Question for the group

"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove) 10/04/2019 at 15:18 • Filed to: etiquette and ethics

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I was attending a seminar the other day of an invited speaker (on micro RNAs—cool stuff), and several of our grad students were snapping pics of some of the slides, one or two of the faculty as well.

I was brought up that you absolutely do not take photos or video of someone’s unpublished data without their consent. It’s rude, and it discourages scientific communication. My solution would be to ask the presenter ahead of time if s/he would allow the ppt slides to be saved for anyone interested. If yes, then no one has to take pics while listening. If no, then everyone knows not to take pics for sure. Either way, no more photos in the seminar room.

At least these days almost everyone’s phone is good enough in the dark that there are no distracting flashes, but that’s not really my point.

So what do all of you think? We have different professional fields represented here.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > Chariotoflove 10/04/2019 at 15:26

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eh... in my work its always strictly no pictures (i still think thats more to hide unsafe/illegal working conditions/habbits than secrets but whatever)

but tbh... im a fan of no pics...put the damn phone away stop cheating and pay attention

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 10/04/2019 at 15:27

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Yes.

Nothing > Chariotoflove 10/04/2019 at 15:28

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I don’t take pictures of slides and quite honestly, don’t think anyone should. If it’s allowed to be shared, you can ask for a copy of the presentation. If it’s not allowed to be shared, then obviously nobody should take pictures. It’s rude and disruptive.

I’ve been to several trade shows where the presentation is publicly available, usually distributed prior to the lecture,  and people are sitting there snapping pictures through the entire lecture. Again, it’s disruptive, and two, is your cell phone picture really better than the presentation you can download?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Chariotoflove 10/04/2019 at 15:28

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Someone should ask the presenter.

VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely > Chariotoflove 10/04/2019 at 15:30

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Intellectual Property rights aside, I think it’s tacky and lame, because if they make the slides available later, you don’t need to take dumb blurry photos and stick your hands and devices in other people ’s LOS.

SO here is the thing. I attend at least one technical conference a year. It’s big conferences, like AWS Re:invent, or Percona Live, Cassandra Summit, etc etc etc big IT stuff.

Every session is punctuated by about 200 people all taking photos of random slides. Why isn’t the documentation better available to people so this didn’t necessary? I grind my gears  especially at the people holding tablets up in the air. Yeah, I know you have a 8MP camera in that food tray you call a computer, and the pics still look like shit.

But your point is also valid, we just need a way (like music vendors eventually went online after railing at pirates for decades) to effectively share technical documentation in a granular, secure manner, and these camera shots will go away. 

For Sweden > Chariotoflove 10/04/2019 at 15:31

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Depends. Is this a intelligence briefing with Keyhole satellite images?

bob and john > Chariotoflove 10/04/2019 at 15:33

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maybe its because i’m raised in a different generation (born 95) but unless there is a sign that says no pics, its free game.

lets be real here, its easier for ppl to open the phone to look at a slide for notes then to ask for the presentation, wait a day, get the presentation, and then open the file on a PC or whatever. 

Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen > For Sweden 10/04/2019 at 15:35

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Because if it is,  there’s no need to take photos - Trump will tweet it.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > Chariotoflove 10/04/2019 at 15:36

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Assuming the presenter can just send out the slides afterwards, I agree photos during presentation should be frowned upon. But if there’s no way to get the data out (I can’t see why that would be the case though) then pics are fine if it’s just for the purpose of taking notes. With how good phones are now, you can probably use software to rip the notes out of a photo and turn it into text. Beats having to write it! Still kinda silly I guess though.

I’m used to having no phones at work though in most places and pics being illegal anywhere at work. So any sort of presentation would definitely not be okay to take photos of. 

VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely > bob and john 10/04/2019 at 15:36

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I get the mobile digital preferences just fine (I’m falling into those habits as well) but what do you think about if the slides were available on your mobile device as you listen to the presentation, like a guided art tour?

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > Chariotoflove 10/04/2019 at 15:36

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I dunno. In the commercial field (and particularly patents), the mere showing of the slide is “disclosure”, so I guess I don’t see it as a huge leap to think “if you are disclosing this to me in an open forum, why would I not be allowed to record it for my reference later ? I mean, it’s now ‘disclosed’ right? ”

Obviously, if there’s a specific “No duplication or recording disclaimer” you need to respect that. Or, an “NDA” covering the disclosure and copies/facsimiles.

