I had no idea how crazy the used Land Cruiser market was

"MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig" (MR2_FTW) 08/07/2018 at 09:35 • Filed to: None

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I’ve been looking at 4th gen 4Runners as a possible new daily next year, and figured what the heck, what are Land Cruisers going for these days. !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

13-year-old Land Cruiser with 112,000 miles for $21,000. 

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 08/07/2018 at 09:43

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Well, when a new one starts at $85k.

Rule of thumb I use is most cars depreciate about 50% every 5 years, using that this would be somewhere between $11k-$21k. Then add in that it’s a Toyota that holds it’s value and voila

LOREM IPSUM > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 08/07/2018 at 09:44

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They know what they have, and as far as I'm concerned they can keep it and bury themselves in it. Greed is one of the 7 deadly ones, after all.

MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 08/07/2018 at 09:48

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I mean I guess. It’s just crazy to me that you can get a V8 4Runner with a basically identical drivetrain and similar capability for half that.

Sovande > LOREM IPSUM 08/07/2018 at 09:49

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How in the world is fair market value greedy? The truck is worth what they are asking because the market will bear it. That's not greed, it's how the world works. Should they give the vehicle away? 

OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 08/07/2018 at 09:49

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The GX market is prime. Land Cruiser V8, Lexus luxury,  and many times less than 4runner pricing.

ToyotaFamily > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 08/07/2018 at 09:50

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I’d consider a GX470 along with the 4th gen 4Runner.

Sort of kicking myself over buying mine when I just saw a super clean GX for sale.

M.T. Blake > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 08/07/2018 at 09:51

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Hard pass. Unless you need something that big it’s going to be less fun than the 4Runner. I looked for a 4th gen for over a month before finding a 5th gen. I did have to spend more than I wanted. If you’ve got 10k you can find a good 4th gen V6 4wd. I found several. I was just picky about the color, package, and miles. 

LOREM IPSUM > Sovande 08/07/2018 at 09:52

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The whole market surrounding them is based on greed and the fallacy that their somehow worth 20x their true value. They’re not, to me anyway, no matter how many rubes plunk down a substantial portion of a years salary on one.

Also, for something supposedly so reliable, there seem to be an inordinate amount of Toyota trucks for sale in need of head gaskets. 

M.T. Blake > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 08/07/2018 at 09:52

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True. But the Landy is designed to not break for 20 years. 

M.T. Blake > OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars 08/07/2018 at 09:53

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I found they were just as over priced as any 4Runner. 

MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig > M.T. Blake 08/07/2018 at 09:55

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I think the 4Runners have been known for their longevity as well.

MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig > M.T. Blake 08/07/2018 at 09:55

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Yeah I’m looking in the 10-11k range and there are plenty of V8's to choose from. I just got curious about Cruisers and they command double that.

Driver_41 > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 08/07/2018 at 10:06

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I was looking for a 100 series LC or LX last summer and found the same. Prices on 04+ models are just nuts. I’m still kicking myself for passing on one truck I found early in my search, thinking I would find something newer. It was a 2000 LX with 110kish miles, new timing belt, already converted to coil springs, and no rust spots. The dealer had been sitting on it for a while at let it go for $8500. Ughhhhhh I’m still mad about it.

punkgoose17 > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 08/07/2018 at 10:10

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PartyPooper2012 > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 08/07/2018 at 10:11

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I mean... i can ask a million billion for a Geo Metro too... doesn’t mean anyone will pay it. 

Sovande > LOREM IPSUM 08/07/2018 at 10:13

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So a quick search reveals that a 2005 4Runner with similar mileage (110,000) Limited V8 etc is listed for $12,484. Is that market also based on greed? Or is that somehow the value?

- The 4Runner has depreciated 67% in those 13 years (based on a G oogle search yielding a $38,000 list for the model) .

- The Land Cruiser has depreciated 62% in the same span (based on a $56,000 list found on Google) .

Hardly an artificially high market value based on the value of other vehicles built by the same company at the same time.

LOREM IPSUM > Sovande 08/07/2018 at 10:16

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Well, considering I bought an arguably nicer Infiniti with lower milage for 4 grand, yeah, I’d say that Toyota is over priced by a fair margin. And why does every 4 runner for sale seem to need a head gasket?

I don't dislike them, but I struggle to see the value.

BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 08/07/2018 at 10:18

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I’m in the same boat. LXs are easier to come by. $21k for that Land Cruiser seems like a pretty good deal, actually. 

BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind > Driver_41 08/07/2018 at 10:20

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There’s an 04 LX near me, 140k miles, already converted to springs, $12k. Just can’t work up the nerve to pull the trigger because the interior isn’t perfect enough. 

Sovande > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 08/07/2018 at 10:24

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The depreciation in the 4Runner and Land Cruiser is very close, according to math. You are comparing a $56,000 vehicle to a $38,000 vehicle. In this case the Land Cruiser has dropped 63% in value in 13 years. A $12 ,000 4Runner v8 Limi ted (with 112,000 miles) will have depreciated about 68 % in the same time frame. The market is not as nutty as you make it out to be.

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?listingId=491353004&referrer=%2Fcars-for-sale%2Fsearchresults.xhtml%3FstartYear%3D2005%26maxMileage%3D150000%26sortBy%3DderivedpriceDESC%26incremental%3Dall%26firstRecord%3D0%26endYear%3D2005%26modelCodeList%3D4RUN%26makeCodeList%3DTOYOTA%26trimCodeList%3D4RUN%257CLimited&startYear=2005&numRecords=25&firstRecord=0&endYear=2005&modelCodeList=4RUN&makeCodeList=TOYOTA&makeCode1=TOYOTA&modelCode1=4RUN&digitalRetail=true

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 08/07/2018 at 10:30

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I consider the 4Runner/Surf to be the current L and Cruiser, it used to be that size and not cost so much. They moved it up.

Sovande > LOREM IPSUM 08/07/2018 at 10:30

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What Infiniti? An SUV? I don’t know that you can compare Toyota and Nissan in terms of value and depreciation. I am not a Toyota apologist and I own a Nissan...

If you want your head to explode, look at Tundra and Tacoma pricing. When I bought my Tundra in 2006 it was cheaper new than the same year old model they had on the same lot with 9,000 miles on it. They were selling the used truck for more than the same model, same engined, same optioned new vehicle. It was eye opening. I put 13 0,000 miles on that thing, changed the oil sometimes and put on a set of tires and sold it for $11,000 6 years after I bought it. It was a $16 ,5 00 stripped down truck with a single cab, 2wd, crank windows a V6 and 6 speed manual. I was a blown away.

Nothing > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 08/07/2018 at 10:31

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200s are creeping down into 05-07 100 prices. I’ve been tempted by a couple locally to go test drive. 80s are really starting to shoot through the roof.

LOREM IPSUM > Sovande 08/07/2018 at 10:36

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Fx45, though obviously not comparable if offroading is the ultimate goal, close enough for conversations sake. That Landy looks to have never left the pavement either.

It’s just nutty to me is all, especially for trucks with a history of the frames rotting out from underneath them.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 08/07/2018 at 10:38

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The lack of depreciation on lower mileage Toyota SUVs & trucks pretty much led me to ordering my Tacoma (take delivery this weekend).

Sovande > LOREM IPSUM 08/07/2018 at 10:41

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My uncle had an FX45 and loved it. Thought it was the best car he ever had. Ended up with another Infiniti once his got a little long in the tooth.

I don’t get pickup truck pricing period.  Luckily I am not in the market.  I don’t get SUV pricing either, but I am definitely not the target demo for them either.

jasmits > LOREM IPSUM 08/07/2018 at 10:49

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No, not at all close enough. The whole reason Cruisers hold their value so well is because of their off road capability. Sure that one hasn’t been wheeled , but lots of first owners bought them as kid-haulers or vacation/ski vehicles. Now, 15 years later, those ones are worth a bit more because if someone’s doing a quality build it’s not cost effective to use a brand new truck as a platform but it is worthwhile to spend a bit extra on a used one that’s not pre-abused. Nobody buying a 100-series wants your FX45 and if all someone wants or needs is a crossover with leather seats a Land Cruiser is a waste of space and gas.

Also besides a run of early 2000s Tacomas which had frames replaced under warranty Toyota BOF vehicles are no more or less likely to develop frame rust than any other BOF vehicle.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > Sovande 08/07/2018 at 10:51

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And $56k is the base MSRP, this one looks well optioned so it probably was more like $65-70 k

Sovande > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 08/07/2018 at 10:55

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I’ m not sure if you can even option them? I know at some point they stopped all you could get was what they offered. For instance all you can option on the 2018 is color, and a rear seat entertainment package. The point is that they are nice trucks which hold their value fairly well as compared to other vehicles.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > Sovande 08/07/2018 at 11:00

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I didn’t realize that, interesting.

