Mulling over the Future of Hot Rods

"Josh Welton" (watchtheprettylight) 06/18/2018 at 08:54 • Filed to: Tesla, dodge, demon, hot rod, EV

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Is the dominance of the EV a foregone conclusion? Is the ICE actually going anywhere anyways? What is it that draws us to the sound and the fury of a big block V8 or a high revving small displacement turbo setup? What will the future of hot rodding look like? Mark & I mull over these questions and more:

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CobraJoe > Josh Welton 06/18/2018 at 09:19

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Electric isn’t a forgone conclusion yet, it doesn’t fully replace the ICE due to range and refueling issues. However, there is no other competitor yet. Unless there is a new liquid fuel for internal combustion that has zero emissions, I really doubt that ICE will continue outside of some specialized applications.

Personally, I love internal combustion because of the ridiculousness of it. Lets contain properly timed small explosions to push a piston that acts on a crank to get rotational motion, and then lets do that again a few thousand times a minute!. The fact that it actually works still doesn’t quite compute for me.

But once the hot rodders and aftermarket starts playing around with electric drivetrains, all will be well. It’s already proven that electric motors can be powerful and quick, they just need to be simplified down to the level of a SBC rebuild and paired with a lightweight and stylish body.

gettingoldercarguy > Josh Welton 06/18/2018 at 09:35

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I think ice is going the way of the carburetor when fuel injection entered the automotive world. Electric motors have better density, don’t suffer power loss at altitude, and are less complicated than ice. Once solid state batteries become viable, it’s over. That’ll resolve the weight issue, toxic materials and a host of other issues that people take with electric cars.

I love ice, but that doesn’t prevent me from seeing the writing on the wall.

Amoore100 > CobraJoe 06/18/2018 at 12:00

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Agreed—the fact that internal combustion works is one of the most amazing feats of engineering IMO—who would ever have thought of something so convoluted that works so, so well?

That said, I too am ready for the electric revolution. I was somewhat half heartedly salty about the fact that electric motors are probably the way of the future until I rode in a current generation Nissan Rogue. What an awful machine—rattly four banger, hopeless droning CVT, gutless—making it an electric car would improve it no end. The days of singing straight sixes and burbling eights are over, and I’ll take a smooth, silent electric motor over a vacuum cleaner of a four cylinder any day.

CobraJoe > Amoore100 06/18/2018 at 12:33

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until I rode in a current generation Nissan Rogue

That’s not exactly the pinnacle of ICE design.... but it’s not atypical either. Even in the 60s, in the age of muscle cars and massive V8s, the base engine option was usually a wheezing, under-100hp, I6. Honestly, in terms of power, we’re in the best time right now for internal combustion engines. Even that Rogue can get to 60 faster than a 74 Mustang (though that’s a pretty easy competitor to beat).

I’m pretty sure the “base engine is slow and unrefined” idea is not going to change with the switch to electric power. Once the drive to make electric cars cheaper hits hard, they’ll be as slow and unrefined as the current entry level cheap cars.

Amoore100 > CobraJoe 06/18/2018 at 13:10

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That’s true, but at least the I6's usually had some character and charm unlike the washing machine motors of today. The I4 is certainly more capable, but I’m just saying it offers no tangible benefit over a contemporary electric other than range since it doesn’t really exemplify the “internal combustion experience” if you will. It’s hard to say with electrics—the previous gen Leaf was about as basic as it gets and it was leaps and bounds more pleasant than a Sentra/Versa save for its pathetic range.

CobraJoe > Amoore100 06/18/2018 at 13:49

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Considering that the old I6s had a hard time holding speed up a hill, I’m not sure it was considered “character and charm” back when they were built, and they surely wouldn’t be pleasant to daily drive today. They were the sewing machine motors of their day. The ‘64 Mustang’s base engine was a 170ci I6 that made 101hp and got the 2500 pound car to 60 in roughly 15 seconds. I wouldn’t say that eximplifies the “internal combustion experience” either.

the previous gen Leaf was about as basic as it gets and it was leaps and bounds more pleasant than a Sentra/Versa save for its pathetic range.

There was a huge price difference between the leaf and the electric cars too, a 2010 leaf started at $25k, and a 2010 Versa started under $10k. I have a feeling that the Leaf would feel a lot more like a Versa if it cost $10k brand new.

Amoore100 > CobraJoe 06/18/2018 at 14:02

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But they coughed and smelled and you wouldn’t doubt them for anything else—basically, if you replaced it with an electric motor I’d think many would consider it sacrilege, even if the original powerplant was nothing to cop about.

That’s why I mentioned the Sentra since the Leaf is more like the Sentra hatch that never existed. Not remarkable in any way, but certainly bettered by an electric powertrain despite the limited range.

CobraJoe > Amoore100 06/18/2018 at 14:30

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basically, if you replaced it with an electric motor I’d think many would consider it sacrilege, even if the original powerplant was nothing to cop about.

Pretty sure the people who would consider it sacrilege are viewing the past through rose colored glasses (or at least not willing to hack up a classic). After all, there are probably thousands of examples of I6 to V8 swaps done because of the dislike for the old I6s.

Besides, there are companies out there that make a living on electric conversions for classic vehicles. Granted, there are a lot fewer of those shops than the shops that restore or build ICE classics, but they do exist.

That’s why I mentioned the Sentra since the Leaf is more like the Sentra hatch that never existed. Not remarkable in any way, but certainly bettered by an electric powertrain despite the limited range.

