Thoughts on virtual mirrors?

"Probenja" (probenja) 09/18/2018 at 08:12 • Filed to: None

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So apparently they are a thing now, cameras replace the mirrors and show the image on 7" touchscreens mounted on the door. You can still get regular mirrors and you probably  won’t see this option in places where it’s not legal but they look cool although it’s yet another thing to break

Mirror part starts at 17:15 if kinja.

Also the new e-tron is now my favourite electric suv type thing, although I was hoping they used that name for a more sporty looking car rather than yet another suv.

Racin'Jason001 > Probenja 09/18/2018 at 08:20

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That’s interesting and all, but I don’t see it getting a nywhere. It must cost more than the production of a regular mirror. I don’t see the safety organization taking to the idea of looking into a camera rather than a mirror.

Wacko > Probenja 09/18/2018 at 08:24

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it a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist .

this is a perfect example of ain’t broken so don’t fix it.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > Probenja 09/18/2018 at 08:27

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more electrickery to fail hooraaay!

as a person that hates working on the electrickeries of cars im against this

facw > Probenja 09/18/2018 at 08:38

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I think it is dumb that they are just putting the displays on the A-pillars. One of the ways they are better is that you can put them anywhere, which means you can put them somewhere where the driver can check them more easily.

TysMagic > facw 09/18/2018 at 08:40

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I was thinking the same thing. This is much less obtrusive than the Lexus “add on screen” look at least. 

TheRealBicycleBuck > facw 09/18/2018 at 08:47

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It’s a training thing. People who use their mirrors look toward the A-pillar to see them and expect to see them there. It may take a few generations, but the screens  will eventually move into a heads-up display on the windshield. That technology has to catch up first.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Wacko 09/18/2018 at 08:52

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Supposedly, this is for aerodynamics. If that is truly the case, then I don’t understand why the cameras are mounted on mirror stalks. Just put them into the A-pillar and call it good. If they are needed for towing, then mount them on a stalk that lies flush with the A-pillar in normal operation, but can swing out for towing. Crabs have had this figured out for mille nni a .

BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind > Racin'Jason001 09/18/2018 at 08:54

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I disagree. A small camera is much less expensive than a mirror (remember, these are luxury cars so you’re talking about heated / power / self-folding mirrors here), will be less likely to get damaged (and again cheaper if it is), and eventually will he integrated into an already existing HUD or similar. This is on top of the legitimate fuel savings you’re going to get with them.  I think camera-mirrors have to be the way to go.

BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 09/18/2018 at 08:56

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And they’re less complex than standard luxury car mirrors that are already controlled by the CANBUS system?  The mirrors on my car cost over $400 EACH if they get broken, there’s no way a small camera is more expensive than that. 

BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind > Wacko 09/18/2018 at 08:57

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But it IS a problem and needs to be addressed. External mirrors make the car lose 1-3mpg depending on their size, plus are expensive to build and repair and easily breakable. 

Wacko > TheRealBicycleBuck 09/18/2018 at 08:58

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but they would always be left out just like a dodge towing an invisible trailer.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Probenja 09/18/2018 at 09:00

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No. Just no.

- Mirrors do the same job, for less money

- Cameras mounted on the outside of the vehicle get schmoo all over them and you can’t see out. On backup cameras this can be negated by having them retract. Not for side mirrors.

- The tech, while good, is not bulletproof. Witness to that, backup cameras again. They’re great and I think everything should have them (though not necessarily legislated) but they don’t age well. Water gets into the electronics. The wires fatigue. Etc. All of which leads to a flickering camera at the wrong time, or an entirely dead camera. An annoyance with a backup camera, a hazard if it’s your side mirror.

- Electronics lag. Camera images never move as quickly as the object they are capturing. Not idea for high-speed scenarios such as driving.

So yeah, no. If they want to put in cameras as an auxiliary system to COMPLEMENT the mirrors and cover blind spots, great. I’d much rather that than the beepy BLIS things, in the same way that backup cameras are better than those sensors that go into full panic mode 5' from the curb behind you. But as a primary system, no.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind 09/18/2018 at 09:00

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i’d say that means your mirrors have to many electrickeries too

ill take me old fashioned ones i have to adjust by pushing them to the correct position

Wacko > BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind 09/18/2018 at 09:01

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and how much are those cameras, screens, and all the hardware to make them work gonna c ost again?

i’m not buying it that a screen, camera and camera and screen holders and and all that wiring are gonna cost less than a regular mirror

TheRealBicycleBuck > Wacko 09/18/2018 at 09:14

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What if you could reduce the aerodynamic drag on your car by 2 to 7%? According to GM, a 1% improvement in drag translates to a 0 .2 mpg improvement in fuel efficiency. If you can reduce drag by 5%, then you are improving your fuel efficiency by 1 mpg which is significant over the lifetime of the car. That should offset the costs.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Wacko 09/18/2018 at 09:16

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Make them retract electrically and tie them to towing mode. If you aren’t in towing mode, your mirrors retract automatically.

