Subaru's Performance Cars are More Stale than Nissan's

"way2blu does a rev update" (way2blu) 08/16/2018 at 19:29 • Filed to: Subaru, Yes I'm comparing them to the company that showed us the IDx and then didn't produce it

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The Nissan 370Z and GT-R are 10 years old now, but that EJ25 engine in the WRX STI has gone 15 years without meaningful gains. The BRZ was minimum viable effort for Subaru too. Will there even be more enthusiast Subarus?

For the record, Subaru makes some of my favorite cars and I want to see them succeed. I think their roots in rally, and now drift with the BRZ, shouldn’t be overlooked. They make great cars and we enthusiasts need to buy more of them.

What do you think Subaru needs to do? What do you want Subaru to do?

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > way2blu does a rev update 08/16/2018 at 19:33

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WRXs sell like gangbusters so they aren’t going anywhere.

My money is on the next generation STI getting the new 2.4 from the Ascent. I also see the same engine going into the Legacy, Outback, Forester, and maybe the Crosstrek in a lower state of tune.

WRXforScience > way2blu does a rev update 08/16/2018 at 19:36

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The WRX got a new engine in 2015, so it was just the STi that had the old EJ (Japan got a new/different engine in the STi that never made it to exports).

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > way2blu does a rev update 08/16/2018 at 19:38

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They need to make a wack job of the styling, like the SVX or original XT level , then they will have my attention again. The current WRX looks like a Carola with wings and a hood scoop.

Saracen > way2blu does a rev update 08/16/2018 at 19:50

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They need to make fast versions of the Legacy and Forester again. Something that doesn’t have a CVT.

and bring back the Subaru hatchback.

Not that they’re going to do any of this. They are content to be lazy and build ugly, boring, cheap feeing and slow crossovers and wagons on stilts because they can’t make enough of them.

Longtime Lurker > way2blu does a rev update 08/16/2018 at 20:17

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Turbocharged Manual Crosstrek. In a nice bright color. Failing that, WRX hatch.

aquila121 > way2blu does a rev update 08/16/2018 at 20:29

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What does Subaru need to do? Keep making tons of crossovers/SUVs, whatever sells . Then, I want them to throw a turbo on the BRZ and make an STI trim for it from the factory—not that it’s exactly the car that I want, but it’ll quiet the people who want more power in that chassis from the factory. And I’d love something sized like one of the earlier Foresters (or another shot at the Baja, or Brat!) with a stick and enough power to get out of its own way.

I’m envisioning a similar ‘boring cars fund fun cars’ as the dichotomy of Cayenne and 911 do for Porsche; which I’m sure is already largely true—my point is, if at all possible, to lean into it harder . But no matter what, if they ever give up on their rally heritage (and the rallycross program, too), they’re dead to me.

dogisbadob > way2blu does a rev update 08/16/2018 at 20:31

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Subaru needs to offer the 1. 6L FWD Imprez a over here for better mpg.

They also need to make an AWD BRZ. This will also differentiate it from the Toyota version. A sunroof would be nice, too.

If anyone can successfully sell a keicar in the US, it’s Subaru. A cute lil fun city car thing with AWD (or even of those van things) might be more successful than you’d imagine. Bring back the Brat, too.

Although they are successful now and can’t make enough cars now, Subaru needs to make something fun and weird again

marshknute > way2blu does a rev update 08/16/2018 at 20:32

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The chassis in the 370Z literally predates the first cameraphone.  

50ford500 > way2blu does a rev update 08/16/2018 at 20:37

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I’d love it if they would bring back the brat or some kind of car/truck thing like the Baja. In performance levels of trim especially. I’d even probably buy one for my next rig as I really don’t want a giant full size truck (have little use for them most of the time) and enjoy my R/T but could use more utility at times.

But who am I kidding? We all know they’ll just poop out more mediocre crossover blandness because really that is what sells.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > way2blu does a rev update 08/16/2018 at 20:43

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Subaru hands down needs an STi with something other than the ej25. While I love that engine, it’s literally the same damn thing in the 2018 car as it is in my 2006!!! I’m firmly a believer in “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” but man that is a long ass time to just rest on your laurels there. I think a new hatchback is a necessity as well but maybe there just isn’t the business case for it. New engine is priority number one. Continued support for the Brz is probably priority number two. Maybe try a true Brz STi at whatever the hell it costs. It will make the naysayers shutup at least. I don’t think it needs it but I’m sure it would be sweet if it existed. While they are at it, STi everything. The outback, forester, and legacy. Be like Dodge and just hellcat everything. 

