Rifle scope

"PartyPooper2012" (PartyPooper2012) 08/22/2018 at 08:09 • Filed to: None

0

26

Learn me on how scopes work. We know a scope usually has 4 controls. Zoom, elevation, windage, and paralax.

Zoom is finite. You can zoom in or out to a certain level.

Paralax is also finite. Adjust it till you don’t see the edge of the scope in the sight.

How do adjustments for windage and elevation work? Obviously there has to be some limitation. Cant spin it left and right or up and down infinitely.

Is there anything in there that may break? Like an over wound spring or something?

Or is it close enough to target and few adjustments are enough? I was farting around a while back at the range and twisting those knobs to see if I can see the difference on the target... nothing. I am just starting out so don’t go crazy with name calling. Yes. I have watched youtube videos. but they are all like - go to a 100 yard range.. We dont have that here. 25 and 50 is all we can muster on a good day.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > PartyPooper2012 08/22/2018 at 08:43

3

25 and 50 is all we can muster on a good day.

And that’s your problem. You’re not going to see much change at that range...even at 100 yards it won’t be much, it’s once you get past 100 that those adjustments really make a difference.

As far as how they physically work I can’t help you there.

Hamtractor > PartyPooper2012 08/22/2018 at 08:55

4

Most scopes have a 1/4 MOA per click adjustment. MOA is “minute of angle”, which is 1 inch at 100 yards. So if you’re trying to adjust at 25 or 50 yards, you’re going to need a lot of clicks, depending on how well the scope is set-up upon installation. If you are one inch off at 25 yards, you would need to turn the knob 16 clicks to get that inch.

The problem with zeroing your scope at 25 or 50 yards is that all bullets travel in an arc, so while you might be dead-on at 50, your round will actually impact anywhere from 1-6 inches higher at 100 or 200 yards based on that zero. Obviously, this might change a lot depending on the round. 7mm Magnum, or maybe a 6.5 Creedmore, are flat-shooting, low-ballistic arc rounds and they will have a much smaller range of vertical travel in a given distance. The .308 or the Russian 7.62x39 have a pronounced ballistic trajectory in comparison.

I have always thought that the actual process of learning to physically shoot your rifle, with breathing control, proper stance, trigger control, etc is far easier to master than the pedantic (but strangely relaxing, Zen-like) analysis of ballistics and optics mastery.  I’d recommend a ballistics/optics app like Strelok, which has a huge amount of info based on caliber, the weight of your bullet, and a gigantic library of optics from every manufacturer....

Hamtractor > PartyPooper2012 08/22/2018 at 08:57

2

Also, don’t cheap out on your optics.  People who are serious about shooting tend to spend more on optics than on the rifle itself!  I personally recommend Vortex Optics across the board...

Montalvo > PartyPooper2012 08/22/2018 at 08:57

0

What is the scope on and d o you have a make and model for the scope? There should be some basic info in a manual that would come with the scope. At 25/ 50 yards a scope is almost pointless though. You wouldnt really start to see the effects of drop and wind until 100 yards+

hedbutter > Hamtractor 08/22/2018 at 09:10

0

I have shot my vortex red dot yet, but their warranty is absolutely amazing.

Kiltedpadre > PartyPooper2012 08/22/2018 at 09:11

2

Basically the crosshairs sit inside a tube that is separate from the exterior tube of the scope. This tube is connected on one end with what is basically a two axis gimbal system that permits the tube itself to move.

On the other end you have the adjustment screws and either one or two springs depending on the quality of the scope.If there are two they’re opposite the screws; with one it’s between the 7 and 8 o’c position. Turning the screws either pushes the end of the tube against the spring or relaxes tension and the spring expands.

If you read the specs for your scope it should list the amount of adjustment per click based on fractions of MOA. One MOA is equal to just over 1” at 100 yards.  If it says 1/4 MOA the adjustments are 1/4” at 100 yard. That means at 25 yards you’re only adjusting 1/16” per click. It would take a huge swing of adjustment to be noticeable.

