When Tsuchiya Pretty Much Said the Corvette Sucked

"Wobbles the Mind" (wobblesthemind) 06/26/2018 at 05:54 • Filed to: Corvette

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“Perhaps this car looks better on beaches rather than the windy roads?” I love how wildly different the impressions are of cars once you change the contexts to different countries. Shoot, even within different regions of the same country. Ya gotta know your markets, kin.

My general thought is that Japan focuses more on the downhill ability of a car while the US is more about uphill. You end up with very different t akes on the same sports cars.

Wheelerguy > Wobbles the Mind 06/26/2018 at 06:03

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Wanna see him try a C7 then.

Flavien Vidal > Wobbles the Mind 06/26/2018 at 06:14

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Corvettes are very much unadapted to roads here. The C6 is still on leaf springs, the chassis is made of chewing gum compared to nimbler cars and it’s overall terrible if the tail goes out on something else other than a perfect road surface... They are great cars, but not for Japan.

Same for the Honda Beat, which I consider to be widely unadapted to US roads.

PartyPooper2012 > Wobbles the Mind 06/26/2018 at 06:33

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I don’t know if C6 resembles C5, but I can say with certainty that C5 is hot garbage and deserves a crusher. If apples don’t fall far from the tree, then c6 is also hot garbage. 

jimz > Flavien Vidal 06/26/2018 at 07:05

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The C6 is still on leaf springs,

So what?

seriously, so **** what? This is nothing more than regurgitated Clarkson snark.

bitching about the shape of the spring while ignoring its actual design and how well it does its job is pretty damn ignorant, but typical for people who think quoting Clarkson means they know what they’re talking about.

The Corvette has a composite, transverse, progressive single leaf spring anchored to the suspension carrier and not rigidly attached to the control arms

as far as handling goes, in this setup the lower control arms don’t care if they’re pushing against a leaf, a coil, or air bag. this kind of spring can be easily tuned for the desired handling characteristics, just like a coil. And as you can see, the spring is JUST A SPRING. It’s not doing any other job . And unlike with coils/coil-overs, it’s taking up a hell of a lot less room.

Clarkson’s stupid snark is a dumb attempt to compare it to the leaf springs under trucks and older cars; something to give his audience of drooling 12 year olds ( who desperately want to sound smart) something to spout off about.

Leaf springs in a conventional truck setup look like this:

In this setup, the springs are doing more than one thing. first, they’re the springs (duh) which carry the weight of the vehicle. Second (and this is the important distinction from the Corvette design) they are the locating links for the rear axle. They have to be strong enough to hold the axle in place. This design is great for trucks because they can be built to carry a lot of weight (add more leaves to the spring pack) but for handling purposes in a car they’re bad for a few reasons:

1) they really only make sense when used with a solid/live axle, which eliminates tunability (locked into 0 degrees camber, one wheel is affected by what the opposite wheel is doing) and adds a ton of unsprung mass

2) leaf springs extend as they’re compressed, so one of the anchor points has to be a shackle to allow extension of the spring. Which has the side effect of slightly changing the vehicle’s wheelbase through the suspension’s travel

3) locating leaf springs are prone to “wrap” under power; as you apply torque to accelerate the vehicle, the axle will try to twist as a reaction force and do this to the springs:

This can induce or worsen axle hop under power, and even without hop things can start feeling funny back there under acceleration.

The Corvette’s suspension design has none of these problems so stop with the kvetching about “leaf springs.” they’re not why the C5 wasn’t the greatest at handling. The C5 wasn’t great simply because GM didn’t get serious about it until the C6. and now the C7 is capable of handing much more expensive cars their asses, and guess what? Still leaf springs under there.

jimz > PartyPooper2012 06/26/2018 at 07:06

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probably should drive them for yourself instead of letting other people give you your opinions.

just sayin’. 

