on civility.

"mkbruin, Atlas VP" (mkbruin) 06/27/2018 at 11:37 • Filed to: None

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“ Partisan identity is now stronger and more meaningful for many Americans than race, ethnicity, or religious denomination — and is viewed as a more legitimate justification for discrimination....Partisans are convinced that the answer to our woes lies in total victory over the other. This is disastrous, because the embrace of partisan identity exacerbates the problem, and because our government was never designed to fill the holes in our souls.”

Ash78, voting early and often > mkbruin, Atlas VP 06/27/2018 at 11:50

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Whoa, hold on a minute. It’s not government’s job — or your concern — which holes of mine get filled. So just back off 

Future Heap Owner > mkbruin, Atlas VP 06/27/2018 at 11:53

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All signs point to the US being in the breakdown stage of its empire.

See John Glubb’s essay _The Fate of Empires_:  http://people.uncw.edu/kozloffm/glubb.pdf

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > mkbruin, Atlas VP 06/27/2018 at 12:00

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“Civility” is just a nice way of saying “I can’t win an argument, so I try to complain about tertiary aspects”

Also, your “civility” on display:

Maxima Speed > mkbruin, Atlas VP 06/27/2018 at 12:03

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I keep struggling with this. As a Christian these wordl y struggles shouldn’t be at the fore front of my mind. My  Bible says something along the lines of “as much as it is within you live peaceably with all men” (pretty close to that). I find my self caught up in all these worldly concerns and angry thoughts (sometimes words) to people who I believe are wrong. In this day and age its harder and harder to focus on what really matters; Religion, Family, Friends, ............ Cars . I guess what I’m saying is, while our politics are too divided to be reconciled that shouldn’t be our focus. Take a stand for the things that are important to you but don’t let that take away from the fact that these people who oppose you are still human beings. I pray that all us Oppo’s never lose sight of the things that matter and never stop embracing the things that bring us together.

LOREM IPSUM > Future Heap Owner 06/27/2018 at 12:05

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I was thinking about this last night. The country i s rotting from the inside out, and those sewing the seeds of discontent and utter hatred are responsible, regardless of party line.

People would rather tear down everything around them than work together to make it a little better for everyone, and it’s going to cost us all bigly.

Also, fwiw, people are so incredibly quick to point the finger at Russia over using the internet to sway the results of the election, but are somehow unable to see that there are major organized outside influences actively stirring the pot in the hopes that the countries foundation will crack and the empire will come crumbling down. Rubes.

Nibby > mkbruin, Atlas VP 06/27/2018 at 12:13

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May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house. — George Carlin

BigBlock440 > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) 06/27/2018 at 12:14

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So, your opinion of “winning” an argument is heckling , threatening, discriminating, and physical violence?

Jayhawk Jake > mkbruin, Atlas VP 06/27/2018 at 12:16

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President Trump and the GOP bemoaning a lack of civility is a hypocritical farce. It spurs an almost uncontrollable bout of forehead slapping in disbelief.

But let’s be clear about what incivility really looks like:

Incivility is lying to impugn the citizenship of the first African American president.

Incivility is threatening and mocking reporters and attacking the First Amendment protections of our free and independent press.

Incivility is destroying the environment and ignoring climate change.

Incivility is countenancing corruption and venality in the highest reaches of the White House and its cabinet.

Incivility is our government’s response to Puerto Rico.

Incivility is undermining a merited investigation by respected law enforcement officials and maligning the notion of an independent judiciary.

Incivility is cozying up to dictators and attacking our allies and friends.

Incivility is ripping children - even those too young to know their parent’s name - from immigrants legally claiming asylum.

Incivility is endeavoring to have millions of Americans lose their health insurance.

Incivility is creating a false equivalence between Nazis and counter protesters.

Incivility is using peaceful dissent from NFL players as a pretense for stirring the deep waters of racial injustice.