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > PartyPooper2012 08/22/2018 at 09:11

2

You’ll never see anything change when you adjust for up/down or left/right unless the firearm is fixed in place at the firing position. And even then it won’t be much. And it’s mostly only necessary in those rare occasions when you fit the scope to the firearm or are careless enough to savagely bump the scope to knock it off axis.

The only time I've ever busted a scope is when I fitted an old Nikko to an air rifle. The spring shock eventually broke one of the crosshair filaments...

PartyPooper2012 > Hamtractor 08/22/2018 at 09:41

0

I can get the most fancy of the optics and bolt it on the rifle. I can zoom in so far, I can see the fibers of the paper in front of me... But that is not the question I am trying to answer. I want to know how they work and if the spinning of the up and down and left and right is going to break anything if i overdo it

DipodomysDeserti > PartyPooper2012 08/22/2018 at 09:43

1

1/4 MOA clicks at 50 yards is about 1/2” at 50 yards. If you’re just starting out your groupings probably aren’t that great so it would be hard to notice any adjustments. 50 yards is alright for an intial sighting of the scope, but you’ll need at least a 100 yard range to really dial it in or ge t familiar with different loads.

PartyPooper2012 > DipodomysDeserti 08/22/2018 at 09:46

2

Thanks. Trust me. I’ve searched up and down the state. There is nothing here. One must join a cult where they shoot animals to get access to one of these. I am neither ready not willing to injure an animal for the sake of practice. 

PartyPooper2012 > Hamtractor 08/22/2018 at 09:48

0

Right... so that is my intended question... if I go “ billion” clicks to adjust, will it break things inside the scope?

The last stock SC 5speed > PartyPooper2012 08/22/2018 at 11:01

1

It should reach a stop at some point and then yes, force it and something will break. The stop will be very apparent so you shouldn’t worry too much..

Generally, when it’s mounted in it’s rings on the rifle it will haveplenty enough range of adjustment to bring the crosshairs in line with where the bullets are impacting at. If you hit the stop, for example, you have the elevation cranked as far as it will go up and your bullets are still striking consistently lower on the target than where you are aiming, there is a problem with how the scope is mounted. The most common mounting problem would be having the scope  too high over the barrel but I have seen left to righ misalignment too.  

PartyPooper2012 > The last stock SC 5speed 08/22/2018 at 11:18

0

Thanks. This is helpful. 

The last stock SC 5speed > PartyPooper2012 08/22/2018 at 11:39

0

If you want let me know your caliber, load and how high your scope is mounted over the barrel and I’ll play with a ballistic calculator to get you roughly sighted in at 50 so that you should be close at 200. Emphasis on the  should.  

PartyPooper2012 > The last stock SC 5speed 08/22/2018 at 12:08

0

Thanks. I’ll try to figure it out myself.

Can’t ping you when zombies are coming. 

just-a-scratch > PartyPooper2012 08/22/2018 at 13:22

0

There are some good responses here but I should clarify that not all scopes are set up to be used with MOA measurements. Many use milliradians. This is where the terms mil and mil-dot come from.

I think milliradians are easier to use for computing firing solutions, but either messurement system works.

PartyPooper2012 > just-a-scratch 08/22/2018 at 13:49

0

My question was not about how to zero in a rifle but more about function of a scope. I am concerned that spinning those adjustments will screw something up inside. After all, everything has a limit and those scope adjustments are no exception.

If there is a stop, I have not hit it. Say 1 click is 1/4 inch at 100. At 25, 1/4 is 16 clicks? so if I need to move 8 feet, i will be clicking for a while... yes. I am joking about needing to move 8 feet. I am just pointing out that lots of clicking may break something and that was my primary concern. 

just-a-scratch > PartyPooper2012 08/22/2018 at 14:43

0

A bunch of folks were talking about MOA as it that were the only angle measurement system available. I just wanted to add some info that could be useful in scope selection, if that was what you’re ultimately going after.

