Fuck Speed Cameras

"Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer" (smallbear94) 09/07/2018 at 12:00 • Filed to: None

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*RANT*

Fuck Tory for asking for them, fuck Wynne for introducing legislation to re-allow them, and if they don’t stop it fuck the current gov’t too.

*Disclaimer—don’t take this as whiny speeder that’s sick of getting caught. I haven’t had a ticket in coming up 7 years. Instead take it as it is int end ed —a vehement disagreement with speed cameras, and in fact revenue collection devices photographic enforcement as a whole.*

The intent is great. The intent is ALWAYS great. The intent in this case, is to make school zones safer for kids. I have two main problems, however, with the method chosen to do this.

1. Speed enforcement in general does fuck all. People tend to drive where they feel comfortable, not where some politician decides is best. Speed Cameras *may* be more effective because they don’t give any room for grey areas, however:

- The fines must be exorbitant to work, especially as there’s no points and no insurance impact due to not being able to identify the driver. (Predicted by some at $325 for 1-15km/h over the limit)

- The cameras simply can’t work unless you are (a) familiar with the are and where the cameras are, or (b) the cameras are marked.

- If they aren’t marked, odds are nobody notices and the city gets a nice fat load of cash—but doesn’t achieve the intended effect of slowing people down. If they are marked, people will probably pay attention but no revenue is generated. That’s fine by me. However I question the logic of spending ~$70,000 per unit (City of TO says it’s 4-month pilot which can’t legally issue tickets yet will cost $50k, a trial in Quebec recently came up with $70-100k a piece as the actual cost) on what effectively becomes a glorified speed bump if it’s actually effective. You know what else is effective? Much as I hate them, those bolt-down rubber speed bumps.

- Changing the road design has been found to be much more effective at reducing vehicle speeds. Add speed bumps. Paint on some parking spots to narrow the roadway. Add a bike lane or two. Make the stretch passing the school one-way. Add central dividers (kinda like pylons that are bolted down) to take away the extra width when cars are stopped on both sides of the road. None of that requires extensive road modifications... unless the road is due for resurfacing anyway.

- I happen to live across from a school. The problems I see are usually less speed and more people stopping on both sides of the street to let kids out (leaving only room for one vehicle to pass through, with poor visibility), people doing three-point turns instead of simply going around the block (news flash—kids aren’t exactly tall, and beltlines are only getting higher) etc. When there are kids present it’s pretty much impossible to go quickly anyways. When there aren’t... like in the middle of the night or the middle of summer... will the cameras be off? You bet your ass they won’t.

I just see no way for this to be justified. If it is effective in achieving their *stated* end goal, there was a way of doing it that doesn’t involve dumping cash on a bunch of revenue collection safety cameras or pissing people off. If it doesn’t, what was the point.

THE THING TO DO TO PROMOTE SAFETY, EVEN IF YOU ARE CONVINCED THAT SPEED IS THE BIGGEST ISSUE, IS NOT TO SIMPLY ENFORCE AN ARTIFICIAL LIMIT IN DRACONIAN FASHION AND HOPE THAT DRIVERS WILL STILL NOTICE A KID RUNNING IN FRONT OF THEM WHILE THEY HAVE THEIR EYES GLUED TO THE SPEEDO. THE CORRECT COURSE OF ACTION IS TO MAKE THE SPEED LIMIT THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO ENFORCE THE NATURAL SPEED OF THE ROAD.

2. The language used in the legislation doesn’t just include “School Zones” but also “Community Safety Zones”. Doesn’t seem to be a problem, does it? Well, it is. There is no legal definition of a “Community Safety Zone”, which means this law, intended to keep the kids safe while preventing general money-grabbery, has a built-in loophole. The City can simply slap up those signs wherever it wants and install a revenue collection device. The first information I’d found was less alarming, saying that they would only be permitted in areas with limits of 50km/h or less. Still shitty, given that there are so many areas around the city that are way under limited. But less bad. Today I found a source that claimed they would be permitted on any road of 80km/h or less. Distinctly NOT a school zone, distinctly NOT a Community Safety Zone —yet. There’s nothing stopping !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , legally, from being labeled a C ommunity S afety Z one. That’s an 80 limit which even at that is underrated and regularly sees average traffic speed nudging 100 as long as it’s not peak traffic.

Various other notes.

- Biggest problem causing accidents currently: Distracted. Clearly we need to give drivers yet ANOTHER distraction then. Here, look at you sppedo all the way through the school zone so you don’t have to look at the kids. On a related note, t here was an article posted here yesterday (I think? Day before? ) about how your eyes actually work and how you miss seeing pedestrians or bikes even if you’re 100% attentive. Basically to avoid blurring your vision, the brain leaves out patches of information as you move your eyes—kinda like showing you still images instead of a video stream. Great idea, making someone have to jump back and forth from speedo to road all the time.