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > way2blu does a rev update 08/16/2018 at 20:47

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Crosstrek STi

Captain of the Enterprise > way2blu does a rev update 08/16/2018 at 21:02

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Make reliable engines 

wafflesnfalafel > way2blu does a rev update 08/16/2018 at 21:07

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Build as many solid, useful CUVs as possible and keep the Impreza chassis viable - which means Crosstreks. WRXs still sell well but could not support a whole chassis program w/o other Impreza based vehicles. Get the new 2.4 motor going and developed so it can be used in a higher performance Forester and top end STI model. Update manual transmissions and continue to refine and strengthen the CVT. The BRZ is probably toast, but continue to look for other corporate partnership to diversify the lineup, (like maybe a “brat” style CUV based pickup if those get popular enough again.) Look at a few more creative colors for all lines. Continue to provide best in class dealership experience. Bribe the trumpster to cancel his tariffs on Subaru vehicles.  Voila.  

Dusty Ventures > way2blu does a rev update 08/16/2018 at 21:11

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If the new 2.4 in the Ascent does well it’ll be the next gen STi engine.

Dusty Ventures > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 08/16/2018 at 21:12

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Don’t even need to STI everything. I’d settle for just WRXing them.

arl > way2blu does a rev update 08/16/2018 at 21:23

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Turbo their base models, a-la Accord and Jetta.

It’s time Subaru. New engine platform time.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > Dusty Ventures 08/16/2018 at 22:02

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Certainly more realistic! In general though you have to wonder if anyone would actually buy it. I know I want that to be a thing but I know I wouldn't buy it anyways. 

Maxima Speed > way2blu does a rev update 08/16/2018 at 22:43

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Don’t change anything. It works and the cars are still wicked fast. I say, why change for the sake of modernization?

Dusty Ventures > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 08/16/2018 at 22:48

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That what the Legacy GT and Outback/Forester XT were. If they gave the Crosstrek WRX power and a manual I can almost guarantee I'd get one

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > way2blu does a rev update 08/17/2018 at 00:34

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Subaru need to not go broke (or be absorbed by Toyota). 

I would like to see them get the best out of their new modular platform (the one under the XV, Impreza and forthcoming Forester) but I think they are resource constrained by its development and introduction into the range. Therefore we aren’t going to see new engines for sometime yet... especially at the performance end.

And sadly I can't see them doing anything niche...like the sort of thing that built their Japanese Saab reputation.

promoted by the color red > way2blu does a rev update 08/17/2018 at 00:38

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I want Subaru to start offering the Levorg in the US. 

Kim Jong - Healthy > way2blu does a rev update 08/17/2018 at 00:39

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this is easy. give us these.

Josh - the lost soldier > way2blu does a rev update 08/17/2018 at 02:05

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Subaru fanboy incoming...

I’ll admit that the EJ engine is long in the tooth, but it’s been Subaru’s assertion that it’s a solid, reliable unit (head gasket issues aside). Looking past the engine, Subaru has made great strides in chassis development for the VA WRX and STI; in the past, both of those cars understeered quite noticeably at the limit, whereas the current generation is much more controlled at full tilt. Not to mention that the FA has actually been a pretty decent engine for the sh ort time it’s been around (anecdotally, it’s been rock-solid in my FR-S, but it hasn’t been really stressed yet).

In the future, I’m looking forward to an electrified WRX STI with an FA engine. I’m not sure if it fits with the Subaru ethos, but having the rear-wheels driven by the engine and the fronts by electric motors, sort of like a Le Mans-esque setup with KERS and regen, I think would be pretty sweet and breathe much-needed new life into the lineup. A boosted BRZ wouldn’t hurt either.

However, no Forester turbo?!?! Seriously?!?!

Ar1masenka > WRXforScience 08/17/2018 at 05:22

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Yup. I ended up buying an 18' WRX for that reason. Waiting for Japan’s new STI engine to make it stateside before I go STI. I read in a Japanese article t hat  Subaru is  “testing” the new engine in the Japanese car scene/economy before bringing it overseas. Here’s to hoping it fits the bill.

Ar1masenka > promoted by the color red 08/17/2018 at 05:23

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Yes!

KirkThePugfather > way2blu does a rev update 08/17/2018 at 08:06

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On my 5th Legacy.  My next Legacy wants to be a 6cyl or 2.4 turbo.  Sleeper outside, performance everywhere.  They are making the Legacy very nice now but my 05 Legacy GT would still be nicer than my 18 Legacy 2.5i Premium, inside and out, just needed better brakes, 

ArmadaExpress drives a turbo outback > Dusty Ventures 08/17/2018 at 08:28

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Bring back a valid XT / GT Trim. Especially on the Cross Trek. Manual is a must but theyd probably sell more with the CVT. So put it on both.

ArmadaExpress drives a turbo outback > Longtime Lurker 08/17/2018 at 08:29

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I would actually seriously consider that as my next car if they did this.

Sir Halffast > ArmadaExpress drives a turbo outback 08/17/2018 at 09:12

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The Impreza 5 door sells well around here (DC), so does the WRX. I cannot imagine how a WRX 5 door would not sell in reasonable numbers. Hell, I’d buy one when I’m ready to get a new small car.

Also, follow Mazda’s lead and bump the BRZ to 225 or 230 hp.