wantafuncar > M.T. Blake 08/07/2018 at 11:05

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TLC used market is insane, but also current new ones run approximately $85k-$90k.

the last gen v8 4runner had the TLC drivetrain if I recall right. We owned one for years (and still would were it not for that multi car pile up). Excellent vehicle... nearly flawless. It was full time 4wd, so less than stellar MPG is really the only drawback . I believe the only real added benefits to the TLC are: 1) larger physically; 2) tows more (assume - didn’t look it up); 3) it is engineered to last longer so some parts may be better - iirc TLC are designed to last 25 years/unlimited mileage at a high confidence interval

Sovande > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 08/07/2018 at 11:05

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I looked, in 2005 you could option Bluetooth , first aid kit and parking assist . Everything else is standard. It comes basically fully loaded.

https://www.autoblog.com/buy/2005-Toyota-Land+Cruiser-V8__4dr_4x4/equipment/

MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig > wantafuncar 08/07/2018 at 11:09

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According to the interwebs, an 07 Land Cruiser has a 6500lb towing capacity, a V8 4Runner will do 7,000lb.

LOREM IPSUM > jasmits 08/07/2018 at 11:09

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Xterras, Pathfinders , Jeeps, Suzuki’s.... All competent as heck offroad, all buildable to handle everything the yota can, and can be had for pennies in comparison.

Still not seeing it.

jasmits > LOREM IPSUM 08/07/2018 at 11:25

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All of those things hold their value close to as well as Toyotas do when in comparable shape. It’s easier to find an abused Jeep or XTerra, but a JKU in decent shape is still $ 15k and we’re talking about a 10 year old Chrysler product that cost barely 30k new. An XTerra that hasn’t been wheeled within an inch of its life is still $5k-$ 10k. They run a grand or two cheaper than a 4Runner of comparable shape/age but if you’ve sat in both it’s easy to see why the 4Runner is worth it. Suzuki?? They haven’t made a decent 4x4 in decades and a reasonable Samurai these days runs $3k-$6k. A Samurai was less than $10k brand new 25 years ago . Properly capable vehicles hold value, it’s an unfortunate fact of life for someone currently in the market for a trail beater (besides Land Rovers, but you pay for those over time, both in dollars and in sweat and tears). The Toyota Tax is real, but it’s less pronounced than it seems when compared with similar vehicles. 

LOREM IPSUM > jasmits 08/07/2018 at 11:45

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Oh, no doubt that the market is exuberantly priced., My thought there was that if you’re going to buy something to basically rebuild from the ground up anyway, only to take it out and do your best to completely destroy the thing in the name of fun, you could do so for probably half the cost by looking elsewhere.

Again, I like landys and runners, but that asking price is a tough nut to me.

jasmits > LOREM IPSUM 08/07/2018 at 11:59

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Are you aware of the Overland community?

It’s not ORV park stuff where you trailer a rock crawler you intend on breaking to and from the trails, it’s long distance vehicle-based backcountry exploration on terrain of varying levels of difficulty . Reliability is key because you can be miles away from civilization on the trails. Lots of people use their daily drivers. Having a solid platform adds more to the fun than any mod, and if you are rebuilding it from the ground up it’s more than worth an extra $2k or even $10k for a better starting point if you’re going to be tacking tens of thousands of dollars of parts and hundreds of hours into a build. 

LOREM IPSUM > jasmits 08/07/2018 at 12:05

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Sure, though probably .05% of the people in said community use the vehicles in such a way. The rest are just in it for the Safari rack.

You make good points though.

jasmits > LOREM IPSUM 08/07/2018 at 12:53

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Oh true, as a member of said community most of the vehicles I hit the trail with are stock besides maybe rock sliders/beefed up skid plates. Tires and modest lifts when the components need replaced anyway. M ost of the heavily modified vehicles I see at the mall have no pinstriping which is literally impossible to achieve on tightly forested PNW trails.  I am trying to pick up a trail beater to stop using my daily driven Tacoma on the trails so often, but for long and remote trips I’ll still be using the Taco because reliability just has to come first.

WiscoProud > M.T. Blake 08/07/2018 at 13:20

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Its only 3" longer and 0.5-1" wider than the 4th and 5th gen 4runners. The main difference is that instead of tapering up on the sides, the LC is vertical, giving you another 4" of shoulder room.   

WiscoProud > wantafuncar 08/07/2018 at 13:25

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The 4Runner is built on the LC Prado platform (GX470/460 here). The drivetrain is very similiar to the 100 series though. The biggest difference between the two is interior space. The outer dimensions aren’t significantly different, but the LC has almost 4" more shoulder room inside. 