For me it boils down to “is it rude?” and “is it prohibited”. I’d feel weird taking an image in a small conference room with 5 of us reviewing slides . On the other hand, if it’s a big engineering conference; I’m one of 500 people... I’d be fine taking an image of a slide if it wasn’t expressly prohibited.

YMMV

Jason Spears > VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely 10/04/2019 at 15:37

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I know Splunk puts recordings and slides online after every annual conference. If I miss something in person odds are I can get the full recording a week later.

OTOH, even if slides and recordings aren’t going to be made available, how about just paying attention and parsing the information as it’s presented, and maybe taking notes? Remember notes? You can even take those on a phone or tablet, I hear, and the kids are pretty good screen typists these days. :oldmanyellsatcloud:

Nobody really needs to take photos at presentations. It’s a presentation, not a photo op.

DipodomysDeserti > Chariotoflove 10/04/2019 at 15:40

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I think it takes an incredible lack of common sense and self awareness to start snapping pics during a presentation. My MS and HS students  know better, and will always ask if they can take a photo of a diagram even during lectures

If the presenter wanted you to have copies of slides, you’d have them. If not, bust out a pen and pad and start taking notes.

VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely > Jason Spears 10/04/2019 at 15:41

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I have incredibly bad presentation amnesia, there is some PTSD and other stuff that’s broken in my brain after years of having super amazing recall. I don’t remember shit in a week unless I take specific steps to retain it, like a memorization expert.

I take notes and they help a lot, tis true. But I can’t just sit and listen, there’s just no way. Even a dictaphone or something would help. 

bob and john > VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely 10/04/2019 at 15:48

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chances are, thats goingt o be a seperate app and everything.

Dont get me wrong, if its provided to us, great! But realistically, people are really going to be intrested in a few slides out of many and will take pictures of THOSE in particular.

Hell, even when i had the ppt itself open but I was working on another file, id take a picture of the thing and keep it infront of me on my phone so i could work on the main screen on the other file. 

VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely > bob and john 10/04/2019 at 15:51

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Hell, even when i had the ppt itself open but I was working on another file, id take a picture of the thing and keep it infront of me on my phone so i could work on the main screen on the other file.

If I see someone doing that, I think i’d give them a pass. I see way more people just taking a picture and then just go right back to listening. They don’t even look at the pic until later, unless they’re sharing it on Slack or something

Cash Rewards > Chariotoflove 10/04/2019 at 15:53

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At this at this point, the presenter needs to address that on the title slide. Or even better, a conference wide policy. I wouldn't without asking, but that's the world these days

Chariotoflove > VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely 10/04/2019 at 16:04

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Agreed. I also note that it’s exclusively our foreign students and faculty doing this in our seminars.  It makes me wonder whether it’s a cultural difference.

Chariotoflove > Jason Spears 10/04/2019 at 16:05

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I always did it the old fashioned way.  I created an outline while I was listening.  That way, I organized the information in my brain while also recording the important concepts for later reference.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > Chariotoflove 10/04/2019 at 16:05

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I actually just sat in on a conference call and took screen shots of a few of the slides to share with my boss and team. It’s definitely frowned upon – absolutely a no-no if it’s going outside the company, but in this case it’s all internal and is being shared only within our small group, so in situations like that people tend to do a “not supposed to circulate this, so just keep it to yourself” disclaimer just to keep things moving along.

But in your field where researchers are sharing current status on unpublished studies, etc. – that sounds like a huge faux pas.

Chariotoflove > bob and john 10/04/2019 at 16:09

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There is the issue of presenting unpublished data. There are plenty of seminars (a Gordon Conference is an example) where people present their preliminary data to stimulate discussion with their peers, but don’t want viewers copying their actual data. It’s not just a convenience issue, it’s an ethical issue.

Chariotoflove > For Sweden 10/04/2019 at 16:09

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Maybe...If I tell you I’d have to kill you.