Sentra was still $10k less in base price than the leaf. Current electric setups are far better than any cheapo ICE setup, I’ll completely agree with that. I’m just curious what a $10k-$15k EV will drive like in comparison. Probably very slow, probably a little noisy, probably a little coarser in power delivery.... Basically functional but will leave you wishing you got the more expensive version. That’s what I’m trying to point out with my historical comparison, that the cheap end has been and will always be a bit of a punishment to drive.

Amoore100 > CobraJoe 06/18/2018 at 18:52

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For sure, but I think that a cheap EV will be infinitely nicer and more reasonable than a cheap ICE if only to remove maintenance aspects and fueling requirements etc., not to mention the inherently better NVH from not having reciprocating metal bits. Most electric golf carts are more refined and satisfying than that Rogue was and that’s a very low bar to clear.

I suppose what I mean in regards to those classics is that they were a product of their time and there’s something to be said for that, but in this day and age when electrification is imminently possible there’s increasingly no reason to preserve the mundane and mediocre ICE powerplants. Back then there was no choice, thus obviously they had to make do.

CobraJoe > Amoore100 06/19/2018 at 09:47

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For sure, but I think that a cheap EV will be infinitely nicer and more reasonable than a cheap ICE if only to remove maintenance aspects and fueling requirements etc., not to mention the inherently better NVH from not having reciprocating metal bits. Most electric golf carts are more refined and satisfying than that Rogue was and that’s a very low bar to clear.

It won’t be as different as you think. Maintenance won’t be that different, it wont have oil to change, but all other wear items are exactly the same (Many ICE cars already have sealed transmissions). Fuelling will be more annoying, you’ll have to plug it in every night instead of filling a tank once every other week.

NVH will be inherently better, but modern cheap cars are really not that bad, and a cheap EV will likely have to cut back on insulation and material quality to compete on price.

And I wholly disagree about the electric golf carts. They might be quieter than a Rogue, but they’re examples of everything I’m worried about with a cheap EV. They feel extremely weak, sometimes it’s hard for them to drive up a hill. The motor controllers are incredibly coarse, the accelerator pedal might as well be an on/off switch. Could you imagine how horrible it would be to drive something like that in traffic? No ability to hold a constant slow speed, just clicking the accelerator pedal on.... off... on... off... And then there’s trying to get up to speed on an on ramp. A current Leaf is 2 seconds faster to 60 than a Versa, but costs twice as much. How slow will a $15k EV be in comparison to the gasoline powered Versa?

Point is, cheap cars will always be horrible to drive. Electric power is not going to change that.

but in this day and age when electrification is imminently possible there’s increasingly no reason to preserve the mundane and mediocre ICE powerplants. Back then there was no choice, thus obviously they had to make do.

I don’t disagree though, once EVs get cheap and the infrastructure can prevent range issues, there really isn’t a reason to preserve the bottom of the barrel ICE drivetrains. However, we are a long way from that possibility. EVs are currently not affordable, and neither have they solved the range problem. We are still making do with the ICE drivetrains we have.

Amoore100 > CobraJoe 06/19/2018 at 10:07

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I guess, but already look at the Versa vs. a base, base Yugo from decades before. Fuel injection, quality control, etc. have all made it so much nicer and there’s no reason that electrification can’t be that same next step like fuel injection was in making cars so much more reliable and capable. Keep in mind too that golf carts simply tout the benefits of electrification sans the engineering prowess of actual automotive manufacturers which are obviously more capable when it comes to mass market vehicles.

It’s just so eye opening that we’re at the stage where this is actually possible. Essentially what I realized was that Nissan could rip out the Rogue powertrain and put the Leaf one in and I wouldn’t give a toss. It didn’t feel like our V50 where I would bemoan the lack of a five cylinder growl, or our XC70 where I’d miss the little turbo whistle, or our V70 with its throaty burble, or even our Odyssey which sings when it hits VTEC around the upper 5000’s. Basically, none of the Rogue’s personality would be lost by losing its ICE and thus I realized that perhaps the electric motor revolution isn’t so bad after all.

CobraJoe > Amoore100 06/19/2018 at 10:59

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I believe that a full attempt by an auto manufacturer would result in a much better driving vehicle than a golf cart, but that golf cart is a great example of what I’m worried about.

Essentially what I realized was that Nissan could rip out the Rogue powertrain and put the Leaf one in and I wouldn’t give a toss.

That feeling shouldn’t be limited to new vehicles, there are plenty of older cars that wouldn’t miss their internal combustion engines either. Replace the 302 in the ‘80s Grand Marquis my parents had when I was a kid with an electric drivetrain with similar power, and you really wouldn’t notice a difference. Replace the underpowered I4 in the ‘79 Mustang that was my first car with an electric drivetrain, and it probably would have made it significantly faster.

Not every engine is a masterpiece, and not every car provides a memorable experience. (Though I do agree that the V50 is a great little wagon.)

Amoore100 > CobraJoe 06/19/2018 at 13:45

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I suppose that’s true—I’ve just been blessed with ordinary cars with extraordinary engines so it took quite some finding to discover a vehicle whose powertrain really didn’t add anything to the experience. They’re more common that I realize, I guess; we’re currently renting a Sienna on vacation here in South Dakota and it really makes a 296 hp direct injection V6 be completely irrelevant and soulless which is saying something when our 255 hp J-series Honda is a raucous and fizzy little machine.  

CobraJoe > Amoore100 06/19/2018 at 14:15

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Something I learned a while back: Horsepower ratings mean almost nothing when it comes to how fun a car is to drive. To me, a quick responding throttle and a fat torque curve matter a lot more than a few more horsepower. Add in a fairly lightweight body and a low seat position, and you get a responsive and tossable car that feels a lot faster than it is.

That’s why I’m somewhat interested in the electric powered revolution. An electric motor is a great option to provide a fat torque curve and instantaneous response.