Flavien Vidal > jimz 06/26/2018 at 07:11

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Ouh...touched a nerve much?? Relax, fart one out a little... I’ve owned a LT1 C4 Corvette for a while, I’ve driven multiple C5 and C6, Z06 included and enjoy the car... My C4 was awful in term of confort, the C5 and C6 were not much better. It was also quite a mess around the limit on tighter stuff and easily unstabled on bumps and shit when trying to push the damn thing... not something I have to deal with comparable cars like the FD RX-7... I would also consider my overall experience with cars to be “slightly higher” than average and yes, the Corvette is very much unstable on anything that isn’t a nice well paved road... It’s not Mustang-levels of unstable, but it’s still very unadapted to tight roads in a seismic country that sees very cold winters.

PartyPooper2012 > jimz 06/26/2018 at 07:26

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I have a c5. It’s hot garbage. 

BeaterGT > PartyPooper2012 06/26/2018 at 08:37

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I think you just got a hot garbage example...

BeaterGT > Wobbles the Mind 06/26/2018 at 08:38

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If it was built there, it'd be a different story. Nationalism is a hell of a thing. 

PartyPooper2012 > BeaterGT 06/26/2018 at 08:41

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maybe... but from what I gather, targa top examples all leak on passenger side. Piss poor design for frameless windows.

Perhaps I have a shitty example, but from what I gather, heater box mix doors fail on most of these.

Perhaps I have a real gem of a shit box, but all the plastic has managed to break off while hondas and toyotas of same vintage run and plastic is in tact and mix doors all work and hardly any leak from the roof.

You can defend a shit box all you want, but the build quality is hot garbage. While the engine is loud and fast, the rest makes me feel like im riding around in a really fast and loud shit box.

And yes. I did get replacement weather stripping... and yes, it’s installed properly and yes.. it still leaks.

It’s a real gem of a shitbox even if I have one in a million.

BeaterGT > PartyPooper2012 06/26/2018 at 08:47

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I’m not defending it but expectations should be in line when buying an older sports car in questionable condition. Plus, it’s not loud unless you're going to tell me about numerous things wrong with your exhaust too. 

PartyPooper2012 > BeaterGT 06/26/2018 at 08:56

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no. exhaust is fine. Loud due to aftermarket exhaust system put on it. No one is complaining about loud or fast. 

Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast > Flavien Vidal 06/26/2018 at 09:14

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But you’re still perpetuating false clarksonisms like a internet high schooler.

That’s what he’s calling you out on.

Cool you’ve driven C orvettes, tell us more about your driving prowess and how correct your opinion is  please.

random001 > PartyPooper2012 06/26/2018 at 09:37

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I kind of think you did get a bad example.  I had mine, granted it was a Z06, for 9 years with nothing but fun and reliability.  Best car I've ever owned.

random001 > Flavien Vidal 06/26/2018 at 09:40

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I think you're wrong, but it might be similar to the old adage that there are sports car drivers and there are 911 drivers.  You may be so used to a particular setup that the wild differences going to a Corvette we're enough to make it difficult to adapt?  I mean, the C5 was THE dominant car in autocross for years, killing everything on tight, uneven, sometimes abysmal pavement.  I tracked mine for years, and it was never as unstable as you make it sound.

Flavien Vidal > Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast 06/26/2018 at 09:46

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I literally drive sports cars in japanese mountains for a living... so yeah... I’d say my experience is better than average with cars in general. Playing with sports cars on “the touge” or whatever Inital D fans call it is my daily job.

And you’re arguing with an actual Corvette fan... I love those things. They are awesome cars. They are just totally unadapted for roads in this country.

Flavien Vidal > random001 06/26/2018 at 09:49

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AutoX and anything track related still has nothing to do with actually pushing a car on uneven tight mountain roads... Corvettes kill it on track, especially Z06... But they really do suck on tighter stuff around here.

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > Wobbles the Mind 06/26/2018 at 09:52

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Funny thing is, having raced a Corvette, I think it handles like a Miata, but with an extra 700lbs. The mannerisms are the same and the handling is telepathic, predictable and both can easily be steered with the throttle.