MrDakka > Chariotoflove 10/04/2019 at 16:10

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At my former place of employment y ou had t o surrender your phones at the entrance before entering the actual premises

For Sweden > Chariotoflove 10/04/2019 at 16:11

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finally

Chariotoflove > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 10/04/2019 at 16:15

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There’s an issue of ethics though.  Often lecturers present some of their unpublished data to stimulate conversation at the conference.  If you take notes, you write down the gist to remind you later.  Taking pics though, can disseminate the actual data, and that’s not cool as a general practice, because, if an investigator who is still working on something and isn’t ready to publish yet knows that unknown people in the audience are recording his data, he will be inhibited from sharing the new stuff. Before long, people aren’t sharing anything anymore, and discussion is inhibited.

Chariotoflove > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 10/04/2019 at 16:15

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In a close group meeting like that, sure.  But then, I usually just ask the speaker to shoot me the ppt after.

Chariotoflove > Cash Rewards 10/04/2019 at 16:16

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Agreed.  I thought it was understood, like proper table manners.  But then those have largely gone by the wayside too.

Chariotoflove > MrDakka 10/04/2019 at 16:17

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That’s tight.  When you work somewhere where they are discussing stuff that’s IP, it becomes necessary. Once it’s on a phone, it could be anywhere.

Chariotoflove > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 10/04/2019 at 16:23

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The idea in academic science is that you share your unpublished data sometimes to generate discussion with the community there. Good old fashioned note taking is allowed because it’s recording the gist of the talk for your brain, the concepts. Taking photos records the actual data. People in competitive fields have had their work recorded, repeated by a competitor, and scooped to publication later. It’s not epidemic, but it happens.

So, when you go to give a talk at a meeting, can you know who in the audience is ethical and who isn’t? No. So, you end up playing it safe and just not showing your new stuff until it’s almost in press. Soon, everyone is likewise  inhibited, and conversation is squelched. The answer to avoiding this is just don’t do it. Ask the lecturer for his slides.  He’ll shoot you an email.  Easy peasy. Unless he doesn’t want the data out, in which case, you should have recorded it anyway.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > Chariotoflove 10/04/2019 at 16:26

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Here at a public research university, I’ve seen it done. The reality here is that outside of some DoD/DHS related projects , medical records/ certain HR s tuff and FERPA related student records  there is exceedingly little work product around here that isn’t a discoverable public record in the first place.

Chariotoflove > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 10/04/2019 at 16:29

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It becomes public record once published.  But original research is generally more closely guarded, at least in my field.

bob and john > Chariotoflove 10/04/2019 at 16:38

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thats a f ai r point, but then put up the sign: no photos please.

you run into the question of: if its unplublished, is not putting it into the presentation publishing it? if its an open convention, ehh.

its a private/invite only thing, I get that. 

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > Chariotoflove 10/04/2019 at 16:39

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The call had over 100 people on it, but yeah I basically did it under the assumption that they wouldn’t mind given that it’s all internal company data. 

nermal > Chariotoflove 10/04/2019 at 16:45

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It depends entirely on context. If it’s something meant to be shared, the presenter can either print out, email, or post for download a copy of the PPT . If it’s something secretive, either everybody is cleared ahead of time or the audience is not permitted to bring cameras .

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Chariotoflove 10/04/2019 at 16:46

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Well I’d say it’s definitely a faux pas.

Now having said that, if it’s something that is truly secret, then the researcher shouldn’t be sharing the info with just a bunch of grad students who probably haven’t singed a non-disclosure agreement.

If you show them publicly or quasi-publicly, don’t be surprised if someone takes pictures.

Now the only question I have is... is it a bigger faux pas to take pictures of a presentation like this (with no signed non-disclosure beforehand) compared to showing up to the seminar without wearing pants?

Chariotoflove > bob and john 10/04/2019 at 16:52

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Well there is a difference. The people see it, and even take notes, they get the concepts and can talk about it, but when it’s recorded, it’s easier to copy experiments and even scoop someone. It’s happened.

I plan to talk to our department about this for the future, because a speaker may or may not be coming in with an expectation, and I would hate to have him surprised once he’s on the podium.