- One of the biggest things I see being spouted is that the odds of a collision being fatal are lower at lower speeds and this is why we must take $300 from everyone who goes over the limit by 1km/h. While it is absolutely true (not to mention pretty fucking obvious) that you are more likely to get killed when hit with a faster moving object, all other conditions being equal, I dispute that speed changes the probability of a collision much. If you were going slower you might have missed that kid that run out in front of you? Yeah, but you could very well have hit the one that ran out into the street just after you’d gone by. Not to sound cold, but an unpredictable action is just that. Unpredictable. All you can do is hit it less hard. Which frankly to me seems like a good target, but not one that should be the main focus. The main focus should be on reducing collisions, the secondary focus should be on reducing the severity. Using a very specific example because it’s the one that stares me in the face every day, I think the correct way to handle my local school zone would be (a) Central dividers. Cheap, but just tough enough that people won’t just run them over. This is probably enough for straight-up safety, as this removes the blind middle lane of traffic we get when cars stop on both sides. However it also causes residents who were simply passing through to get stuck in school traffic. It’s not a big deal to go around the block, but people being the idiots they are I’d predict drivers waiting and developing into a road rage scenario in a very bad location for one. So: (b) using the same cheap traffic dividers, neck off both ends of the school zone at the intersections. Make that stretch of road one-way, with one side for travel and one side for drop-offs. The fact that there is no longer a blind middle lane gives space to react to unpredictable kids, traffic can still pass, it isn’t the drop-offs themselves causing the blockage so people don’t get pissed off. (c) bolt down a couple speed bumps to keep the open lane relatively slow. End result of this is, there is a slow but flowing passage and protected drop off zone when there are kids there, and when there’s none there’s a nice clean lane with no speed bumps as well.

- Small towns looking for easy money? Bet on it.

- It’s pretty well documented the effects that red light cameras have. Reduction in t-bones, increase in rear-end collisions. Tell me you’re not going to have people going through these areas with speed cameras doing the same thing... noticing at the last second and nailing the brakes. I’m thinking of faux government dream “Community Safety Zones” more than School Zones for obvious reasons—the limits are higher and often far more under limited. But it still could happen in a school zone. And while it would probably take a couple outright assholes to do it, who would 100% deserve their $500 fine, the results could be a straight-up disaster. People tend to swerve when they can’t stop in time... regardless of what might be beside them.

TAKEAWAY: Engineering first, then enforcement. Either LISTEN to the engineers about what the limit should be, or TELL the engineers to design the r oad down to a certain limit. THEN knock yourself out doing your bullshit revenue collection devices... but you’ll find out pretty fast that you just wasted money on them.

I’ve spent way too much time on this. Smallbear out.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/07/2018 at 12:04

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Small bears  manifesto.

Spanfeller is a twat > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/07/2018 at 12:06

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Smallbear for President (or whatever it’s called in canada)

Let Canadians Speed Again LCSA!

Textured Soy Protein > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/07/2018 at 12:09

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There are a bunch of speed cameras in my county in Maryland. They’re not marked, but the county does post the locations on their website.

WilliamsSW > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/07/2018 at 12:10

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I would also ask - for a $ 100 ticket, how much goes to the government, and how much goes to the PRIVATE company that installed the cameras? In the states, I’ve read that $ 75- 80 can be going to the company. It’s all just a reverse Robin Hood scam. 

bob and john > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/07/2018 at 12:12

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this is why I have my plate on a flipper system and do dank wheelies yo.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/07/2018 at 12:12

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Also the poll in this article pisses me off. The best way to reduce pedestrian deaths? Focus on things that actually cause the collisions. Namely, distraction. Distraction is a bigger issue for drivers, it’s also a big issue for pedestrians themselves. About half of pedestrian deaths in Ontario (2014, most recent #s I can get from the Ontario website) occurred when the pedestrian was “walking normally” (Fault of driver). About 25% were due to the pedestrian being inattentive. Also a little under another quarter had been drinking or doing drugs, with the majority being legally drunk.

It’s hard to fix the pedestrians though. What can be done is cracking down on distracted drivers. That would, if fixed, at least cut the number of pedestrian deaths in half (Theoretically). And the rest, Frankly I don’t care about. Their own damn fault. Sounds cold but oh well.