Sir Halffast > Dusty Ventures 08/17/2018 at 09:15

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I drove a 2018 as a loaner earlier this week while mine was in the shop. I really liked it, and my one gripe is probably the most common. Simply 150-ish hp just isn’t enough. Put at least the BRZ’s engine in it, and it’ll be the best hot hatch on the market, hands down.

WRXforScience > TheTurbochargedSquirrel 08/17/2018 at 09:38

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It sounds like the WRX and STi will get turbo versions of that motor and the BRZ will get it in NA trim.

Duck Duck Grey Duck FTMFW! > way2blu does a rev update 08/17/2018 at 10:09

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Outback STI. God, sounds like a horrible problem actually. Maybe just a Spec B.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Longtime Lurker 08/17/2018 at 10:13

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Agreed, been saying it for years... would make more sense for CAFE to use Crosstrek (light truck by ride height) than Impreza (passenger car classification, higher average requirement)

New STI.

FA24DIT + STI DCCD 6MT + R180 Torsen diff with torque vectoring (even just done by differential braking on the rear brakes to give the Torsen something to leverage against)

Reservoir long-travel Bilsteins. Forged Method wheels under wider fender flares with 5x114.3 Ascent hubs and wheel bearings, and stronger half-shafts.

And I am sorry to have to suggest it, but if you want to sell it to Millenials, then there has to be a Spec.A with the JATCO 5EAT-Variable Torque Distribution automatic from the old Outback 3.0R and Tribeca, with the 65% rearward baseline, variable bias AWD... preferably updated with a 6th gear ratio, and more performance-oriented ratio spacing.

Sharpen the styling a bit, instead of having line and edge changes all over the place for a bad mix of angular and amorphous over-styling.

With 8+ inches of ground clearance, and some tires that aren’t rubber bands... that could really be a rally car for the road.

Then... when that sells out faster than the 2004 WRX did...

Get really interesting, lower the roof and lose the rear doors... give it air suspension, and make it into a shooting brake, like an affordable mix of Ferrari GTC4, and the old Volvo P1800ES, with the AWD that C30 never got.

(yes, I know this is BRZ-based, but it is not too far a stretch to make this Crosstrek/Forester/Impreza platform -based from the firewall forward, to have AWD)

This bait-and-switch from Subaru... baiting with concept cars that demonstrate CLEARLY that they know the score... but the switch that their production cars are as bland as day-old stale toast.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > marshknute 08/17/2018 at 10:17

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While that might be an exaggeration (dumb phones before smart phones still had cameras, keep in mind)

Yes, it is old... but it isn’t fundamentally bad. multilink independent suspension, RWD... 2-seat, rear hatch versatility, with a brace to keep some rear structural rigidity.

It is absolutely overdue for an upgrade to even slightly consider new car money , but a used 350Z for fully depreciated resale, is not such a bad idea, and not as ugly as a 370Z, either.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Sir Halffast 08/17/2018 at 10:19

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A heavier car than BRZ, with BRZ’s lack of torque is not really a great plan.

Subaru has turbo engines, 2.0, 2.5, and a new 2.4... no excuse not to use them at all, when every other manufacturer is FLOCKING into the segments that Subaru used to own, with Turbocharged 4-cylinder engines, and AWD.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 08/17/2018 at 10:40

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OK... business case time:

Subaru: Used to have 3 bodystyles of Impreza, in the 1990s... coupe, sedan, and 5-door compact wagon. Then reduced to two, just sedan and 5-door hatch with less rear volume than the old compact wagon.

WRX used to be available on both the sedan and 5-door hatch, now sedan only.

Brand-wide used to be All-AWD, All-The-Time, because BETTER!

Now the only coupe they offer is not AWD, and can’t be equipped that way, and isn’t even turbocharged, won’t be equipped that way.

Most of their mainstream options are going from full-time AWD to CVT-only, front-biased, rear assist, despite Subaru’s former superiority with full-time AWD that beat other Haldex-type systems... now Subaru operates the same way as most haldex systems.

Manual gearboxes are evaporating from most of their lineup, and automatics have also given-way to CVTs.

Counterpoint:

FORD:

Current market trends are HEAVILY skewing toward 5-door vehicles with increased ride height. Sedans are losing money and marketshare quickly, as they lose out on the tradition that held them in place, in favor of the practicality and versatility of the CUV.

Ford CANCELS all sedans, and almost all of their non-CUV cars, save a Crosstrek /Outback -like variant of the 5-door Focus, and Mustang.

Subaru won’t tune their Crosstrek or BRZ for more performance.

Ford won’t offer anything BUT their Crosstrek like vehicle, likely to have more than 150 horsepower, and Mustang, which has a BASELINE 4-cylinder EcoBoost Turbo that is both more powerful, and more affordable than WRX STI, while BRZ suffers with graphics packages and a spoiler, and no hope for a turbocharger.

