My Unnatural Hatred of Tesla

"Joe6pack" (joe6pack) 09/23/2018 at 11:00 • Filed to: None

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I’m going to put this out there. I absolutely hate Tesla. It’s not so much the product as the cult-like owners and the company itself.

I ’ve been driving electric (LEAF) since 2012 and I spend more time on EV sites than anything else. Tesla adherents would have you believe that Tesla is the only company doing anything to further the EV revolution and that for that matter, they are the only company capable. All the while, their products are maddeningly expensive and carry around far more battery capacity than is necessary (spare me the corner cases). How is that environmentally sound?

And (tin foil hat on), I firmly believe that many of the more prominent EV sites are either owned by or unduly influenced by Tesla. Thus articles are unfairly biased toward Tesla. In fact, at least one site has already been exposed (Electrek) and another is under heavy suspicion (Insideevs). I also believe that they use underhanded tactics such as using anonymous posters to undermine competing products on these supposedly independent websites in the comments section (say, did you hear the LEAF suffers from battery degradation and the Bolt has terrible seats). This is where many people begin their EV information searches. They even use these tactics on sites dedicated to specific competitors such as mynissanleaf.com. Seriously, several of the mods over there are Tesla owners who actually despise the LEAF. They’ve admitted as much.

I don’t have anything against Tesla’s products as by most accounts they are decent enough (I have a friend with an X). But I do think the company itself is morally bankrupt. Some will argue that this is just capitalism in the 21st century. That doesn’t mean I have to like it.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Joe6pack 09/23/2018 at 11:04

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Would you like them if they came with shark faces?

syaieya > Joe6pack 09/23/2018 at 11:09

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Tesla reminds me quite a bit of 21st century apple. They would much rather you prescribe to their ecosystem. And while i respect some of their designs, other things i highly question. My coworker bought one tesla stock and it has been a roller coaster of updates.

Tangent note, how is that leaf treating you? My girlfriend will need a car after being sol ely a city bicyclist for many years. Ive not got much knowledge on the leaf but it checks the short nosed, cute look shes aiming for. Ive only sat in one and i remember the seats being suprisingly plush.

WilliamsSW > Joe6pack 09/23/2018 at 11:12

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I would agree with all of that, though I’m not on any forums, so I won’t weigh in on that part.

Companies in general are amoral though. Some are just worse then others, and Elon has shown himself to be an ass, as it turns out.

But it’s the Tesla fanboi owners that will keep me from ever owning a Tesla. I already own a BMW and the stereotype of those people is bad enough...

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Joe6pack 09/23/2018 at 11:33

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https://oppositelock.kinja.com/my-unnatural-love-of-tesla-1829254824?rev=1537716731269  

Hee hee hee... 

Spanfeller is a twat > Joe6pack 09/23/2018 at 11:33

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Why do you think they have too much range? 

Joe6pack > Spanfeller is a twat 09/23/2018 at 11:41

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Most people only commute 40 or 50 miles per day. Therefore much of the battery goes unused. It also makes the car much heavier thus hurting efficiency. Basically, it’s waste.

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > Joe6pack 09/23/2018 at 12:06

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I get that that's inefficient, but most cars period don't go more than 50 miles a day. Should they have two gallon gas tanks?

DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 09/23/2018 at 12:11

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Larger gas tanks aren’t nearly as expensive as larger batteries though. Not to mention the idea with EVs is that you can recharge them at home and not have to go to a gas station. 

bhtooefr > Joe6pack 09/23/2018 at 12:41

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The extra battery capacity gets you a few things, though.

It gets you more range for when you really do need it. Sure, that’s not that often, but it’s often enough that people won’t buy shorter range EVs that do meet their needs. Basically, it’s not a “24 kWh or 80 kWh” question, it’s a “gasoline engine or 80 kWh” question.

It means that the C rate can be lower for the same power, or the power can be higher for the same C rate. This gives Tesla more options to balance capacity vs. power when selecting their cell construction and chemistry, without sacrificing performance and charging speed. Also, because of that, t here’s less weight gain than you’d think. An extreme example is... the 18.4 kWh pack in the current Volt is 432 lbs, the 80.5 kWh pack in the Model 3 Long Range is 1,054 lbs (and AFAIK the Volt’s charger and DC/DC converter are not included in that figure , whereas the Model 3's are).

That also translates more directly into... you can charge a Model 3 at 120 kW up to 60% , which means that when you do exhaust the battery doing long range stuff, you get range back faster, despite a lower C rate than the short range EVs. And, regenerative braking can be more powerful for the same C rate, recovering some of the energy lost from the added mass.