Incivility is using Twitter to lie and bully.

Incivility is just having the pathology to constantly lie in the first place.

Incivility is gas lighting your fellow citizens on issues big and small.

Incivility is trying to bar entry to the United States on account of religion.

Incivility is ignoring science and reason.

Incivility is trying to run roughshod over our constitutional protections.

These are but a few of the real incivilities that plague our moment in history. They are the actions of a man and his enablers who feel no compunction about destroying the bonds that have held this improbable nation together. We will only succeed if we have a civil society. And anything or anyone who attacks that cherished American ideal must be considered... uncivil.

Words by veteran newsperson Dan Rather

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > BigBlock440 06/27/2018 at 12:17

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No, I’m saying that we need to have the argument, not dismiss it under the guise of civility.

Your boy, BJR > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) 06/27/2018 at 12:24

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Using facts substantiated with evidence is un-American. Go home commie scum.

BigBlock440 > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) 06/27/2018 at 12:25

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What exactly is the argument?  

Your boy, BJR > Jayhawk Jake 06/27/2018 at 12:26

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Liberal media fake news

Jayhawk Jake > Maxima Speed 06/27/2018 at 12:28

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In my view, there is a line that is crossed when politics are playing with people’s lives.

If we want to have an argument about trade policy  that’s fine and dandy. It’s pretty easy to argue about trade without civility being questioned. But when we’re talking about the lives of children, or the welfare of the needy, or the attitudes exhibited towards people of different race or religion, things change. It’s hard to remain “civil” when one side is saying “treat kids well” and the other is saying “treat kids like animals”.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > BigBlock440 06/27/2018 at 12:29

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It’s no single argument in particular , it’s our willingness to address  oppression in general in its ever changing existence.

Textured Soy Protein > mkbruin, Atlas VP 06/27/2018 at 12:31

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Fuck civility. “Civility” is the new version of “hurr durr looks like those tolerant lefties aren’t so tolerant after all.”

Which, if that ideas sounds good and accurate to you, automatically sorts you into the category of People Who Are Wrong About Things And Are (Probably) Also Assholes.

Believing that tolerance and acceptance are virtues does not obligate one to tolerate and accept everything, especially things which are obviously bad. Nor does it obligate one to be nice to people with bad ideas and little willingness to have a dialogue about facts.

Tolerance and acceptance are not guaranteed from those who value such ideas.

And for the side that supports this man...

...to be calling for civility, is just rich. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Habitually acting like a bunch of assholes and then when the other side gets a little nasty, calling for civility, is a load of shit.

As for how this relates to Auntie Maxine, she has the right idea and the wrong message. It also doesn’t help her that she was already a bogeyman to the right, what with her being an outspoken liberal black woman. Which is why she says this stuff, because she knows that even if she “cleaned” herself up for those who oppose her, they would still oppose her just as much.

Your boy, BJR > mkbruin, Atlas VP 06/27/2018 at 12:36

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Incivilility is a 6’ 280lb man red faced screaming in my moms face that my great grandfather’s sevice as a frontline medic in the South Pacific in WWII (a role which he lied about his age to fill) meant nothing because he was a “bullshit liberal”.

Surely, such a rational and level headed conservative Christian like himself must have been driven to that response by endless taunting from my mom! You probably say, all stupidly.

Nah, she was talking to her friend (at a different table in this place) and said she thought trump was a racist.

But y’know, u s liberals. How dare we stir the pot by forming opinions based on facts and policies implemented by the current administration . How dare we converse amongst our selfves in the same room as trump supporters.

This was about a year ago.

Since then, though, I think he’s right. My great grandfather fought for truth, justice, freedom for all men and women, but it appears, in the long run, that his service meant nothing. He should have fought for white supremacy, alternative facts, and a fatter wallet. Y’know, what America stands for today.

BigBlock440 > Jayhawk Jake 06/27/2018 at 12:39

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Incivility is our government’s response to Puerto Rico.