Legacy is not even an afterthought anymore. I say that as a former Legacy GT 5-speed 2.5 Turbo owner. It pains me to not even remember that Legacy is still being offered.

Impreza sedan is following suit, in the shadow of the 5-door and MUCH better selling Crosstrek, despite being VERY under-powered.

WRX and STI are only selling a few units, and only just those because they are the only performance option Subaru has... and most of the Subaru faithful, including myself, have moved on to other brands.

Crosstrek, Forester, Outback, and now Ascent are the volume sellers. None of them are low-ride-height. None of them have a trunk lid, they are all 5-door long-roof cars.

Yet none of them offer any performance options... Forester XT is only offered to offset Honda and Toyota offering turbo or V6 up-optioned versions with more than economy-car levels of power.

I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe that there is no business case for a performance vehicle from S ubaru with a rear hatch and ride height... and for any dedicated performance car to be a coupe, rather than a sedan, when the whole INDUSTRY is moving that direction, away from sedans.

Purpose-built performance is going back to more aero-efficient coupes without un-needed doors or extra body mass. Versatile performance is going toward TRUE versatility, with MORE doors, and a more accommodating body style of the CUV . Sedans are being shown to be the old tradition middle ground without either advantage. WRX and STI are clinging to a sinking paradigm.

marshknute > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/17/2018 at 10:49

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I’m not exaggerating. The 370Z’s chassis quite literally predates the world’s first commercially available camera phone.

Remember, it runs on a refreshed version of the 350Z’s chassis which began development nearly a year before the first cameraphone went on sale.

After the positive response to the 1999 240Z concept, Nissan greenlit a successor to the 300ZX in February 2000.

Thus development on the 350Z’s chassis began as early as 9 months prior to the release of the first commercially available cameraphone, the Japan-only J-Phone J-SH04.

The first cameraphone to be sold in the US, the Sanyo SCP-5300 from Sprint, was released in November of 2002, four months AFTER the 350Z went on sale in Japan (and three months after it arrived in US showrooms).

Besides cameraphones, the 370Z’s chassis also predates the entire Harry Potter series, Family Guy, Spongebob, Super Smash Bros, and the Matrix.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > TheTurbochargedSquirrel 08/17/2018 at 10:54

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Gangbusters?

2004 WRX sold like gangbusters, revolutionized sport compact performance, and saved Subaru.

I can count the number of current-generation WRX and WRX STI units I have seen on the street, since their introduction, on my fingers.

They used to be EVERYWHERE.

They sell a few, but only because there simply ISN’T anything else. Even Lancer Evolution is gone.

You want to see gangbusters?

Build a 350hp real-AWD sport coupe from STI parts, in a compact-to-midsized 3-door fastback body style, like a Celica GT-Four, Talon TSI sort of idiom again.

I mentioned Focus RS AWD drivetrain in a 93-97 Probe GT body the other day, and got more upvotes than I would have figured...

Then put that same AWD performance drivetrain in a 5-door Crosstrek Compact CUV with some REAL performance chops, and give it the looks and attitude of an on-or-offroad performer, like a Trailhawk Jeep, Ram Rebel, or Ranger Raptor, (the off-road alternative to making an econo-Focus look like a performance car as Focus RS, or making an econo-Impreza look like a performance-oriented STI Type RA, or S208.)

Making a vehicle look good is only foolish if the looks aren’t backed up by actual capabilities... but I am suggesting it should be backed up, like it used to be.

Sir Halffast > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/17/2018 at 11:03

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Oh, I totally agree. I’m just saying that as a base engine, well there’s no reason for a 3000 pound car to be burdened by a mere 150 hp. That’s my single gripe with Subaru, and it’s been a long-time problem going back at least a couple decades... they just don’t put enough horsies in the base engines. The turbos are fantastic, but I just don’t understand why they don’t want their base engines to be competitive. For instance, the Ascent looks to be a great car, but it’s only got 260hp. You can get 25 more on a Highlander, and 20 more on the Pilot. It’s a good engine (apparently, haven’t driven yet), but when it comes to base engines, it seems like Subaru’s business model is “what everyone else is doing minus 10%” which just doesn’t make sense.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > marshknute 08/17/2018 at 11:08

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That is an interesting historical context.

I do wish they would get on with a new Z, but I am somehow doubting that they are.

We would be hearing something... even just a peep amongst the deluge of Supra pre-hype.

After IDX concept went still-born, I am not sure Nissan has much impetus in the affordable performance arena...

And even their premium offering, the R35 GT-R is getting long in the tooth, and continues to increase in price... which seems to be counter-intuitive.

Yes, I would love a more optimized chassis, with lighter-weight aluminum offset by strategic higher-strength steel finite-element optimized chassis.

