Summer Math

"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn) 08/06/2018 at 15:58 • Filed to: None

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I’ve got two rising 7th graders who start school next week. One of them is in accelerated math, and the other is moving up to accelerated math. So we’re doing some work to get him caught up, and polish some rusty skills. Today was calculating the area of a circle. Calculators only to check answers. All long multiplication and long division. I’m pretty rusty myself. If I could just get them to be more formal in their problem solving. They tend to skip steps, or try to lump steps together. I hope it doesn’t get any harder. I’m a musician, for God’s sake, and I only have to count to three to play music. 

E90M3 > ttyymmnn 08/06/2018 at 16:03

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What would the equivalent of accelerated math be? When I was in 7th grade, I took pre-algebra. 

TheRealBicycleBuck > ttyymmnn 08/06/2018 at 16:05

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They are a product of the schools. The current thinking is to teach them how to “estimate” the answer, then later teach them how to calculate it long-hand. My kids, and most of their peers, were pretty terrible at it (even though they had different teachers). I had to fight with the kids to get them to learn how to do it the long way so we could get around to learning how to “estimate” it. When they finally stopped arguing with me and learned it the old school way , their grades improved significantly.

Go figure.

ttyymmnn > TheRealBicycleBuck 08/06/2018 at 16:07

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Ash78, voting early and often > ttyymmnn 08/06/2018 at 16:07

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Math is overrated. It wasn’t always, but the way I see it is that it’s the universal language — and therefore, the easiest to replicate with cheap labor.

That’s not to say you don’t need it at all, I’m just sharing what I see in a very large, multinational financial organization. The best medium-term employment and success strategy is to have a good foundation in math, but lots and lots of people skills, relationship building, language, and ideally some market- or area-specific knowledge, too. Pure math skills are almost always replaceable, unfortunately.

Don’t tell the boys that, they’ll just slack off.

ttyymmnn > E90M3 08/06/2018 at 16:08

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I’m not really sure. They are twins, and the school placed one in accel math and the other in “regular” math. They do a lot of the same stuff, but the accel kids get to a little bit more or something. I’ll be honest, I really don’t know. 

TheRealBicycleBuck > ttyymmnn 08/06/2018 at 16:10

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I wasn’t the only dad nodding his head and muttering “yes, exactly” during this scene in the theater.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > ttyymmnn 08/06/2018 at 16:11

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Just a side note, my daughter got into advance math but my son did not. He is just lazy and didn’t give a shit. Even though he may be smarter than my daughter. FRUSTRATING. I’m an engineer I have expectations.

ttyymmnn > Ash78, voting early and often 08/06/2018 at 16:11

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They slack off as it is. It’s the eternal question: Why would I ever need to calculate the area of a circle? I suppose it comes down to a proficiency in being able to manipulate numbers in some meaningful way. My brother teaches HS and MS math. I’m sure he could tell you all about it. If anything, maybe it’s just a way to find the people who are truly gifted at this sort of thing.

E90M3 > ttyymmnn 08/06/2018 at 16:12

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Fair enough. I think they’ve changed what they called math since I was in middle and high school. 

ttyymmnn > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 08/06/2018 at 16:14

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In the age of engrossing video games (Fortnite, right now), I’m having a very hard time getting my kids to give a shit about anything else. Interestingly, the one who got into advanced math is the one who is struggling more with the “simple” long math. His brother, who moves a little more slowly and is perhaps a bit more thoughtful (which is probably why he was put in normal math), is doing better. 

Tekamul > ttyymmnn 08/06/2018 at 16:14

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Oh yeah, sure. No math in music

I’ve got a 7th grader doing accelerated as well.  We’ll see how much I’ve forgotten.

ttyymmnn > TheRealBicycleBuck 08/06/2018 at 16:15

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I don’t remember the exact instance, but I do recall saying something like, “I don’t care. Just do it MY way and get the right damned answer.” But it’s sort of like what is happening in English class. Not only are they not teaching penmanship at all, they aren’t correcting spelling and grammar because they don’t want to “stifle creativity.” Bullshit, says I.

Chariotoflove > TheRealBicycleBuck 08/06/2018 at 16:16

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We’ve been dealing with this estimating thing too. It seems like putting the cart before the horse. 

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > ttyymmnn 08/06/2018 at 16:16

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We are having problems with the boy giving a shit in school. He really doesn’t like it. He’s going into 7th grade too and usually does well in the first quarter then slowly declines for the rest of the year. One issue is finding something that he is passionate about, and that is limited to video games, skiing, ice cream and star wars.

ttyymmnn > Tekamul 08/06/2018 at 16:18

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I never said there was no math in music. And some things are complex only for the sake of being complex, like that 3:5 tuplet. I’m sure that sounds great on the computer, but try getting a group of humans to play that. 