Yes, paying 90% of their repair costs is incivility...

Incivility is endeavoring to have millions of Americans lose their health insurance.

Agreed, but that happened in 2010

Incivility is trying to run roughshod over our constitutional protections.

Again, yes, but that’s been normalized for years and even used the argument that it’s an outdated document and not needed in civil society

Incivility is creating a false equivalence between Nazis and counter protesters.

yep

Incivility is using the IRS to threaten and mocking target   reporters conservative groups and attacking the First Amendment protections of our free and independent press.

Also yep.

Maxima Speed > Jayhawk Jake 06/27/2018 at 12:43

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I agree it is hard. Thats what I'm wrestling with.

BigBlock440 > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) 06/27/2018 at 12:44

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And that could be done civilly, as has been done for years. The increasing incivility sets a dangerous precedence and is only going to get worse.  

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > BigBlock440 06/27/2018 at 12:47

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“ Getting worse”

Like all those people I mentioned above having representation and rights?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > BigBlock440 06/27/2018 at 12:48

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Good morning. I had a lengthy discussion with my cousin this weekend as we discussed our chosen religions. We sat for two hours asking each other how our respective faiths viewed specific things. Comparative religion. There was no argument, no trying to convince each other of anything, and questions informed by honest thought and consideration on both our parts. There is no “discourse” on our politics these days, only people parroting one narrative or the other, past each other , the narratives having been presented in such a way as to keep listeners spun up and selling commercials. And whatever one thinks of POTUS 45, he is extremely adroit at playing in this sandbox, and how to throw the sand.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Jayhawk Jake 06/27/2018 at 12:51

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I think in this debate we are at some level mixing civility with emotions , or emotional intelligence. People can’t seem to discuss anything without having to win an argument. We need more discourse and less argument.

Tapas > mkbruin, Atlas VP 06/27/2018 at 12:52

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That's crazy.

BigBlock440 > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/27/2018 at 13:15

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The internet, or maybe “social” media, is the worst thing to happen to civility, or at least perceived civility.

BigBlock440 > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) 06/27/2018 at 13:16

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What people?

Milky > mkbruin, Atlas VP 06/27/2018 at 13:36

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So less whataboutism from Mkbruin in the future?  

fintail > Jayhawk Jake 06/27/2018 at 13:40

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And you cited your source, unlike some people (who shall go nameless, but they know who they are) who love to copy and paste into distraction .

Monkey B > mkbruin, Atlas VP 06/27/2018 at 13:47

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It’s become apparent that we need to divide this country into 3 parts. Southeast/Midwest, Northeast and west coast. Maybe a southwest as well but those values typically align with midwestern in my experience.

This country will never recover from this divisiveness....line in the sand has been drawn. 

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > BigBlock440 06/27/2018 at 14:07

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But it makes MONEY!

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > BigBlock440 06/27/2018 at 14:15

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Along with first-person shooter games...

jimz > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) 06/27/2018 at 14:26

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most of these calls for “civility” come from sea lions.

just-a-scratch > mkbruin, Atlas VP 06/27/2018 at 14:27

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A lot of the responses here seem to be triggered and emotional. As such many of them skirt the edges of civility.

More than one idea of civility seems to turn up here too. If it’s just about interactions between individuals, many of the points brought up are not relevant. i.e. climate change is not an issue of personal interactions so much as established science. If civility is to encompass all those items and actions appropriate to a civil society, addressing climate change is very much included.

jimz > Future Heap Owner 06/27/2018 at 14:27

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Our empire (as it is) was the direct result of World War II.  It wouldn’t have happened without it, and it’s not likely to happen again. 

jimz > LOREM IPSUM 06/27/2018 at 14:28

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People would rather tear down everything around them than work together to make it a little better for everyone, and it’s going to cost us all bigly.

well, I see it mostly as the Boomers have realized that they’re not going to be the next “Greatest Generation” after their parents like they thought they were , so they’d rather fuck it all up before they go so those that come after them can’t have nice things.

jimz > Textured Soy Protein 06/27/2018 at 14:30

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yep.  I think it was Jon Stewart who said “If people like Donald Trump because ‘hey, he’s just sayin’ what everyone’s thinkin’, then someone needs to stand up and say ‘wow, people are assholes.’”