A front-mid 2.5-3.o Liter I6 with direct injection, and perhaps a mild hybrid torque-assist and anti-lag system...

but the basics of a multi-link front and rear independent suspension, and the basic footprint wouldn’t need to be worlds different.

marshknute > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/17/2018 at 11:25

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I’m ok with the GTR being old because it’s still relevant. Even at it’s ever-inflating price point, and even including the crazy expensive NISMO version, it still offers comparable or superior performance to its rivals (Z06, ZR1, 911 Turbo, NSX, 570S, R8, etc).

But the Z car historically offered V8 Mustang power for the same  price, but in a lighter, nimbler package. The 350Z certainly lived up to that expectation, as did the 370Z in its early years until Ford introduced the 5.0.

Now, the 370Z can’t even outrun an EcoBoost Mustang. And it’s not like Nissan is a cash-strapped underdog like Mazda. As of last year, Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi ousted VAG as the world’s largest car manufacturer. They have the money, but no motivation.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > marshknute 08/17/2018 at 11:53

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Frankly, I don’t want a Nissan Z with Mustang GT levels of horsepower. I don’t want it with a GT Premium/Sport Pkg/Bullitt price tag near 50K, either. I get how 500hp/$ 50K is attractive.

I don’t have $ 50K to spend, and I will admit to not being well trained enough to handle 450-500hp on the street, in the weather, or in an emergency, where TRACTION is not available to keep that much horsepower connected, and if it does grip, would change faster than all but a pro driver’s reaction times. That is arguably excessive for the street... and most street drivers don’t use the upper 30% of that car’s power output or performance.

350-390 range in horsepower and torque is great, especially for a vehicle with 3000-3200lbs of curb weight, and I would argue, that is a sweet spot.

People tout BRZ/GT86 for driving- slow-car-fast is more fun than driving- fast-car-slow, but there is such a thing as not enough, just as there is such a thing as admitting when too much is too much, and not being macho with “too much is never enough...”

Nissan Z has been traditionally in that goldilocks groove, and G35 was the 2+2 option of the 350Z, right in there, too.

They need to stay there.

350hp&tq./$ 35K well equipped. Arguably, they could go with a 280hp variant at 28K to start, and step up to the 350 as the up-option with the big brakes and magnetic dampers, and up-sell options, etc, and sell even more.

I would rather see Z be *THE* goldilocks sports car for the mainstream, if not exactly like the S30 Z car originally did it... but filling that same idiom in a modern way... as the S30 comes into it’s own as a true classic car, and is recognized for being an everyman affordable, reliable alternative to german and british premium sports cars, like Merc  SL and E-type.

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > WRXforScience 08/17/2018 at 11:59

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The WRX just got the new FA20DIT in 2015, that engine isn’t going to be replaced anytime soon. Likewise the BRZ is going to keep the N/A FA20. The STI is the only car using an engine more than 5 years old.

WRXforScience > TheTurbochargedSquirrel 08/17/2018 at 12:08

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There are rumors that the FA engines are going to be phased out and the new architect will be the global engine for all Subarus, but I could see Subaru keeping the FA’s for another generation in both the WRX and BRZ.

Dusty Ventures > ArmadaExpress drives a turbo outback 08/17/2018 at 13:40

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150% this

Dusty Ventures > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/17/2018 at 13:58

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I need to dispute you on a few points. The Impreza actually outsold the Crosstrek last year, 117k to 110k. I’m sure vast majority of those Imprezas were hatches, but the point remains that the Impreza overall is still as much of a volume seller as the Crosstrek.

As for the WRX, Subaru has never sold those at the rate they’re selling now. They’re outselling the previous generation at a rate of 4-to-1. For every six Outbacks they sell they sell a WRX. For every three Crosstreks they sell they sell a WRX. And those numbers are staying steady, there’s been no drop off since the new model came out. For being the brand’s performance model its sales numbers are incredibly strong.

way2blu does a rev update > promoted by the color red 08/17/2018 at 14:40

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The Levorg and maybe a BRZ shooting brake wagon too.

way2blu does a rev update > Duck Duck Grey Duck FTMFW! 08/17/2018 at 14:42

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At least a new Outback XT. Or offer the 3.6R engine with the STI manual gearbox.

Heck, do a twin-turbo 3.6 and show the Porsche Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid Sport Turismo *deep breath* what a REAL wagon looks like!

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > WRXforScience 08/17/2018 at 15:13

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There are rumors floating around about Subaru looking at i4s.

WRXforScience > TheTurbochargedSquirrel 08/17/2018 at 15:31

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Blasphemy! Blasphemy I say! Rabble, rabble, rabble...

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Dusty Ventures 08/17/2018 at 17:43

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Ok, I’ll take your word on those...

However, it seems unfair to me to compare both body-styles of Impreza, sedan and 5-door, to the 5-door only Crosstrek. They have to be separated because they affect CAFE average differently.