Two sides of the same coin

3point8isgreat > Flavien Vidal 06/26/2018 at 09:53

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Perhaps it’s a feeling vs. speed thing? Since they do so well at autoX I’d be surprised if they couldn’t go fast on a tight mountain road. But just because it can go fast there, doesn’t mean it feels natural or at home doing so.

From what I’ve seen of corvettes at AutoX, they always put down stupid fast times, but always sound and look like they’re out of their element. The engines rarely get wound up, the rear tires seem like they’re struggling to put the power down out of some tight turns. It just doesn’t look or sound fast. Which I’m sure is how it could feel. Then you see the time and it just won the whole event without breaking a sweat.

Flavien Vidal > 3point8isgreat 06/26/2018 at 09:59

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A lot of it most likely comes from the massive rear tires that don’T allow much more than a couple degrees of slip angle at moderate speeds (my C4 had 295 in the rear in spit of having only a bit over 300hp. C5Z have also 295 in the rear and C6Z have like 305 with Zr1 at like 335 or something insane) ... but the overly harsh stock suspensions don’t help either. You just don’t want something stupid stiff here, the car bounces and it makes it just unstable and not adapted. The chassis isn’t also anything to compare with cars actually built for this kind of road. I’ve seen C5 break their windows due to how twisty the chassis was . C4 were even worse...

But the cars work on track... They are great there. Just not here. Unless you start to do massive suspension and chassis work.

PartyPooper2012 > random001 06/26/2018 at 10:00

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hmmm... you may be right... 

Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast > Flavien Vidal 06/26/2018 at 10:02

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Wow! Please tell us more you amazing, amazing person. I can’t believe I have the honor of talk to a real life Corvette fan. Thank you so much for blessing us with your very qualified and perfect opinion of cars. An expert like yourself is clearly the one we need to all listen to. I mean you do this for a living right?? How, oh how can we ever have our own opinions again now that you are here to tell what is real about leaf springs.

Thank god we have you to tell us what our opinions are. I’m mean you do t his for a living right??? I heard you do this for a living

We bow down to you and your perfect opinion!! The cars gods have smiled upon us because Flavian does this for a living

Flavien Vidal > Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast 06/26/2018 at 10:09

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So please tell me more about how wrong I am, how right you are and how my opinion isn’t worth shit...

AestheticsInMotion > Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast 06/26/2018 at 10:22

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You might want to do a quick reread

https://oppositelock.kinja.com/oppo-rules-1820335544

Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast > Flavien Vidal 06/26/2018 at 10:29

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Never said I was right about anything (Though Jim was right about leaf springs)

J ust poking fun at how highly you hold your own perspective on subjective opinions.

I mean, you MUST  be right... you do this for a living!!!

Maxima Speed > 3point8isgreat 06/26/2018 at 10:38

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A bit of of input from the autocross perspective. I Auto-crossed my old beater 1997 Maxima one time. The thing held the track road like a champ even in t he wet. The car was heeling over like a ship and I literally had to steer with one hand to keep form being slid out of my seat, however when driving he car to the limits on the road, that car couldn’t handle those kinds of forces at high speed. The car would break lose before hunkering down and heeling over. It would set into a corner but the driving dynamics changed dramatically.  I think it’s fair to say that there are probably many cars which have different handling characteristics at different speeds. 

Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast > AestheticsInMotion 06/26/2018 at 10:41

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Oh no! I hurt someone’s feelings!!

Thank you for reminding me how sensitive we all need to be to the delicate thoughts and minds of others.

Your threatened clampdown has shown me the error of my ways and I will censor my opinion moving forward. 

