I got into an argument with dark siders. 

"bob and john" (bobandjohn) 04/26/2018 at 12:55 • Filed to: None

2

51

Jesus fucking christ. these guys are worse then religious nuts.


“show me technical proof that its more unsafe”

HOW THE FUCK IS THIS NOT PROOF?! LOK HOW LITTLE RUBBER HE IS RIDING ON.


*sigh*

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > bob and john 04/26/2018 at 13:01

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Darksiders? Dudes who run car tires on bikes?

BigBlock440 > bob and john 04/26/2018 at 13:03

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Stand it back up and then compare...

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > bob and john 04/26/2018 at 13:04

3

I didn’t know this was a thing. Who would put a car tire on a motorcycle?

Spanfeller is a twat > bob and john 04/26/2018 at 13:04

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Oh really? I’ll give you technical data... Ask them if they also walk like this:

Spanfeller is a twat > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 04/26/2018 at 13:05

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cheaper, and bro science.

Spanfeller is a twat > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 04/26/2018 at 13:05

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No, they’re only idiots.

DucST3-Red-1Liter-Standing-By > bob and john 04/26/2018 at 13:06

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Good lord. I keep thinking I am not than intelligent, then I see shit like this...

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > bob and john 04/26/2018 at 13:06

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http://ridermagazine.com/2016/05/20/tales-from-the-dark-side-putting-car-tires-on-motorcycles/

random001 > bob and john 04/26/2018 at 13:07

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OMG pilot super sports on a bike! Amazing! Heh.

Urambo Tauro > bob and john 04/26/2018 at 13:07

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But free alignments, bro!

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > bob and john 04/26/2018 at 13:09

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That HAS to handle like shit right?

Future next gen S2000 owner > bob and john 04/26/2018 at 13:11

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“show me technical proof that its more unsafe”

The coefficient of friction on a motorcycle tire does not decrease as the tire experiences more lean angle, if anything most dual compound tires have higher coefficients as the tire rolls over. Motorcycle tires are designed with less shoulder and for the loads associated with lean angle. Car tire sidewalls have a lower coefficient of friction and are not designed to be in contact with the ground. Motorcycle riders who use car tires are loading the tire in ways it is not meant to be used.

Can you do it? Sure. Will it fail? Maybe. Is it more unsafe? Yes.

Conversely, have them prove it is safer. If they can’t prove it is safer then the opposite must be true, is it less safe.

Edit: It also affects the roll rate as the moment required to initiate a lean angle is higher. This results in higher rotational inertia and longer response timese when executing emergency turns - less safe. For example, how hard is it to roll a ball relative to tipping a box on it’s side.

I can draw a diagram if it helps.

Edit #2: Contact area has relatively little to do with grip. Friction is independent of area. This falls apart when you move away from the theory and into the real world. Velocity and area do play a roll but not as much as force.

Biggus Dickus (RevsBro) > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 04/26/2018 at 13:13

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Turn in would be total garbage.

vondon302 > bob and john 04/26/2018 at 13:14

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I didn’t even know this was a thing and a very dumb thing at that.

atfsgeoff > bob and john 04/26/2018 at 13:18

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I am not a darksider, but I don’t condemn those who ride on car tires. It’s their bike, their life. Millions of miles have been put on car tires mounted on motorcycles and very few failures of any sort.

The bottom line is that while, yes, the squared-off profile affects turn-in feel, the more robust construction and load bearing capabilities of a car tire make it very safe overall for motorcycle use. Cornering traction is still well above what’s required to stick even at the maximum lean angle of the huge bikes that most darksiders roll on (Goldwings, Harley full dressers, etc). It looks a little funny but there’s no compelling evidence that it’s actually less safe than a motorcycle-specific tire, particularly for rear wheel use.

fintail > bob and john 04/26/2018 at 13:18

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By the looks of it, it might weigh as much as a car.