But 110K Crosstreks vs. 117K 4 and 5-door Imprezas... suggests to me that if the impreza sedan sold anything over 7001 units, the Crosstrek is the better seller than EITHER the 4-door OR the 5-door Impreza individually... and essentially, Crosstrek is the third sibling in that family, just lifted with a different name, the artist formerly known as Outback Sport. (Impreza 5-door compact wagon with added ride height)

If 117K Imprezas means 58 K 4-doors, and 59 K 5-doors, or otherwise split nearly down the middle... then 110 Crosstreks sells DOUBLE which either of the Imprezas sells, by units...

That take-rate is especially striking considering how close Crosstrek and 5-door Impreza actually are, aside from the ride height aspect.

As my grandad always used to say... “there are lies, there are damned lies, and then there are statistics.”

Dusty Ventures > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/17/2018 at 20:36

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In all honesty it wouldn’t surprise me if they sold less than 7000 of the Impreza sedan. Ten minutes on the street and even a bind man could tell the hatch is the lion’s share of Impreza sales. And even if the Crosstrek did outsell the hatch, if the numbers are close, say within 25k units, then there’s still plenty of justification  to keep the Impreza hatch. The Impreza also helps the brand’s economy figures as it gets better fuel economy than the Crosstrek.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Dusty Ventures 08/18/2018 at 12:33

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I am not arguing for the cancellation of anything, other than maybe BRZ in favor of something better as an AWD 3-door sport coupe, that Subaru should have built in the first place, and moving WRX into the crossover space, with 5-doors and more ride height, as a proper street-legal rally car, instead of a dwindling compact sport sedan that high-centers on speed bumps.

I am saying that in all likelihood, broken down by bodystyle, the Crosstrek is likely the distinct leader, followed by the Impreza 5-door, with the sedan trailing.

5-door impreza may get an MPG or two better than Crosstrek due to aero drag on a taller height, but Crosstrek is also classified under the Light Truck CAFE fleet averages, like Forester, Outback, and Ascent, not passenger-car average with Impreza, Legacy and WRX/STI... and Impreza is likely the cantilever for WRX/STI’s fuel economy on the passenger-car fleet average.

I didn’t comment before, on your assertion that WRX sales are not falling off (the way BRZ and GT86/FRS appear to have), compared to the previous generation... You didn’t compare them to the GD or GE generation WRXs... only comparing VA to GJ/G R, which the GR widened-fender 4th-gen Impreza body is not exactly a high bar to clear.

I am not sure WRX sales are as healthy as you think they are.

https://www.torquenews.com/1084/why-subaru-wrxsti-sales-decline-again (2016)

https://www.torquenews.com/1084/new-subaru-wrxsti-loses-big-power-drops-31-percent (2018)

Dusty Ventures > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/18/2018 at 16:57

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I used the GJ/GR because prior to the current generation that was actually the best selling WRX ever. That needs to come with an asterisk as public sales numbers of the WRX only go back to 2010, before that their numbers are lumped in with the standard Impreza. But p rior to 2012 COMBINED sales of the WRX and the standard Impreza never cleared 50k, and prior to 2006 it never cleared 40k . So unless 60-80% of all Imprezas sold were WRX/STI versions it’s safe to say the GD and GE don’t compare to the current gen either.

And those torquenews pieces seem pretty alarmist. June and July 2018 were down from last year, yes, but May was up. At current pace they're on pace to close at about 30k units compared to 31k last year and 33k the two years prior. Compare that to virtually any other performance model from any manufacturer four years after a refresh and that's rock solid. And it still blows every pervious WRX out of the water.

Dusty Ventures > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/18/2018 at 17:05

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Also as someone who arguably knows a thing or two about rally cars  your opinion of what would make for a “proper street legal rally car” confuses me immensely

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Dusty Ventures 08/18/2018 at 19:00

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Subaru’s actual r ally cars have frequently been based on 5-door bodystyle.

And rally cars don’t sit so low to the ground with thin aspect ratio tires, not even on tarmac stages.

A Crosstrek STI, with more ground clearance, a rear hatch, and STI mechanicals, and turbocharged horsepower, and bilstein suspension, Brembo brakes, forged wheels, and oversized wheel bearings, etc... like WRX STI is equipped with...

It could be a street-legal, showroom sold vehicle that could be quite a performer on and off pavement, and be as close to a rally car as any production vehicle on sale, with tax, title, and license plates has ever been.

WRX originally was close, and although I don’t have the stats at hand... 2004 introduction of WRX and WRX STI was much more revolutionary and widespread, popular, and I saw those 2nd and 3rd gen Impreza-based cars EVERYWHERE. I just don’t see the newer 4th- and 5th- generation cars around nearly as much.

Sedan only, low ride height, thin tires... that is sport compact, from the age of the original Fast and Furious era... I am not saying that is gone, but it isn’t NEW.

CUVs are indisputably where the market is headed, and Subaru is GREATLY missing the opportunity to bolster their fading performance ‘legacy’ by failing to capitalize on creating a legitimate performance sub-line of their CUV products.

I would have bought a Forester XT tS if they had offered it here, with the 2.5XT engine, backed by the Outback’s 5EAT-VTD gearbox and R180 rear diff, and WR Blue paint... but they didn’t. 4EAT or CVT only, no sport package options.