Chariotoflove > nermal 10/04/2019 at 16:53

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Well, it’s not really practical most times to frisk people for phones at the door, but it should be stated out right.  I’m going to see if we can announce a policy for invited talks in the future that the organizer will ask for the ppt and make it available if the speaker is willing.

bob and john > Chariotoflove 10/04/2019 at 16:56

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i 100% agree that the presenter and host area should have this discussed.

like I said....maybe its because i was raised in a different generation, but unless there is a sign that says: no, no photos....its a free game to me *shrugs*

Chariotoflove > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 10/04/2019 at 16:57

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Oh I’ve been to plenty where the speaker is wearing a skirt, so no problem there.

facw > Chariotoflove 10/04/2019 at 17:07

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This outside of situations I encounter but my feeling is that:

No you shouldn’t take pictures

But also:

No you shouldn’t book speakers who aren’t willing to distribute their slides

And also:
If your stuff isn’t ready to be published, you probably shouldn’t be presenting it to a large group either

Edit: Also, if you don’t want your stuff photographed say that. I think it’s a bit rude because it’s disruptive, but frankly I don’t think it’s much different than taking notes besides that. 

VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely > Chariotoflove 10/04/2019 at 17:11

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That’s an interesting question that I can’t answer. I mean mobile tech is way more prevalent now, and markets like Asia are way more heavily geared to lighter, smaller tech. So it could be a cultural difference. Not that anyone needs an excuse anywhere to take a photo, seems to just happen 

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Chariotoflove 10/04/2019 at 17:20

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Chariotoflove > facw 10/04/2019 at 17:37

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Taking notes preserves the concept in one’s mind for discussion purposes. Of course, a speaker’s original ideas can be scooped that way as well. But pics record the actual raw data, and that’s not something you want distributed indiscriminately before you’re ready. It’s kinda analogous to car companies showing teasers and camouflaged photos of their cars before release to stimulate interest. But they don’t want the entire thing released before their car is ready.

Gordon Research Conferences, for example, are an explicit example. They are intended to encourage people talk about their cutting edge new stuff while removing the inhibitory fear of being scooped. They put in their policies:

To encourage open communication, each member of a conference agrees that any information presented at a Gordon Research Conference or Gordon Research Seminar, whether in a formal talk, poster session, or discussion, is a private communication from the individual making the contribution and is presented with the restriction that such information is not for public use. Prior to quoting or publishing any such information presented at a conference in any publication, written or electronic, written approval of the contributing member must first be obtained. The audio or video recording of lectures by any means, the photography of slide or poster material, and printed or electronic quotes from papers, presentations and discussion at a conference without written consent of the contributing member is prohibited. Scientific publications are not to be prepared as emanating from the conferences. Authors are requested to omit references to the conferences in any publication, written or electronic. These restrictions apply to each member of a conference and are intended to cover social networks, blogs, tweets or any other publication, distribution, communication or sharing of information presented or discussed at the conference.

Chariotoflove > VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely 10/04/2019 at 17:40

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Well it’s certainly easier to do it quietly nowadays without flash being necessary. In the old days, you had to point your camera, and everyone got to see your flash.  That’s gone now, and people may think it’s not disruptive anymore.

facw > Chariotoflove 10/04/2019 at 17:42

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Well I think those teasers and camo’d cars are dumb too. And I would think the photos would just be a faster way of taking notes, and one that lets the attendee focus more on what is being said. In any event, as I said, I don’;t think it’s great, but I think if you don’t want it, you should specifically request that.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > Chariotoflove 10/04/2019 at 17:46

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Interesting clarification.  Thanks!

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > For Sweden 10/04/2019 at 17:47

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I dunno, in our TS/SCI Special Forces Ops briefings there was always likely to be grifter or two.

https://jalopnik.com/brain-genius-elon-musk-got-rolled-by-worlds-most-obviou-1838753289

Chariotoflove > facw 10/04/2019 at 17:58

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The problem I see—and is illustrated on this thread—is that what is taken for granted as proper etiquette by some is not for others. I think it needs to be stated out loud so that my speaker isn’t surprised and offended if he all of a sudden sees a sea of phones pointed at him and didn’t approve that. I don’t want ambiguity to spoil our seminar series. I’m going to talk to the Chair about an explicit policy.

Also, agree camouflaged cars are dumb, and I think spy photos are usually faked.

