Get your popcorn out...

"WilliamsSW" (williamssw) 09/20/2018 at 15:50 • Filed to: The Judges have spoken, Bring A Trailer

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This auction on BaT is going off the rails FAST - $50 says it gets pulled, and it’s only been up a few hours.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Listed as a ‘69 GTO Judge, and the commentariat quickly figured out that it ain’t no Judge.  The word ‘fraud’ is being tossed around...

For Sweden > WilliamsSW 09/20/2018 at 15:54

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If only there was an impartial party who could adjudicate this case

lone_liberal > For Sweden 09/20/2018 at 15:58

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If only I could star this more than once. 

vondon302 > WilliamsSW 09/20/2018 at 15:59

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From the comment section on bat.

All this Vette-ing this GTO is getting here. Will it be considered a Real JUDGE? Now a woman has come forward alleging that in high school this Goat goosed the pedal to the metal pinning her to the seat and put the top down! blowing wind in her hair.They will butt heads under oath. Here come the Judge , Here Come The Judge

Lol

DipodomysDeserti > WilliamsSW 09/20/2018 at 16:02

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I guess the jury is still out...on this judge. [dawns  sunglasses] *Ahhhhhhhoooooowwwwwww!

WilliamsSW > vondon302 09/20/2018 at 16:03

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Ha - yeah that was a good one.  Like one of those “CSI-SVU” shows that’s ‘ripped from the headlines’!

The comments may seem pedantic to some, but the difference in price between a GTO and a real Judge is a heck of a lot of money.

Stuff like this is what makes BaT so entertaining to me.

DipodomysDeserti > For Sweden 09/20/2018 at 16:04

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WilliamsSW > DipodomysDeserti 09/20/2018 at 16:06

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Not that impartial guy, this one

vondon302 > WilliamsSW 09/20/2018 at 16:07

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For sure. I remember the Mopar from last year.

For Sweden > WilliamsSW 09/20/2018 at 16:07

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But they serve on the same court.  If you see one, you will see the other.

WilliamsSW > For Sweden 09/20/2018 at 16:10

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But I want this one

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > WilliamsSW 09/20/2018 at 16:13

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Looks like the ad was revised, since it currently reads:

“This 1969 Pontiac GTO convertible has been refinished as a Judge tribute in orange over black vinyl . . .”

And the title now is, “1969 Pontiac GTO Convertible 400 4-Speed.”

DipodomysDeserti > WilliamsSW 09/20/2018 at 16:13

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WilliamsSW > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com 09/20/2018 at 16:15

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I’m about to refresh, but here’s the language before I do that:

This 1969 Pontiac GTO Judge convertible has been refinished in orange over black vinyl and is powered by a replacement 400ci V8 paired with a 4-speed manual transmission. The car was acquired by the seller in 2016, with subsequent maintenance including fluid changes and suspension lubrication. This GTO is offered with partial historical documentation and a clean California title in the seller’s name.

WilliamsSW > DipodomysDeserti 09/20/2018 at 16:20

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MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > WilliamsSW 09/20/2018 at 16:23

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Also according to the seller they were clear with BaT that it was not a true Judge

Wow. Ok I told Bat it was a clone or replica. That’s how I bought it. From my understanding, since the car was bought out of state, it required a CHP inspection. The VIN on the rear frame was unreadable so they reassigned the VIN. The cars original VIN is still available from both CHP and my documents. Sorry I thought all those issues were addressed when I sent the information to Bat.

Nom De Plume > WilliamsSW 09/20/2018 at 16:24

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!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Looks like cooler heads prevailed.

WilliamsSW > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 09/20/2018 at 16:27

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Yeah - he kinda got screwed by BaT’s copywriter there, I suppose. But I *thought* that the sellers reviewed copy before the auction went live?

At any rate, this was caught early on day 1, so the auction should go smoothly from here.

I just asked him more about that 400 (repeating an earlier question), if it’s a decent engine in there, the car could bring some pretty good money (not the 6 figures ++ that a true Judge ‘vert would bring).

WilliamsSW > Nom De Plume 09/20/2018 at 16:33

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Yes, and the seller says that they told BaT it was a clone all along - which I tend to believe, because they wouldn’t have included the documentation if they were trying to scam people.

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > WilliamsSW 09/20/2018 at 17:47

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“Bring a Trailer” and “total shitshow” are synonymous, you know.

aquila121 > WilliamsSW 09/20/2018 at 18:12

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The Snowman > WilliamsSW 09/20/2018 at 18:57

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WilliamsSW > The Snowman 09/20/2018 at 21:25

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Kinja'd

WilliamsSW > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 09/20/2018 at 21:27

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No more so than anyone else selling old, theoretically valuable cars.

The auction houses are a shitshow too, and I’ve visited a few places selling old muscle cars.