I had a 3rd gen 4Runner and presently have a 04 LC. My BIL has a 5th gen 4Runner.

WiscoProud > M.T. Blake 08/07/2018 at 13:26

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People are getting wise to the kind of value they are. Before I bought my LC I looked at one. They were getting lumped in with the Lexus RX instead of with the 4Runner/LCs. 

WiscoProud > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 08/07/2018 at 13:29

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Its high, but not unrealistically though. Depends on what the undercarriage looks like. I bought my 2004 for $19k and 112k miles four years ago. I wouldn’t expect it to sell over $20k. 

WiscoProud > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 08/07/2018 at 13:29

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Its high, but not unrealistically though. Depends on what the undercarriage looks like. I bought my 2004 for $19k and 112k miles four years ago. I wouldn’t expect it to sell over $20k. 

WiscoProud > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 08/07/2018 at 13:29

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Its high, but not unrealistically though. Depends on what the undercarriage looks like. I bought my 2004 for $19k and 112k miles four years ago. I wouldn’t expect it to sell over $20k. 

Driver_41 > BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind 08/07/2018 at 13:52

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If it has a good service history that’s a solid price.

Party-vi > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 08/07/2018 at 15:47

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I am hoping mom cuts me a deal when she’s done with her 2018 Land Cruiser.

Cooking Geek > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 08/07/2018 at 19:20

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The only similarity in that generation is the engine.

I’ve owned 4Runners, an ‘88 FJ62, and now a ‘15 200 series. Not even in the same class, it’s like the Cruisers are built by a different company. They drive like they are chiseled out of solid granite.

Never call a Land Cruiser a “Landy”. That's an insult. Landys are Land Rovers.

AllSpooledUp > M.T. Blake 08/07/2018 at 22:11

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* 25 years

AllSpooledUp > M.T. Blake 08/07/2018 at 22:11

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Why less fun? 

Whatsamawhozit > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 08/07/2018 at 22:27

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I just think it's funny that your signature has mr2 in it and you're acting like you aren't familiar with silly resale value on early to mid 90s Toyota low production vehicles

M.T. Blake > AllSpooledUp 08/07/2018 at 22:46

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Bigger SUVs aren’t as fun to drive. Heavy, slow, thirsty, more difficult to park or get through obstacles, more top heavy, etc., my opinion of course.

Jamesino > Party-vi 08/07/2018 at 23:30

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Ive had 4runners and Landcruisers. Both great rigs. I prefer the LC (mine is 1996, solid axles, shorter, mostly mechanical systems yet ABS an d ai rbags) but they both have pros and cons. My LC happens to have appreciated since I bought it, which is a  helpful hedge against abysmal mileage. Ymmv

TulsaMtnBiker (OkieRising) > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 08/07/2018 at 23:50

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Pretty high demand right now. I suggest looking at the lx4 70 as well. The LX is more capable in stock trim and generally a bit cheaper. Alternatively 150k miles and up are usually a fair bit cheaper. Think I paid $ 18k for my 05 in 2012?

That said my 05LC has 200k miles on it and it hasn’t had a single issue. Preventative maintenance is all I’ve spent.

I’ll also suggest looking at the gx470 over the 4rnr, you can find some gems for $ 10-15k.

Frankly the cruisers don’t always make sense, but damn you just get it after opening one for a bit.

Currently have an 20 05 & 20 14, had a 1970, and now looking to add a 1996+/-.

The addiction is real.

PyramidHat > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 08/08/2018 at 00:09

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Have you looked at GX47 0’s? Toyota quality but plushier

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-2008-Lexus-GX-470-c9130

matthewp > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 08/08/2018 at 07:41

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The FZJ80 cost $60k new. Adjusted for inflation that is $90k in today's money.  They really haven't moved upmarket at all over the last 25 years

matthewp > LOREM IPSUM 08/08/2018 at 07:47

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Things are worth what buyers are willing to pay. If you aren’t a buyer, your opinion doesn’t matter. T hese trucks are very desirable but new they are out of the realm of affordability for a lot of the fans. That puts them in limited Supply but the demand on the used Market is always high.

MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig > Whatsamawhozit 08/08/2018 at 07:56

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MR2 value is pretty low, hence why they are so great. Low barrier to entry. This is like next-level value retention .

JCAlan > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 08/08/2018 at 16:49

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They’ll never be cheaper than they are right now.