Chariotoflove > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 10/04/2019 at 18:01

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I’m learning that it’s a little  different for different fields, which is what I suspected and why I started this thread.

DipodomysDeserti > Chariotoflove 10/04/2019 at 18:13

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I will add that miRNA and siRNA are really fascinating to learn about. In my toxicology class I’ve been discussing the role of epigenetics in regards to toxicity. It’s pretty crazy how little we know about a lot of these processes.

VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely > Chariotoflove 10/04/2019 at 18:22

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I recall handling film very gingerly. Although consistency in maintaining vibrate only and disabling auto flash is a little hit and miss in big audiences, I’ve found 

Chariotoflove > DipodomysDeserti 10/04/2019 at 19:03

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I like to think of epigenetics as Lamarck’s Revenge. :)

siRNA and miRNAs are starting to move toward actual clinical trials now.

DipodomysDeserti > Chariotoflove 10/04/2019 at 22:35

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It really is. I used to teach both freshmen biology and AP Bio. The freshmen were not ready to learn about gene regulation and epigenetics. T hey’d get to AP Bio and look at me like I lied to them when we’d cover this stuff. I did it on purpose to help them realize that science and knowledge are always evolving and to help keep them from becoming stagnant thinkers.

It’s pretty crazy how much we’ve learned in the last ten years. It’s calling into question a lot of what we thought we knew about the body’s response to toxins.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Chariotoflove 10/04/2019 at 23:03

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I work in engineering, if there is no NDA, its fair game. a bit rude maybe.

In college I had a biology professor with zero pacing skills. Would go off on these random tangents and youd be sitting there thinking “wtf does this have to do with ribosomes....is this going to be on the test?!?!?” Then she’d blitz through the rest of the side deck to get where she should have been if on pace.

So one kid got smart and set a dslr on his desk and would snap a photo while taking notes . Did this most of the symester, she happened to be strolling up the isle ( giant 200+ lecture hall) sees it and flips out as if he had his textbook open in the middle of test. And going oh she was going to report him. To who and for what I have no idea

Chariotoflove > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 10/05/2019 at 00:28

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I had an archeology professor who got upset when I brought a tape recorder to his class. He told me that sometimes professors might want to put their material into a text book or otherwise publish it for profit, so you have to ask permission to record it.

He then gave me permission. He just wanted to make sure I understood. 

Jayvincent > Chariotoflove 10/06/2019 at 16:29

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Frisking people at the door is ABSOLUTELY the rule for US defense (gov’t and/or industry) conferences. You will be leav ing your recording devices outside the conference room or you will be removed and put on a list / not that I speak from personal experience...

Jayvincent > Chariotoflove 10/06/2019 at 16:42

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I - think - I read all the replies before posting, but my industry frequently ha s conferences where you present original research where the publication rights go to the hosting agency and they publish (and sell) the conference proceedings. They really frown on recording of any kind si nce it infringes on their right to publish. I’ve ne ver seen someone dragged from the room, but I have seen people shamed by the session chair for vio lating the rules and there’s always some foreign nationality “stud en ts” who pretend not to understand the rules and brazenly take pictures of every slide even the meaning less ones like the “title” an d “than k you - any questions?” slide.

In reality, I expect my competitors and foreign agents (hard to tell them apart in the modern international industrial business world ) will be in the audience and I only present things I am willing to let them see. I will email copies of my presentation to anyone who asks and is not a direct competitor and i tell them as much on my title slide. Some people just can’t be professionals unfortunately. 

Chariotoflove > Jayvincent 10/07/2019 at 13:44

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I think that sounds absolutely appropriate in that situation. At an academic conference, people wouldn’t tolerate bodily searches. You’d just drive people away and your conference would die from irrelevance.

Chariotoflove > Jayvincent 10/07/2019 at 13:49

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I have seen all of these things you describe. And yes, large meetings publish proceedings in their affiliated journals that you can then cite in further work. That can be used, in a sense, to “mark your territory” and warn people off. It also can be used to draw in possible collaborators who are thinking in your direction, in which case, those people should talk to you afterward, not take low- res pics of your slides.

But yes, it’s like the internet rule. I f you really don’t want it out there, don’t show it.