Caveat emptor.

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > WilliamsSW 09/20/2018 at 21:56

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Nah. The auction houses won’t throw a rotted out carcass of a mass-produced malaise-mobile up on the block. They have some  standards.

WilliamsSW > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 09/20/2018 at 22:06

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I’ve seen cars with rear quarters that were 2 inches thick with bondo at Mecum.

Plenty of horror stories out there about people buying “ numbers matching” cars that were faked, and they just pointed at their terms and conditions and said “ sorry” .

It’s really easy to get screwed buying old cars if you’re impulsive or don’t do your homework. 

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > WilliamsSW 09/21/2018 at 12:12

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Oh yeah, at the side gigs, anything goes and then some. And they’ve got no problem with faked numbers matching, if that fakery gets past vetting. But when you talk about the main stage, big show stuff? They’re usually a lot more careful. Last thing they want is someone with money being pissed off at them, because money = speech.

Still, absolutely true - very easy to get screwed buying old cars if you just rush in. Even not rushing in, easy to get screwed by a skilled con artist. I used to know a guy who restored Mopar muscle cars - the big money ones. Had his own personal collection too.

When he tried to register one of them, the state said “uh, no, also, this car is clearly stolen? ” Some scumbag had stolen the VIN to make their clone look like the real one. So somewhere out there, somebody paid 6 digits for a clone with a faked and stolen VIN, titled, and registered it .

WilliamsSW > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 09/21/2018 at 14:09

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The real issue here is the bubble in prices, which I would attribute to boomers and X’ers that are near/at retirement and have money to burn.

Asset bubbles (of any kind) attract scam artists looking for a buck. *All* of the auction houses are an attractive outlet for scammers - because it’s a lot harder to do your due diligence at an auction than it is via private sale.

And I don’t know about Barrett-Jackson, Sotheby’s and others, but I’m telling you - Mecum really does NOT do a lot of vetting, except *maybe* some cursory inspection of some of the high dollar cars.    

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > WilliamsSW 09/21/2018 at 15:36

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It’s a lot more complicated than that. The bubble on ‘cars’ in general is inflating again, but BaT is creating some truly batshit insane specific-model bubbles. We’re talking so far detached from reality as to be a very significant fiscal risk.

Case in point, Porsche 997's, and certain BMW 3-series. BaT specifically has created and perpetuated the bubble. If you look at the historical bubble cars (that is: muscle cars) the valuations are still nowhere NEAR where they were.

I mean seriously, there was a time not so long ago you could not touch a real ‘Cuda AAR for under $135k. No, I am not joking. Here’s what the bubble actually looked like.

That’s Hagerty, based on sales data. As you can see, the values are still very high but are still more than 50% off 2006 peaks. They’re above pre-bubble not because of a new bubble, but because of increasing scarcity. (They ain’t making more!)

But what BaT is doing at this point, is creating an artificial bubble in the valuations of certain models. Porsche 997.2 GTS average prices jumped nearly $10k on one BaT sale. And aside from very specifically mine ? The GTS is not exceptionally rare. More than 4,400 C2GTSes. (Or more than double combined C4GTS.)

That’s what BaT’s done. Don’t look at the Concours and Excellent. Look at the Good and Fair. “Fair” is a project car. Those prices have shot up, and Hagerty provides a slightly skewed view in that they’re also picking up all the “fuck it, first one to get it off my lawn” sales too. And trying to claim it’s not BaT at fault? Yeah. No. Look at the M3 spikes. Concours jumped in ‘12 and ‘13 but immediately plateaued then dipped. Other conditions had much smaller jumps.

Then BaT launches in mid-2015. And instantly you see a more than 50 % jump in ‘good’ condition, a dip, and then it just keeps climbing. From 2012 to 2018, the value of a running M3 has gone from $8,000 to $30,300. Of that $22,300 difference? $13,300 occurred after BaT’s launch. And remember, that is for FAIR CONDITION M3's. Not concours. Not even excellent. We’re talking daily driver grade at BEST with paint damage, glass damage, split seams, cracked dashes - project cars .

Good grade is NOT that much better. Quoth Hagerty: “vehicles could possess some, but not all of the issues of a #4 vehicle, but they will be balanced by other factors such as a fresh paint job or a new, correct interior where applicable. #3 vehicles drive and run well, but might have some incorrect parts. These vehicles are not used for daily transportation but are ready for a long tour without excuses, and the casual passerby will not find any visual flaws. “Good” is the one word description of a #3 vehicle.”

I f you want a real picture of how bad it is, at January 2015 the value of a concours-grade M3 with less than 50k was $67,500. In May 2015, it was $67,900. In September 2015, post-BaT, $105,000 . January ‘16, $115k. September 2018, $137,000. That’s a 105% jump .

That’s what BaT does.