Forester and Crosstrek are obvious candidates for a performance up-sell variant, with LEGITIMATE performance upgrades, not just BRZ tS “bold new graphics, and supposedly re-valved shocks.”

Frankly, the difference between WRX and STI needs to be merged, or the WRX needs to get much more affordable, to allow STI to also come down below 40K.

FA20DIT from WRX with a standard 6 -speed 50/50 AWD manual gearbox, or high-torque CVT should be the affordable XT sport baseline, starting somewhere around 23-25K.

FA24DIT from Ascent, backed by STI drivetrain that has been paid for many times over in 15 years, 6MT-DCCD, or 6EAT-VTD would be the go-to up-sell STI option, in the 29-34K range, well equipped.

They should be doing that in a 3-door coupe or shooting brake, Sedan if they can still make a business case for sedans, (others’ aren’t), and both Crosstrek and Forester CUV bodies at minimum, perhaps also even in Outback form as a special edition.

It isn’t 2004 anymore, and other car companies are offering more power for entry level money...

If Subaru can’t do that... people should be looking at EcoBoost Mustang, and the turbo 4 or V6 Camaro for affordable performance.

Dusty Ventures > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/18/2018 at 21:18

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The only time Subaru’s factory rally cars were 5-door were 2008 in the WRC and 2008-2014 in the United States, all other years were either 4-door or 2-door models. As for sitting low to the ground, tarmac spec is very low.

And for tire sizes, the standard gravel rally tire is only a 205 width, and the widest available is a 225, both of which are narrower than the narrowest factory option on the WRX (235).

I’ve rallied 22 cars, including 7 Subarus. Even in gravel trim they sit lower than a Crosstrek, unless we’ve maxed out the suspension height because the stages are unusually rough. And speaking as a rally competitor, we don’t want crossovers. They sit too high, the roof is too high, the COG is bad, the roll is bad, etc. You want a good rally car? Throw some Bilsteins and gravel tires on the Fiesta and that this is a fantastic rally car. The Crosstrek isn’t a bad rally platform (because it’s basically an Impreza), and it’s even being run in Canada and China at the moment, but again, those cars are noticeably lower than a stock Crosstrek. Rally car setup is about suspension travel , not suspension height. You want them as low as possible without scraping so they handle well, but with travel to soak up the rough.

If you want a production model as close to stage-ready as possible then what Subaru needs to do is take the Impreza hatch, give it the 2.4 hotted up to roughly 350 horse, and add a half inch of ride height. Throw in the six speed, the tried and true 4-pot 2-pot calipers (you need powerful brakes, but you also need physically small brakes so 15 inch wheels can clear them), the oversized wheel bearings like you said, and one of those fancy multi-mode adjustable suspensions. I’m not going to say give it Bilsteins or some kind of off road/rally/performance suspension because those are an absolute nightmare at anything slower than race speed. That’s the recipe for a stage-ready production car.

ETA: All rally cars are already insured and plated, per the rules. And in some cases you can technically order them through the manufacturer. (For example, for a while you could order a Fiesta R2 rally car through Ford Performance. Not sure if it’s still in the catalog.)

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Dusty Ventures 08/18/2018 at 22:58

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Good stuff.

although keep in mind... retail-salable rally car for the road, alludes to race spec, but isn’t literally race spec.

Ford Raptor is near-race spec, and doesn’t take much to get converted, but showroom stock isn’t truly race spec... it just looks cool enough to be, and works near enough to be convincing, while still being civilized and mostly oriented to customer uses.

Wrangler is near rock-crawler spec, but there is still a huge aftermarket to make it truly ready for the rocks, because showroom stock still compromises a bit for the 90% of on-road, normal daily driver use.

A Crosstrek STI could do that. Look the part, perform well on the street, and on gravel, fire trails, and a little bit of open ground.

7-8" of ground clearance for steep driveway aprons, and soft-roading, 17-18" forged wheels for modern production non-race tires. unpainted plastic edges for rugged appearance, and paint protection.

Even if rally cars are not as high as the Crosstrek, the Crosstrek still has advantages to being taller than WRX... like broken pavement, winter driving snow clearance, etc...

Dusty Ventures > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/18/2018 at 23:43

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That “looks like but isn’t” thing doesn’t work as well when you’re a manufacturer actively competing in the sport. If they did what you’re saying they’d end up with a “rally spec” Crosstrek that even the factory team would refuse to run in rallies without seriously extensive alterations . And forget any privateers choosing it over the WRX. One of the big selling points of the WRX through the years, and even now, is that you could literally just cage it and rally it with no other modifications, and be quick (yes, even on stock suspension). This “rally spec” Crosstrek wouldn’t be able to do that.

An 8 inches ground clearance? Seriously? That’s a quarter inch short of a Wrangler.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Dusty Ventures 08/20/2018 at 09:35

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What Rallying is Subaru still doing? They were written out of the WRC rules a LONG time ago, and I was Paris-Dakar was using Foresters a few years ago.