Seriously, i f there was a reliable piece of tech that could take a picture of someone driving on the phone, it would become the one enforcement cam I could get behind, not to mention back 150%. I don’t remember what the fines/points are here but they aren’t enough.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 09/07/2018 at 12:15

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Yes.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Spanfeller is a twat 09/07/2018 at 12:16

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Or, set appropriate limits? The ability to speed and not get caught isn’t the end goal.

But as long as that is not the case, then yes.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Textured Soy Protein 09/07/2018 at 12:18

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That’s a “No look, we’re transparent, this is TOTALLY not a cash grab” move if I ever saw one.

SIGNS people, if you must have revenue generation devices.

The Dummy Gummy > WilliamsSW 09/07/2018 at 12:19

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Wow how is this even possible. They shouldn’t get a cut other than standard operation and cost to install.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > WilliamsSW 09/07/2018 at 12:20

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Purportedly, all $$ will go to the municipality in this case. I’m not sure if that’s good or bad.

Edmonton had both privately operated and partnership operated cameras for a while. The city eventually took them all over and the number of tickets issued increased exponentially.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > bob and john 09/07/2018 at 12:20

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I am in the process of designing one, believe me

smobgirl > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/07/2018 at 12:20

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Maybe modern cars need like a pit speed limiter button for school zones. But then the driver would probably zone out on the pedestrian awareness as well.

When I visit my family and work at our corporate office, I drive through a school zone on the way to work - speed limit is usually 35 there but it’s 25 in the morning. If I’m in the right lane and obeying, people will pass me on the right shoulder going 45+ mph, and then prevent me from merging when it goes to one lane after the s chool. Being in the left lane and obeying would probably get you shot. It absolutely sucks.

bob and john > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/07/2018 at 12:21

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bike flippers are so easy. get a door hinge and a bicycle shift cable. done. 

fintail > WilliamsSW 09/07/2018 at 12:22

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And the bribes or relations between the public sector entities and camera operators. You don’t get chosen without incentives.

Capitalism, free markets, lolol

Frank W. Doom > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/07/2018 at 12:23

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speed bumps cause delays for emergency vehicles and just generally screw everyone . they should be outlawed.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > smobgirl 09/07/2018 at 12:23

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Be better that way, though I’m still not a fan (and it would be quite hard to implement). That would at least actually be addressing the perceived issue rather than slapping the (incorrect) band-aid on the issue.

Urambo Tauro > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/07/2018 at 12:24

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Almost everything about the way speed is addressed on a legal level is outrageously primitive.

There are some very good arguments in support of the 85th percentile, but the way that the 85th percentile is calculated is inherently flawed. As long as there are established speed limits, some drivers are going to follow them. You can’t calculate what average speed people are truly comfortable with when you use skewed results like that.

One of the few things that has ever impressed me about the way speed was regulated was a few years ago, when Michigan introduced new signage for work zones, clarifying that you only need to slow down “when workers present”. Which makes all the sense in the world, given its obvious focus on safety. Why not do this with school zones too? I drive through school zones all the time, obediently (yet otherwise needlessly) holding up traffic behind me while the kids (if there are even any around) stick to the sidewalk like normal pedestrians. I can’t remember the last time I saw one run out into the roadway without the aid of a crossing guard or otherwise controlled crosswalk. I’m sure it still happens in some places, but I’m not convinced that slowing down to 25mph is the only way to avoid hitting them.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Frank W. Doom 09/07/2018 at 12:26

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Generally I agree with you, and I personally hate them. But when we’re talking a block or two, and the alternative is a revenue generation device, I think it’s acceptable. I f the emergency is in the middle of the school zone it’s not a huge delay, and it’s not like there aren’t other routes if it isn’t.

Spanfeller is a twat > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/07/2018 at 12:29

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Well, its hard to judge what a speed limit should be. I sustain that if a road inside a city  has an unprotected sidewalk, and level street crossings, the limit should be 50km/h no matter how wide the lanes are, how tall the sidewalk is, or if its used often, but I also think fines shouldn’t kick in up until people are exceeding the limit by 20km/h.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Urambo Tauro 09/07/2018 at 12:34

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There are some very good arguments in support of the 85th percentile, but the way that the 85th percentile is calculated is inherently flawed. As long as there are established speed limits, some drivers are going to follow them. You can’t calculate what average speed people are truly comfortable with when you use skewed results like that.

This is true, and why you need to make multiple adjustments over time, especially where the limits are egregiously low. Where they’re only slightly off, you may only need to be “one-and-done”. That said they should be monitored over time regardless.

We have a few school zones here of the “lower limit when lights flashing” type, and they’re a great idea. But are they going to turn off the cameras when the lights are off?