Jayhawk Jake > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/27/2018 at 14:32

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I don’t think it’s unreasonable to bring in emotions when we are dealing with people’s lives. Discourse goes both ways.

jimz > Maxima Speed 06/27/2018 at 14:37

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As a Christian

it doesn’t help that most of the time, when I see or hear someone say this, it’s a good signal that they’re about to say or do something utterly repugnant .

sadly my experience has taught me that “Christianity” is a thin veneer people apply to themselves to project an air of superiority, and with which to rationalize their own beliefs (most in direct conflict with pretty much everything Christ said.) They’re all “Oh I’m saved” and “God and Jesus forever” but the instant they get mad or see something they don’t like the only part of the Bible which matters is Leviticus . They’re... if people were apples, most Christians in this country would be Red Delicious. A nice shiny skin, but bite into it and it’s a piece of shit.

jimz > just-a-scratch 06/27/2018 at 14:41

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but climate change isn’t real because Hannity said all of those “scientists” are just shills for Obama/Soros/the Illuminati/Kang and Kodos.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > BigBlock440 06/27/2018 at 14:45

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Everyone who’s not straight white adult  males.

BigBlock440 > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) 06/27/2018 at 14:57

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What rights do gay people not have?

Maxima Speed > jimz 06/27/2018 at 15:00

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See, thats unfortunate, and there are a large number of people that don’t take it seriously and don’t actually live any different then they were before religion or (on the flip side) embrace legalism. But that is exactly what I’m trying to say. Being a good person, who really follows Christ’ s commands and lives a like like him is hard. Im sure anyone who’s tried can testify to that. The truth is that all of us have a sinful, evil, nature that makes division and strife, and hate inevitable. What we have to do as C hristians is truly believe what the Bible says; that God is the only truly righteous one, that he died for us and that (while its a gift freely given) we show our gratitude by doing what he says. It hurts me to know that I and other Christians could be setting a wrong example to non-believers by not really living a proper example.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > BigBlock440 06/27/2018 at 15:03

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Discrimination protections in many many states.

However, my point is that they’ve had to fight for everything that they now have, and those fights were considered uncivil.

nermal > mkbruin, Atlas VP 06/27/2018 at 15:26

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The message coming from both sides is that it’s ok to be an asshole as long as you are on their side . It’s not ok for the other side to be an asshole, but because the other side is in fact assholes, it is therefore ok for my side to resort to assholery to prove a point or get them to change their minds.

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > Maxima Speed 06/27/2018 at 15:48

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The truth is that all of us have a sinful, evil, nature that makes division and strife, and hate inevitable.

Please realize, that I am not saying this about YOU, but in regard to a preponderance of self-proclaimed “Christians” I have had the displeasure of interacting with:

“ Similarly, if you believe that someone exhibiting good-person traits is not an actual good person simply because they do not fear eternal torture, you’re not a good person.”

and

“ If the threat of eternal damnation is the only thing keeping you from being a shitty person, you’re already a shitty person.”

and

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > Monkey B 06/27/2018 at 16:10

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I once told AgregateDemand that I was fundamentally a Disolutionist and his Economist/Conservative statements about how things “worked” were useless bec au se of locality, and he said I was lying to make it sound like I was enlightened... I understand what you’re saying.