No showroom- stock car, certainly not WRX sedan, goes rallying without seriously extensive alterations, and arguably Crosstrek or Impreza Chassis (including WRX sedan) would need virtually the same chassis alternations... and I thought we were talking about a WRX/STI equivalent version of Crosstrek.

Arguably, a Crosstrek could run longer adjustable coil-overs, set to slightly lower ride height than showroom stock, but still use the Crosstrek’s  suspension spacers to have the extended travel between full droop, and the bump-stop, compared to Impreza/WRX.

YES, seriously ... Stock Subaru Crosstrek, right off the showroom today, regardless of being underpowered, has 8.7" of ground clearance, in the factory dimensions and specifications.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Dusty Ventures 08/20/2018 at 09:45

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Doesn’t work well for manufacturers? Oh, really? how have F150 Raptors, RAM Rebel, Jeep Cherokee and Grand Cherokee Trailhawk, and Wrangler Rubicon variants been selling for those manufacturers?

They are profitable sales motivators that provide revenue from sales, which companies use to participate in side activities such as Motorsports, which is a completely different matter.

N o factory motorsports team pulls cars off the dealer showroom floor to run a race with, although Ford Raptor may actually have done privateer-wise.  They ALL modify the cars off the factory floor, some more extensively than others... but *ALL* to some degree.

Dusty Ventures > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/20/2018 at 11:45

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Respectfully, you might not want to dispute what can and can’t be done in rally with someone whose job is literally competing in rally. Not only can a nearly stock car do rally, but there entire categories where the only modifications allowed are the mandatory safety mods, better struts, and an engine tune. I’ve seen drivers in that class penalized just because they switched to a reusable K&N filter in the stock airbox instead of the OEM paper filter. And I can list off a dozen podium-finishing drivers rallying on stock suspension. As for Subaru still rallying, they have full factory rally teams in over a dozen countries, including the United States, Canada, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, and Germany.

Responding to your other comment here as well for the sake of compiling and making things easier, of the vehicles you listed only the Raptor has been part of a factory race program, and even then it was an on again/off again thing. And of course all the manufacturer race cars (and all race cars for that matter) are modified to some extent. Modern competition safety regulations demand it. But the WRX (and since you mentioned it, the Raptor) are regarded for being able to compete with just the safety gear and different shocks. And both Subaru and Ford have raced factory cars with just those modifications.

Jeez, you’re right about the Crosstrek height being 8.7. That's waaaaaaay too high for rally.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Dusty Ventures 08/20/2018 at 12:29

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Ok... I’ll leave you to your rallying.

I’ve left Subaru to their milque-toast bland production models, and long-in-the-tooth WRX and STI models long ago, although I used to be a die-hard fan. They baited and switched with compelling concepts, followed by bland products too many times.

N othing in their current lineup is interesting, nor competitive enough for me to buy as a consumer... although a lot of people seem to like the 4-cylinder non-turbo, CVT only models that all look ever more like each other.

For any of us looking for something OTHER than a WRX that has performance and innovation, (and neither of my 2 Subarus were WRXs... I had a Legacy GT Limited, and an SVX) Subaru has nothing.

Discussions like this end up usually going about this way... any remaining Subaru fan defends tooth and nail that Subaru can do little to nothing wrong, me and others that have been disappointed end up still disappointed, to the point of ceasing to care.

and Subaru still makes the boring cars that they sell... and unlike other brands, like Porsche and such... the mainstream money makers pay for interesting fun stuff.. Subaru isn’t translating volume sales into much that is interesting or innovative. They were more interesting and innovative when they weren’t selling as well, in the 1990s and 2000s. 2010+ has not been as interesting... lots more mainstream, and rehashing the WRX/ST I through 4 generations,  and building Toyota their underpowered GT86.

Dusty Ventures > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 08/20/2018 at 13:43

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I actually agree with you in terms of Subaru’s model line up. My dispute was about what makes a good rally car (and by extension what would make as good “rally car” for the road) and the commercial success of the current WRX (I don’t like the current model, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s selling better than any WRX before it). I liked the WRX hatch (although it doesn’t fly well), but aside from that and the BRZ (which meets my interest in a small lightweight car that handles well, isn’t a convertible, and gets decent  gas mileage) I too haven’t seen anything I like from Subaru since they bloated the lineup around 2010. The 2000s Forester and Outback were sleek, the current ones look like an overinflated beach ball. The same goes for the WRX, it’s too big, too heavy. It’s proven itself competent on the stages, but it’s not as light on its feet as it used to be.

Ironically, despite my qualms about the Crosstrek not being the right car to market as a “rally” car, a go-fast Crosstrek would probably be the one thing that would get me personally interested again, because that could potentially be a near fit to my XT. I just don’t want the see the word “rally” in any of the marketing for it.