If you don’t plan to adjust the scope in the field, just zero it for your load, many of the fancy features on expensive scopes will not be needed. When I say ‘compute a firing solution’ it has to do with adjusting the scope or applying a hold over for a particular shot. These would be changes applied to your zero to hit a particular target. If all of that isn’t a concern to you, don’t worry about MOA or mils. It doesn’t make much difference to getting a good zero at a known distance.

Hamtractor > DipodomysDeserti 08/22/2018 at 14:46

0

One click at 50 would be 1/8 on an inch, no?

PartyPooper2012 > just-a-scratch 08/22/2018 at 15:05

0

I am not selecting a scope. It’s already up and mounted. However, I have not been able to get it zeroed. One my hands are too shaky to do it in the air. Two. When I place it on the table at the range, it slides around and not comfortable to aim. Three all the ranges around here are mainly for pistols and shotguns....25/50 yards. Nothing longer.

So pretending I can get some sandbags to rest it on, id like to finally get it zeroed and try some damn shooting.

Dont ask me what scope it is.. i dont remember. I mounted it several years ago and its been an ongoing battle. It’s not fun taking it out. bullets are expensive and i am too inaccurate. 

DipodomysDeserti > Hamtractor 08/22/2018 at 16:10

0

Oops, yep. I dyslexia’d  my multiplication and division.

just-a-scratch > PartyPooper2012 08/22/2018 at 16:40

1

Boresighting could be helpful if your gun will allow it. On lots of rifles the bolt can be removed and you can see down the bore with a scope mount ed. It’s even possible using just the upper of an AR.

Point it at a recognizable object so you can see it through the bore. Without moving the gun, look through the sight/optic and seeif the sight/ optic is pointed at the same spot. Adjust sights and repeat until they point at the dame spot. That should help you get on paper initially. After that you’ll need to start shooting you get actual impact points.

The last stock SC 5speed > PartyPooper2012 08/23/2018 at 01:56

1

No, it is not fun it is the exact opposite of fun and I’ve been there.

Briefly

Step 1. Rifle must be supported on a rest. It MUST be. And the more stable the better. Get comfortable, get in a chair behind it or prone on the ground. Do NOT rest the barrel on anything. The rest must contact the stock only.

2. Fire a group of 3-5. The group MUST be consistent. If shots are all over then stop, something is loose ( ie the scope mount or the rifle to stock fit) OR, the scope is broken/defective.

Not even on paper-get closer or shoot at something on the berm while someone watches for the impact so you know what direction to apply adjustments

3. Adjust roughly the number of clicks per your scope and target distance. ie a scope with 1/2 Moa per click dials takes two clicks to move the point of impact 1 inch at 100yards and 4 clicks to move it an inch if you’re shooting at 50 yds.

Stop wasting ammo if:

Shots are all over the place or the group is tight for a few and then jumps. Scope is defective or something is loose.

The adjustments are inconsistent. For example,if I apply 4 clicks and my group shifts about an inch and I apply another 4 clicks and my next group shifts 3.5 inches. The scope is defective or something is loose.

Read The Art of The Rifle by Jeff Cooper

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > PartyPooper2012 08/23/2018 at 10:10

0

Inside of a scope there is an erector tube that has a set of lenses mounted in it. The lenses in the erector tube are the lenses that determine the magnification and the reticle will be etched into one of the lenses.

The erector tube is sort of like a scope within the scope, and is not fixed to the scope body. One end of the erector tube is fixed in a gimbal, the other end is where the adjustment turrets are. The return spring keeps the end of the erector tube pressed firmly against the turret screws.  

It is very unlikely that you could damage a scope by spinning the adjustment turrets too far either way. Maybe if it was very poorly constructed or you went gorilla on the turrets, but you’d have to be trying to hurt the scope IMO.