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > ttyymmnn 08/06/2018 at 16:19

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Middle school is probably around the time my parents couldn’t really help me anymore at math, it’s harder when you don’t have anyone to turn to at home but they’ll figure it out. Eventually they might be doing stuff that literally looks like Greek

Chariotoflove > ttyymmnn 08/06/2018 at 16:19

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Well you also know fractions.

I think one of the submarine skills of learning math operations is that it teaches a little mental discipline. My daughter gets into a lot of trouble with long division and equations until she slows down and works all the steps in order. Unfortunately, that produces its own variety of frustration.

Math homework is not popular in our house. 

Ash78, voting early and often > ttyymmnn 08/06/2018 at 16:19

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It’s mentally useful to know that when one variable changes, others change in different proportions — things like that have pretty universal application. Think about it like learning your scales. Boring, repetitive, but objectively true and universal just about anywhere. Then later you can build whatever you want from there.

ttyymmnn > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 08/06/2018 at 16:20

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I remember having similar issues with my twins’ older brother. It’s taken a while, but I think he is finally becoming passionate about music, though I don’t think he envisions a career in it, and I’m not necessarily encouraging it. I didn’t really discover my passion and career until I was almost two years into college. I think schools are pressing kids to find a career too early, sometimes even in MS. They’ve got to have time to figure things out. 

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > TheRealBicycleBuck 08/06/2018 at 16:20

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How does one estimate the answers? This sounds really stupid.

ttyymmnn > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 08/06/2018 at 16:21

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Their uncle is a HS/MS math teacher. We have used our Phone A Friend lifeline more than once. Oppo has been a big help, too.

ttyymmnn > Chariotoflove 08/06/2018 at 16:22

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That sideways paper with the big numbers is me walking the boy on the left through a long multiplication problem that he kept getting wrong. They just go too damned fast, write poorly, can’t read their own writing, don’t line up their numbers. I’m trying really hard to fix that. 

ttyymmnn > Ash78, voting early and often 08/06/2018 at 16:24

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Reading scales and arpeggios is like reading words instead of letters. Once you can see the larger structures at a glance you can play them automatically, and your brain power can be used on other things. Sadly for me, I didn’t really discover that until I was in grad school. I’m working hard to teach my HS musician those skills now.

jimz > ttyymmnn 08/06/2018 at 16:24

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SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > ttyymmnn 08/06/2018 at 16:24

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My answer to the age old “where am I ever going to use this?” question is saying it builds problem solving skills. Unless you are in design, no, you probably will never need to calculate the area of a circle. But, by solving a math problem, you build critical thinking and problem solving skills. Identifying a problem, setting up a plan, and then applying a tool to solve the problem are things we all do on a daily basis. There are other ways to teach this, but math has an answer that can be solved so it is black and white if you did it correctly.

-An Engineer

jimz > Tekamul 08/06/2018 at 16:25

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ttyymmnn > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 08/06/2018 at 16:26

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One of my kids complained the other day that his answer was “close enough.” I told him that “close enough” will cause the plane to crash or the bridge to collapse. And there are enough examples of those in real life already.

TheRealBicycleBuck > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 08/06/2018 at 16:33

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They teach them to round up or down, then do the math on the simpler numbers. It’s like when you have to multiply something by 9, just do it by 10, then figure out the error.

It is really stupid to teach estimating when they don’t understand the basic concepts of multiplication and division.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > TheRealBicycleBuck 08/06/2018 at 16:35

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Sounds like a great way to learn things wrong and then have to relearn them. It’s easier to do it that way once you understand what you’re doing. 

TheRealBicycleBuck > ttyymmnn 08/06/2018 at 16:37

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Sounds like we were saying the same things to our kids. The kids value the teachers’ opinions over their parents and so do their best to do it the teachers’ way. I had to convince  them that I spent a lot more time in school than their teachers ever did and I knew more than their teachers did about the same subjects. It helped that my daughter was old enough to remember the years I was teaching at the university. That was the only reason that both of them decided to start listening to me.

Tekamul > ttyymmnn 08/06/2018 at 16:37

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A million years ago in high school band, our leader use to try to make us work out pieces with large numbers in the subdivisions at the end of practice.  It felt like a lot of math in my head.

TheRealBicycleBuck > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 08/06/2018 at 16:38

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Exactly. Learn it the right way, then learn the shortcuts.

ttyymmnn > TheRealBicycleBuck 08/06/2018 at 16:41

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My father taught music theory and music history in college  for 40 years. I taught at the college level for a while, and was asked to teach courses for which I had never trained. I talked to him about it once, and he said, “Bottom line, Tim, you know more than the students do.” And he was right, and it was fine.

ttyymmnn > Tekamul 08/06/2018 at 16:44

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Time is either simple or compound . Simple time is divisible by two (2/4, 4/4, 4/2, etc) and compound time is divisible by three (6/8, 9/8, etc). Anything divisible by 5 or 7 is combinations of 3 and 2. So, no matter what, you really never have to count higher than 3. Yes, it’s a bit of an oversimplification, but it works for about 95% of the music we play.