Flavien Vidal > Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast 06/26/2018 at 10:43

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Well, yes... I know what a great car for Japanese roads is... Once again, driving a shit load of stuff and pushing them to their limits IS MY JOB. Not sure what else to tell you. What you may see as some sort of bragging is kind of irrelevent here. I know more than anyone you’ll most likely ever get to meet when it comes to Japanese mountains roads and sports cars driven on said roads. I’ll give you that even though I’ve driven lots of Corvettes and owned a C4 while I was living in North America, I have yet to drive one here... I have on the other hand  driven those Corvettes on technical enough roads with bad pavements and so on to have quite a good idea at how they’d behave here... And well, they’d sucks... terribly. They sucked then on the roads in question, they’d be worse here.

404 - User No Longer Available > BeaterGT 06/26/2018 at 11:06

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He liked the Solstice over the NC MX-5.

Has an Italian voiceover, I have the English subtitled version on my home PC.

BeaterGT > 404 - User No Longer Available 06/26/2018 at 11:10

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Pretty surprising . A comment like that on this site would set the world ablaze.

My bird IS the word > Wobbles the Mind 06/26/2018 at 11:39

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It also looks like the base vette, but that should still compare favorably to the s2k. Probably not used to cars that size on roads like that.

Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast > Flavien Vidal 06/26/2018 at 12:03

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Ok, got it. Corvettes are cool and you are good at driving . You have a job doing a thing so that means you must be good at it and we should listen to you.

We’ll end it here as the mods are saying I shouldn’t share my opinion of your comments any further. Thanks for your point of view.

Flavien Vidal > Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast 06/26/2018 at 12:16

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Whether I’m “good at driving” or not is not really relevant here... Once again, I have just driven A LOT more cars on A LOT more japanese mountain roads than probably anyone you’ll ever get to meet or talk to, simply because it is what I do for a living ... Combine that with my previous experience with Corvettes while I was living in the US and Canada and yeah, I do believe my opinion on that subject to be slightly more valid than average. Corvettes are great cars on the track... But t hey are not very good in the real world, especially when said world is made of narrow twisty and bumpy roads.

Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast > Flavien Vidal 06/26/2018 at 12:24

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Again, the mods say your opinion is more valid than mine.

Y ou’ve repeatedly made your credentials  very  clear.

Thank you.

Flavien Vidal > Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast 06/26/2018 at 12:39

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I don’t think your opinion to be in any way less valid than mine unless you prove me otherwise... On the other hand your way of delivering it might not be the best.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Flavien Vidal 06/26/2018 at 12:50

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It would be interesting to see what some aftermarket dampers, perhaps different rate springs, and importantly, a roof brace (i f it is a targa car), and a b-pillar cross-brace to tighten the chassis up.

Keep in mind... with the targa cars... they are basically convertibles with a B-pillar and a hatch... the roof skin has some tensile strength, but not THAT much. These sorts of braces were also developed for cars like Supra, engine bay braces for NSX, full underbody bracing for Miata... etc. Even cars that are regarded for their handling... chassis rigidity improvements become available out of some necessity when doing more than regular daily-driver duty.  

random001 > Flavien Vidal 06/26/2018 at 15:01

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I think you’re wrong.

Are Japanese mountain roads different than tight American mountain roads, for some reason?  Are they just not as wide, or is there something different in the way they're built?

Flavien Vidal > random001 06/26/2018 at 20:58

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Very different... a lot twistier than anything in the US. Tail of the dragon included. And when TOTD has nice wide well paved banked corners, Japanese roads are very bumpy, badly paved with debris, running water, “drift stoppers” in corners (very tiny speedbumps that make the whole car vibrate like crazy to prevent people from entiring corners too fast or drift... it doesn’t really work, but they do suck) and so on. I won’t even talk about how having a car that’s 2m wide on a road where it would barely fit to begin with, filled with blind corners after blind corners, would make the whole thing terrible to merely just drive and not even push..
I have driven on and hunt for the nicest driving roads on this planet for the past 10 years, the french Alps don’t even compare with how sketchy Japanese roads can be in the mountains.