And then, there’s the whole thing where Li-ion batteries cycled within a narrower range of state of charge have more longevity. Charging to 100% isn’t great for them, discharging to 0% isn’t great for them... if you’re basically staying between 50 and 80% in your everyday driving, that’s going to get you a hell of a lot more longevity, and spread the environmental impact of producing a larger pack over more years and miles. (Note that Tesla isn’t the only automaker to figure this out, but short-range EVs can’t afford to go gently on their batteries, because they have to fight range anxiety in their marketing. PHEVs, OTOH, have the engine to prevent range anxiety , and therefore can afford to be gentle to their batteries (but have to use high-power, low-energy chemistries).)

That leaves efficiency. Yes, a big battery is less efficient. But, it’s a few percent at most that’s left on the table by running a big battery (the Model S gets 326 Wh/mi EPA with a 75 kWh battery, 332 Wh/mi EPA with a 100 kWh battery, for a grand total of 1.77% more energy used hauling around a full 1/3 more battery), so eh, really not a huge deal at all.

bhtooefr > Joe6pack 09/23/2018 at 12:45

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I think there’s a lot of companies capable of furthering the EV revolution, I just feel that their risk-averse shareholders refuse to let them. Hence mediocre projects like the I-Pace and EQC, because they’re trying to sell to the EV market, not the car market.

There’s one exception to that - Volkswagen - and that’s because they’re mandated to roll out the infrastructure necessary as part of their Dieselgate settlement, and they’ve openly said that they can’t adapt an ICE platform, they have to make an EV-specific platform. However, they’ve said nothing about maintaining the charging network that they’re deploying under Electrify America, and it definitely has a billing structure that’s part of the... legacy automaker EV charging service company structure (because it’s run by those companies).

(Also, I’m not a Tesla owner, although I am a TSLA owner. If the Model 3 were a liftback, I probably would jump on one, but it’s not, so I’m sticking with my Prius and in wait and see mode. I just see nothing else on the horizon yet that’s as well-supported as a competitor to ICE.. .)

Spanfeller is a twat > Joe6pack 09/23/2018 at 12:48

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Okay, that makes sense... but there you see the large issue with EVs and that’s the charging capabilities. EVs are slow to charge and chargers are a pain in the ass to find . When I go to a gas station I know I’m always getting petrol at the same speed, all the time, its not significantly limited by the nozzle on the pump or by my gas tank either.

I know this is a matter of time and organization, but Tesla is about to empty it’s federal grant and we’re yet to see a large, organized effort to make fast, easily accesible, plentiful chargers for all EVs. Those do need to be public, a shit ton of people can’t just afford to stick a high power charger at their homes (or can’t because they live in an apartment or street park ).

I was considering getting a Chevrolet Bolt, but then again, range can be an issue if, in the back of your mind, you know that the goddamn car takes nine hours to charge, nine! If the Chevy Bolt had 10 0 miles of range but you could charge up in five minutes only idiots small niche of consumers would be complaining about range IMHO. I can install a charger at home, but then I remember that in my country the only fast public chargers available belong to, you guessed it, Tesla! The government of Mexico City made available like, ten public charging stations but they don’t really give them maintenance.

This is why I think EVs are a waste of time. In reality I think the best way to go is with hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.

fintail > Joe6pack 09/23/2018 at 12:58

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I can admire the company for some innovation. But I generally dislike it too, for some similar reasons.

The cult-like owners and arrogant nutcase CEO are a big part of it. Around Seattle, these are a magnet for every dull techbro and luckyboomer who now thinks they are edgy. These are Prius people with more money. Not a fan of tax breaks for pricey toy cars of the affluent either, but I guess that’s a state and fed issue.  The X also now appears to be in the starter pack for the significant others of the residency purchasing “investor” demographic, so watch out.

The design is boring, themes on an elongated egg, and the interiors don’t match the price point. Fine, one can say you are buying a cool powertrain and getting the rest for free, but don’t try to tell me it is a luxury product with those materials and build quality. No.

Range - I’d want more. I take numerous road trips every year, and I don’t want to stop for an hour in some boring area numerous times on the trip. When I can go to Spokane for under a third of a tank of my current car (MB Bluetec), it’s hard for me to want an EV. Also, my building has no charging infrastructure, and my workplace has little. More range would mean less need to charge.

Spoon II > Joe6pack 09/23/2018 at 13:06

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You also have to take into account that car companies want mass appeal. The average consumer is not  very knowledgeable about average commutes and whatnot, they’re just after peace of mind. That’s why you hear about “Range Anxiety” constantly in the news. The longer the available range, the larger the potential customer base, resulting in the max range race between electric car manufacturers.