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > ttyymmnn 08/06/2018 at 16:59

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This is a good answer. haha

TheRealBicycleBuck > ttyymmnn 08/06/2018 at 17:00

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Good man. The teachers would be fine if they weren’t trapped by the curriculum. The common core standards are what’s driving the estimation requirements. Thing is, the teachers aren’t teaching the primary skill first, they are trying to teach estimating at the same time they are teaching the base skill. It makes math harder, not easier.

ttyymmnn > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 08/06/2018 at 17:25

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This is a fantastic essay and well worth your time to read.

https://www.newsweek.com/making-grade-178860

ttyymmnn > TheRealBicycleBuck 08/06/2018 at 17:25

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Something for you to read , if you haven’t already seen it.

ttyymmnn > Chariotoflove 08/06/2018 at 17:26

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Something for you to read , if you haven’t already seen it.

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > ttyymmnn 08/06/2018 at 17:27

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I’ll read it this evening!

merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc > ttyymmnn 08/06/2018 at 17:39

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We got it drilled into us to show our work, our teachers didn’t care if the answer was correct, without showing work, we’d get points deducted.  I used to be able to do so much in my head back then, not anymore.  Calculators have ruined me...  that and HS football probably didn’t do my brain any favors.  

XJDano > ttyymmnn 08/06/2018 at 17:51

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Summer is almost over. My kids start next week.

Good and bad. My wife is going to cry because her baby starts K. But she’ll have SO much free time. 

ttyymmnn > merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc 08/06/2018 at 18:06

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I can't write with a pen any more. Keyboards have ruined whatever penmanship I had. 

just-a-scratch > ttyymmnn 08/06/2018 at 18:49

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Most of the trouble I see with middle school kids doing math is related to neatness. Doing calculation by hand requires keeping a lot of parts in order. 

Longtime Lurker > ttyymmnn 08/06/2018 at 18:52

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I have read that before, but for something originally published in 1996 it’s still relevant today.

ttyymmnn > just-a-scratch 08/06/2018 at 18:58

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It does, and my boys don’t do a very good job of it. That’s my paper in the front. I’m trying to lead by example. 

just-a-scratch > ttyymmnn 08/06/2018 at 19:01

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 Some kids do better on graph paper. It helps to align columns of numbers and such. 

Longtime Lurker > ttyymmnn 08/06/2018 at 19:01

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Try using graphing paper.

ttyymmnn > Longtime Lurker 08/06/2018 at 19:02

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Good idea.

Chariotoflove > ttyymmnn 08/06/2018 at 19:18

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Exactly what I’m fighting. Exactly.

Chariotoflove > ttyymmnn 08/06/2018 at 19:26

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This pushes several buttons for me. I have had these students. They get a compassionate face, but that is about it. They don’t even get that if it’s the first time I’m seeing them in my office.  I make myself very available for help throughout the course.  That’s when they should have been looking for me.

ttyymmnn > Chariotoflove 08/06/2018 at 19:31

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It’s a great piece, and it’s as relevant now 22 years later as it was when it was written. When I was a TA, I had this taped on my office  door.

Chariotoflove > ttyymmnn 08/06/2018 at 19:33

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Did it repel any supplicants?

ttyymmnn > Chariotoflove 08/06/2018 at 19:36

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No, but I was just teaching lessons, no courses. Still, I hope it put a bug in people’s ear.

John-Palazzo > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 08/06/2018 at 23:04

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To be honest, a good designer should have a very deep understanding of geometry and trigonometry, and they should put that knowledge to good use. Problems is, most designers think design is drawing pretty things on their wacoom and have someone else build it for them.

-A Designer frustrated with most people that  share his profession.

TheRealBicycleBuck > ttyymmnn 08/07/2018 at 00:12

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I hadn’t read that one. It reminds me of the first day of class every semester. A student would always ask if I would curve the grades. I always asked if they understood that  the purpose of the curve was to bring the mean to a 75. That means that if everyone scored a 60, I’d have to give everyone 15 points. However, if everyone scored a 100, I’d have to take away 15 points to get the scores back to a 75. They, of course, opted not to take the curve. I learned that it was important to hold the students to a high standard, never give them slack, and always take a hard line. They didn’t like it, but the professors teaching the upper level courses noticed the difference when my students made it to their class. It really helped the reputation of our programs. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > ttyymmnn 08/07/2018 at 11:17

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My 6th grader is in 7th grade math this year. Buckle up!

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > John-Palazzo 08/07/2018 at 15:24

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Not math, per se, but made me think of this (fantastic) book:

- A designer who started in engineering and whose day job is in GIS

John-Palazzo > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 08/07/2018 at 17:37

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I'll be sure to check it out!