You should have no problem getting sighted in on a 25 or 50 yard range. Yes, you’ll need to make adjustments to get a 100 yard zero, but that is easy to do. A lot of people actually use 25 or 50 yard zeros on AR-15 type rifles depending on what they use it for and what type of scope they have. For that matter I built a rifle a few years ago and while doing some break in shots I dialed in the rifle at about 10 yards. Knowing the caliber I was able to plug the info into a ballistics calculator and adjust the scope to a 100 yard zero. M y first shot at 100 yards was within a couple clicks of being zeroed. I’ve got bulletdrop on my phone, but I’m sure there are any number of other free apps that will help keep you on paper as you change ranges.

I’m going to make some assumptions here: you’re shooting off of a solid table or from prone, and you have sandbags or something else to make a good rest while you’re at the range. As someone else mentioned, make sure only the stock is touching the rest and not the barrel. If you’re doing that you should be able to shoot a very consistent group at 25 yards. If the rounds are hitting all over the place you need to look at your scope mount and make sure everything is solidly mounted. Make sure the mount is properly fastened to the rifle, and make sure the scope is properly torqued in the mount. GET A TORQUE WRENCH FOR THIS!!!!!! You don’t want to crank the scope in the mount as tight as possible, make sure you torque it to the mount manufacturers specifications. These are usually fairly low torque screws (~15-20 INCH pounds). If you really crank the scope rings tight you can squeeze the scope tube and that will screw up any adjustments you make since the erector tube will bind when you try to make adjustments.

If you’re shooting something like an AR-15, another thing that will absolutely screw you is having the scope mounted half on the upper receiver and half on the hand guard. There is flex between the receiver and the hand guard and you’ll never shoot consistent groups if you’ve got one ring on the upper and one on the hand guard. That is why one piece cantilever scope mounts exist. They allow for the mount to be on the upper receiver, but still give you proper eye relief.

PartyPooper2012 > You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much 08/23/2018 at 10:24

0

Thanks. This is exactly what I was looking for. I can click away without worries.

I am shooting a bolt action . 308. I was struggling holding it up in my hands at a range once. I realized that I was wasting time, money and bullets. I got a bipod, but I still think it’s not sturdy enough. I am going to get some sand bags under it and give it a whirl.

The scope and rifle are of good quality and I believe the scope is mounted as well as it should be. It’s the learning curve. Trying to figure out whats the best way to zero a rifle in my conditions.

Again, this was very useful information you provided.

I don’t mind making boom and sending expensive bullets down range... but only if I am close to or on target. otherwise, whats the point, right?

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > PartyPooper2012 08/23/2018 at 15:51

0

NSFW for language, but here is a very good explanation of how to quickly zero a rifle. This is roughly the method that I use, and it is extremely fast. Just make sure that when you’re bore sighting the rifle you aren’t moving it when you move your head to look from the scope to the bore.

In your case I would bore sight the rifle, and that should put you on paper at 25 yards. Once you’re on paper do the one shot, then adjust until you’re within a couple inches of the target. Then shoot a three shot group and adjust so that the center point of group moves to where you want it. If your scope uses .25 MOA adjustments (one click = 1/4"@100 yds), you’ll need to multiply the number of clicks by 4 when you’re at 25 yards.

Once you’re on at 25 yards you should be able to quickly adjust to a 100 yard zero. Find out the muzzle velocity and BC of your round, which your manufacturer probably has listed somewhere. Assuming you’re using Hornady 168 gr A-MAX , you’ve got a 2700 fps muzzle velocity and .475 G1 ballistic coefficient. Punching that and a sight height of 2"(height from bore to scope axis) into my bulletdrop app shows that for a 25 yard sight in you’ll shoot 1.7" high at 50 yards and 4.0" high at 100 yards. Once you have access to a 100 yard range you can either make the adjustments to your scope before you shoot and it should be very close, or shoot first while expecting it to hit about 4" high.

Here is an article talking specifically about the Swarovski X5i , but it has some good cutaway pictures showing how different parts of the scope work. The general arrangement of other scopes will be similar, but there are some pretty significant differences in the details.