTheTime > Stephen Rivers 10/18/2019 at 15:07

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please do!

i86hotdogs > Shift24 10/18/2019 at 18:05

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From my experience with my own cars, and others I’ve worked on, most rotors are at or near the minimum thickness out of the box. So turning rotors aren’t even an option. Mind you these were all cars/suv’s from 2005 and newer. But that’s the trend I’ve noticed. 

Shift24 > i86hotdogs 10/18/2019 at 20:34

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Agree d , even working at stuff at home it’s maybe 2 more bolts (except for those damn honda set screws...) when replacing pads so might as well.

Some times the pads have dug and gone past that thickness, so you need rotors any way

Jayvincent > Stephen Rivers 10/18/2019 at 20:52

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I’ll back your play, RedStig, despite all the other comments on here:

exhib it 1: receipt for 5qts synthetic 5W30 + filter for $36

Exhibit 2: 10 q ts high mileage full synthetic + 2 filters for $90... minus $28.50 in discounts for a $61.50 + tax . Don’t tell me you don’t bother to check for online discounts...

location wise, this is North Carolina in the US of A, so your local experience may vary.  I’m not buying an exotic blend, but anything from 0W20 to 10W40 from my local auto parts store is in the price range if you are willing to play their game with discounts and coupons and promo deals to get you in the door.

Stephen Rivers > Jayvincent 10/18/2019 at 21:44

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Mi Amigo!!!! 

Stephen Rivers > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 10/28/2019 at 13:46

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Most is based on anecdotal evidence I’ll admit. Dealing with not only my personal experience but far more so from my customers experiences at various shops not only here but in other states. There’s a reason for the stereotype .

I could’ve been less general about this agreed . To the layman I would still argue that it’s correct as most won’t be buying things like Pilot Sport Cup 2s.

Again, as mentioned in the comments many times there are some caveats. A Porsche Cayman, Inline 6 BMWs, etc. However... the vast majority of vehicles can get out the door at a decent place for $50 or less. Those shops are taking a loss most times but that’s not the point.