Joe6pack > Spanfeller is a twat 09/23/2018 at 13:33

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This post isn’t really a debate about the pros and cons of EVs. It was more of a criticism of Tesla as a company.

Joe6pack > bhtooefr 09/23/2018 at 13:45

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What you say is true, but it’s also true of the Bolt and will be true of the new longer range LEAF, Kia, etc . That’s not the point.

The main point of the post is that I believe Tesla undermines competition through deception.

Joe6pack > syaieya 09/23/2018 at 13:53

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I love the LEAF and feel it has been unfairly maligned. Yes, there were battery degradation issues in the early cars, but things seem much better. BTW, it’s easier to hide degradation with a larger battery (Tesla). The LEAF has been rock solid and reliable. It has got to be one of the easiest cars ever to drive. Honestly , as a city car, the LEAF may be a bit late large. If you don’t have kids, you might look at a Fiat 500e. But I do highly recommend the LEAF.

M.T. Blake > Joe6pack 09/23/2018 at 15:18

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It’s not unnatural at all. Naturally someone has to hate them. They’re making excellent cars for people with too much money and a smug attitude  (Read: Wankers).

dogisbadob > Joe6pack 09/23/2018 at 15:58

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I’m no fan of Tesla or Elon Musk, but I do like the no dealer sales model. The build quality is on par with British Leyland, and plenty of other shit against them.

But still, you have to admit that Tesla actually made real car companies take the segment seriously. Remember what GM did to the EV1? And you KNOW they still want to CRUSH every S10 EV still on the roads.

The best way forward seems to be “mostly electric” cars like the Volt and i3. Primarily electric, but they have an engine to cut down on range anxiety and to also keep the battery charged at optimal levels.

I just wish the Volt and Leaf were available with a sunroof!

syaieya > Joe6pack 09/23/2018 at 16:13

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Well city car isnt as required as shes only looking carward with her leaving the city.

She likes the looks of the 500e outside but isnt a fan inside.

An d at that, electric isnt a requirement. But for her needs it may end up being a solid consideration over something like a mazda 3

higgsboson666 > Joe6pack 09/23/2018 at 17:08

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For you, it’s a waste. For a lot of people, city driving isn’t enough range , nor usual. If you wanted to drive for a simple road-trip, you’d need to rent a car.

Joe6pack > syaieya 09/23/2018 at 17:51

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Gotcha. I incorrectly assumed that since a bike worked previously , she was or would remain in a city. The LEAF is definitely much nicer inside.

Chariotoflove > Joe6pack 09/23/2018 at 19:19

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I would love to have an EV for tooling around town. Forget road tripping, which is what most people cite when talking about range anxiety. I frequently enough have to drive across the city or up to Addison or Plano during a work day. 40 or 50 miles wouldn’t get me out and back home on days like that. So, I would appreciate extra range for that intermediate use.

Not saying Tesla is great because of their huge batteries, just bringing up an important point about EVs.  I happen to think that Elon Musk, and the culture he built up around Tesla when he hijacked the company from its founders is reprehensible in many ways and actually hurts the EV in many ways.

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > Joe6pack 09/23/2018 at 19:31

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It is far from the only automotive company or consumer electronics company to adopt this approach. In fact, I would go as far to say that they all do in some shape or form.

Tesla as a company a re no better or worse or even different than any other multinational who rely on consumerism for income. Their greatest weakness (as a car company and, to an extent, as a battery company - which is actually their  primary focus) however is their over reliance on hype, bullshit, their fan base and Elon Musk as part of their sales strategy.

chiefbroski > Joe6pack 09/23/2018 at 20:44

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Sounds like someone is jealous because they have a slower, lower range, less premium Nissan Leaf. Try not t o get too mad because you can’t afford one. I can’t afford one either.

Its a luxury car that comes with luxury price. You have to make a luxury car to get the margins necessary to scale up.

Sure, t he c ompany has lots of fanboys because it pushed EVs into the mainstream so it can compete with ICE cars and forces lazy ass companies to act. And then there are the haters who hate on the emotional attachment that fanboys and the media have to a company that uses this attachment to barely stay solvent for the greater good of our world. The EV landscape would have been trash and niche if it wasn’t for Tesla.  Nissan does not deserve the same level of commendation as Tesla. 

Stef Schrader > Joe6pack 09/23/2018 at 23:00

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TBH, that top photoshop actually makes that butt-awful new front end on the Teslas look all right.

Teslas are like the Miata of the EV world. The car is fine! But my goodness, the fanboiz are THE WORST.