Wacko > TheRealBicycleBuck 09/18/2018 at 09:31

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then that wont sell to any Ram driver

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > TheRealBicycleBuck 09/18/2018 at 09:49

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On something with ridiculously low economy (I used 15mpg) over 200,000 miles it’s something like $3000 saved. For something that gets 30mpg already that’s potentially less than a grand. My money says maintenance costs on aging electrical will outweigh that, but I could be wrong.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > Probenja 09/18/2018 at 09:51

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Absolutely the future. As others have expressed, all the wiring that goes into a current mirror is probably just as expensive as a camera and screen.

Additionally, think about it in the context of an increasingly automated driving experience. Adding those cameras information to the sensor data that the AI can use is probably a fairly significant advantage. Sensor f usion is the future, more data equals  more better.

Cé hé sin > Wacko 09/18/2018 at 10:00

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Mercedes have just introduced the latest version of their Actros truck which has, where legal, cameras in p lace of mirrors. They said, in answer to questions on th e subject, that the cameras aren’t much more expensive.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind 09/18/2018 at 10:03

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- To the customer, especially from a German manufacturer? You’ve got yourself a bet.

To me, it’s more about safety than cost.

- An electrical failure in a standard mirror is not the end of the world. It still reflects, you’ll just have to adjust it manually (assuming TOTAL failure rather than heater element or something like that). A failure of the camera leaves you blind.

- While a camera is less likely to get physically broken than a mirror, it’s a lot easier to coat with road schmoo. A camera lens is small. A mirror is big. Even a busted up mirror, assuming it hasn’t totally fallen out, provides more visibility than a dirty camera lens.

- I’ve had plenty of cameras shit the bed or glitch out on me spontaneously . I’ve never had a problem with mirrors personally, and those I have encountered within friends and family that got busted up were quite resilient. More likely than not the worst case was the glass having to be taped in while waiting for a replacement, usually it’s the housing that takes the brunt of the blow--but enough support remains that the mirror can still be clipped back into place. Once the camera is dead, that’s it. No picture.

Urambo Tauro > TheRealBicycleBuck 09/18/2018 at 10:41

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I like the swing-out idea. Not just for towing, but for normal driving so that you can still have a little overlap with the main rearview. Can’t do that if the lens was tight against the body.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Urambo Tauro 09/18/2018 at 10:47

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They can do some magical things with the right camera placement and the correct amount of fisheye. I was skeptical at first, but I’ve come to love the backup camera system in my rental Maxima .

Urambo Tauro > BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind 09/18/2018 at 10:48

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A small camera is much less expensive than a mirror

Citation needed. I know there are cheap cameras out there, but would they be good enough for this application? T he resolution of a mirror is hard to beat. Plus I don’t see power adjustment or folding features going away just because it’s a camera.

Urambo Tauro > TheRealBicycleBuck 09/18/2018 at 11:08

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Looks good for parking, but would side cameras like that be good enough for driving? I think I’d need a better transition/overlap between the side and rear footage. Plus there’s the resolution issue. I don’t want to miss a fast-approaching vehicle because it’s only a few pixels. F isheyes are nice, but that’s some pretty heavy distortion there.

VonBootWilly - Likes Toyota, but it's still complicated. > Probenja 09/18/2018 at 11:23

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Most cases I’d say no, but if it can be useful, then maybe.

If you could get the cam to produce a clear image in winter, slush spray, etc. Those times when my mirrors are basically air brakes.

Also if they could self adjust the image for headlight glare.

Would be even cooler if it could display tracking like lemans racecars. Maybe have different levels or settings in a menu, dumb it down for 90% of buyers, then give the extra features for the people who probably would appreciate it.

Unfortunately when it finally breaks in the future, there will need to be a way to retrofit a good old mirror.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Urambo Tauro 09/18/2018 at 11:50

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It’s fine for parking, but you are right, they would have to point them in a different direction and make some improvements in clarity for use as a rear-view mirror. The point was that they are already doing some amazing things with a few cameras. Giving appropriate coverage and clarity should be too difficult.

BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind > Wacko 09/18/2018 at 11:56

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From a cost standpoint, about $2 per camera and nothing to integrate it into an already existing HUD. A little screen like what’s being used now is maybe $20. 

Wacko > BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind 09/18/2018 at 13:02

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well a mirror it self costs like . 50$

what is expensive is what holds the mirror, just like what will hold that camera had has no fail safe to it.

MUGENJIBZ > Probenja 09/18/2018 at 16:47

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That Youtube channel is amazing. That is all. 

Racin'Jason001 > BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind 09/18/2018 at 20:23

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You’re points are way better, they make more sense. :) I was just generally speculating.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > TheRealBicycleBuck 09/18/2018 at 21:42

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F-35, 360 deg viewing