Monkey B > JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t 06/27/2018 at 17:22

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he said I was lying

strange how the same set insists that everything they disagree with is a lie...but they lie a lot.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > mkbruin, Atlas VP 06/27/2018 at 18:12

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The article is a load of horseshit, and it doesn’t have much to do with civility. The underlying supposition is that the roughly 40% of Americans who don’t believe in a higher power and/or one within the confines of the Abrahamic religions are somehow lacking something in their souls. As one who doesn’t believe in imaginary deities in the sky, the notion that we’re making up for something by being hyper partisan due to some lack of a sense of belonging to something is as ludicrous as it is offensive.

To the broader topic of civility, I don’t think we’re really having political disagreements any more, and that drives the intensity of our national discourse at this particular moment. We’re far past differences of policy. We’re discovering that the approximately 40% of us who still approve of this president, or rather the 40% who can’t or won’t renounce him (and the party that has enabled his agenda) have a different morality. I say this as someone who once upon a time was a registered Republican. We disagree at a much more fundamental level, such as about the underlying humanity of the families showing up at the border twenty miles from from my house and asking for asylum and how we treat them, or that there were“good people on both sides” of a white supremacists’ rally or that fellow American citizens just like you and your family, are still living without electricity in Puerto Rico a nearly a YEAR after a hurricane. The Rather list Jayhaw Jake posted, it really isn’t a list of policy differences; it’s a difference of how we view the humanity of others who are no different than us but for circumstances of birth and luck that they are, of what our character is and what we owe each other as fellow human beings.

I don’t know what going forward together from here looks like. Because someone who won’t disavow this and the people who enable it is are folks that I won’t sit and share a meal with and be able to sleep at night. Nobody can claim ignorance or that “he wasn’t serious”/being literal/whatever this far down the road... Folks still with that party, or think these trade offs are worth other policy items the administration is pursuing, and certainly people who knowingly and willingly work for the administration, are complicit.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Jayhawk Jake 06/27/2018 at 20:03

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I wouldn’t say it’s unreasonable at all, but it can certainly be counterproductive. And liberal politics is all emotionally motivated, and all the conservatives have to do is be heartless and Liberals get all in a dither. That’s what MK Bruin does to get certain Oppos all into an uproar, just tries to be this dispassionate “observer,” but he’s not very artful at it. Instead, he just pisses people off.

jimz > Maxima Speed 06/27/2018 at 22:38

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The truth is that all of us have a sinful , evil, nature that makes division and strife, and hate inevitable

Thank you for illustrating why “Christians” are shitty people. you all think you just have to say “I’m sorry” and “please forgive me Jesus” after you do something shitty and it’ll all be better . No effort whatsoever to actually not be shitty people, and you’ve got a convenient way to pretend it’s someone else’s fault.

Hypocrites, the lot of you.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > jimz 06/28/2018 at 09:09

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I think what you are loosely trying to talk about here is the concept of repentance and some folks’ incomplete application of it. Repentance is more than merely saying “I’m sorry.” There’s also the requirement to not commit the sin any more, or at least to try not to.

Still, your comments in this space make you sound like kind of a grumpy pants.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > jimz 06/28/2018 at 09:11

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Wow; you really are a grumpy pants.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Maxima Speed 06/28/2018 at 09:14

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I think many of the problems that humankind foists upon itself boil down to individuals’ image of god . Do they view their god as grumpy, vengeful, guilt assigning, eager to punish? Or do they view their god as encouraging, helpful, desirous to see us be successful and achieving our potential? Or do they acknowledge the existence of a god at all?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 06/28/2018 at 09:24

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Yours is a thoughtful post; thank you for writing it. I don’t think one must subscribe to organized religion to be decent. At the same time, a good religion has a purely practical side, IMHO, that makes of a member a kind, thoughtful neighbor and not some warrior enforcer of societal norms (based upon their subscribed faith).

For my part, I am a subscriber and I see God as a kind, just, encouraging entity who wants me to be kind and encouraging also; to be a caring, decent human being. I do not see POTUS 45 as caring, kind or decent, nor many of his ilk.