Kids do run out occasionally for sure. Not super common maybe but still a hazard. But I would argue that even in that case, it’s your space—not your pace—that makes it worse. As in, people driving down the middle of the road which stopped cars on both sides. Take that away and you give passing drivers more space to react and a better angle to see in the first place.

Honestly though, college kids are way worse than elementary for that

WilliamsSW > The Dummy Gummy 09/07/2018 at 12:36

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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.digitaltrends.com/cars/red-light-camera-controversy/amp/

Less than 75% quoted here, as I was going from memory. But 50% in Suffolk County.  

WilliamsSW > fintail 09/07/2018 at 12:37

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Hey, in a country with for-profit prisons, this is just petty theft. 

BigBlock440 > Urambo Tauro 09/07/2018 at 12:38

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Pennsylvania has those “speed limit when lights are flashing” or set times, and it’s pretty much only the drop-off and pick-up times, though it’d depend on the school.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Spanfeller is a twat 09/07/2018 at 12:41

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I don’t really agree with everything there, but we’ve been through that a little before. We have some environmental differences that are at play.

Also, the actual numbers are totally irrelevant at this point. Whatever the consensus number for speed ends up being, the correct step is engineering the natural speed of the road down to that speed. NOT slapping an artificial limit on it and enforcing the shit out of it. That’s my big beef.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/07/2018 at 12:46

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Also I’m going to make it my goal to trigger the camera on my bike

Spanfeller is a twat > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/07/2018 at 12:48

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Traffic calming is an interesting way to solve it, it probably also reduces stress

Textured Soy Protein > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/07/2018 at 12:51

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Actually now that I think about it, sometimes there are signs. On that link I posted, if you see where it mentions speed camera corridors, those are roads with a whole bunch of cameras on them. I’ve driven along one such road and there were signs mentioning the cameras. But not all the corridors are marked, nor are the cameras outside those corridors. 

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Spanfeller is a twat 09/07/2018 at 13:02

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That’s my thought, too. It’s far easier to do 40 down a road designed for low speeds than one designed for higher speeds and artificially lowered. Especially because the latter has gives you both people who will never cross the limit and people who like to go the natural spe ed who are now going even faster because of the people in the way.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Textured Soy Protein 09/07/2018 at 13:04

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That’s a start at least. Cameras without signs are the same as a hidden cop car--if they really want people to slow down they should show themselves. Or, you know, design the roads properly.

Urambo Tauro > BigBlock440 09/07/2018 at 13:31

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Yeah, depends on the school. Sometimes we have flashing lights too, sometimes not .

!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

MiniGTI - now with XJ6 > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/07/2018 at 13:51

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Ha, timely. I think I might have tripped one this morning.  I’m usually super careful about speed in residential and school zones too.  It was quite overcast, maybe it was lightning; I don’t think I was going too much over 35

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > MiniGTI - now with XJ6 09/07/2018 at 14:20

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I’m genuinely tempted to break out the sidewalk chalk and steer the road lines into the speed cameras. Both to get rid of the camera and see how many people really pay attention

merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc > Urambo Tauro 09/07/2018 at 14:47

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Only problem I have with the construction zone signs that have a “when workers present” is how to knwo when that is, and if that guy driving in a job truck through the construction zone counts too, or is it just the bare workers out in the zone, or what if I didn’t see that JLG with workers in it because it was tucked up under a bridge deck?  Too much gray area.  I like the flashing lights thing that Pennsylvania does, or the variable limit signs that I’ve seen in Cleveland road jobs.  Those all make more sense to me, assuming they are used properly and not just left on all the time.  

merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc > Urambo Tauro 09/07/2018 at 14:49

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Holy shit-show Batman.  What level of treachery is this?  That sign can’t be real?  Can it?

Urambo Tauro > merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc 09/07/2018 at 18:05

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Not anymore- at least, not in that particular location. They finally got around to putting a flashing light there instead .

Urambo Tauro > merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc 09/07/2018 at 18:21

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From what I recall reading, “when workers present” only applies if workers are vulnerable/exposed to immediate close-proximity traffic. Normal speed is permitted if they’re protected by something, like a concrete barrier. A row of barrels/pylons/cones doesn’t count, for obvious reasons. ( I’ll have to double-check, but I think that having an empty lane between you and the workers is also considered a safe enough margin, just like the whole “move over OR slow down” choice  for cops/emergency crews.)

I should also point out that there are different levels of work zones. The “where workers present” signage relates to the 45mph zones. But freeway construction is often accompanied by temporary 60mph speed limits, regardless of the presence of workers. Those 60mph zones are usually based on factors like how narrow the lanes are, etc that don’t change when the workers go home for the day.