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 04/26/2018 at 13:22

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Dude in my office

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > bob and john 04/26/2018 at 13:23

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A guy in my office did this. idiot, I assure you

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > bob and john 04/26/2018 at 13:23

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All I saw was the picture and I thought, Are you kidding? I am NOT a motorcycle guy, but I don’t need to be one to know a crazyperson when I see one and my only concern is whose day he will ruin when he crashes and how much he will cause my insurance premiums to rise.

Chariotoflove > bob and john 04/26/2018 at 13:25

3

What’s a darksider? Hold on, brb...

...oh my. People do that? How have we survived as a species this long?

Wacko > DucST3-Red-1Liter-Standing-By 04/26/2018 at 13:25

3

seeing this doof must make you feel like Einstein

cmill189 - sans Volvo > bob and john 04/26/2018 at 13:28

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I always have thought the cost argument around using car tires was weird. High mileage cruiser tires (so pretty much all cruiser tires) are NOT expensive. Most of these people are already riding a toy and the costs surrounding that are basically all a waste. It’s just odd to save a little bit of money on something so vital.

I wonder how disconcerting it must feel to lean over on one of these. I bought a bike with sport bike tires that were pretty squared off and it was very unnerving to me. But at least once I got past the initial edge there was still some actual tire to lean on, not the goddamn sidewall.

feather-throttle-not-hair > bob and john 04/26/2018 at 13:29

2

Okay, but its got to be smarter than running motorcycle tires on your car right?

Spanfeller is a twat > Future next gen S2000 owner 04/26/2018 at 13:30

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Are you sure those people know what you’re talking about?

Future next gen S2000 owner > Spanfeller is a twat 04/26/2018 at 13:33

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I’m quite sure they don’t.

CobraJoe > feather-throttle-not-hair 04/26/2018 at 13:37

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Depends on the suspension.

Tekamul > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 04/26/2018 at 13:38

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You take a bike that already handles bad, then have it ‘roll up’ in a turn, and ride on just the shoulder.

Granted, because they already handle bad, people don’t tend to turn at anything near the speed limit, but still, it’s making a bad situation worse, just to save a buck after buying a $20k bagger.

bob and john > Future next gen S2000 owner 04/26/2018 at 13:45

5

best part: guy says he works at good year.

I replied: dude, working the recieving dock at good year doesnt mean you know shit about tires.

DucST3-Red-1Liter-Standing-By > Wacko 04/26/2018 at 13:45

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E=mc^2 bitches

bob and john > DucST3-Red-1Liter-Standing-By 04/26/2018 at 13:50

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right? Some days I do genuinely feel like an idiot for droppping out of engineering as i couldnt cut it.

then I see shit like this..and I cant fucking wrap my mind around it.

Future next gen S2000 owner > bob and john 04/26/2018 at 14:01

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Number of people working at good year > number of tire engineers at good year

functionoverfashion > bob and john 04/26/2018 at 14:02

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better mismatch of vehicle and tire:

Mercedes Streeter > bob and john 04/26/2018 at 14:03

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“show me technical proof that its more unsafe”

*Google searches “motorcycle accident”*

crowmolly > bob and john 04/26/2018 at 14:09

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So are these the equivalent of people that fill their Vettes and GT500s with regular gas?

Future next gen S2000 owner > atfsgeoff 04/26/2018 at 14:32

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!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

You can’t make that claim when you load a tire in a manner that it was never designed to handle.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > Future next gen S2000 owner 04/26/2018 at 14:33

1

I can draw a diagram  picture if it helps.

Diagram sounds too sciencey

bhtooefr > bob and john 04/26/2018 at 14:36

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Also, it’s Goodyear. They’re known for putting tires in applications they’re not designed for with deadly results.

https://jalopnik.com/how-goodyear-hid-evidence-of-the-worst-tire-made-in-his-1822200424

https://jalopnik.com/how-goodyear-destroyed-the-alleged-smoking-gun-on-the-w-1823155947

https://jalopnik.com/goodyear-knew-of-dangerous-rv-tire-failures-for-over-20-1824997252

https://jalopnik.com/goodyear-denies-allegations-that-rv-tire-is-defective-1825029843

https://jalopnik.com/goodyear-asked-a-judge-to-call-jalopnik-and-request-we-1825120219

https://jalopnik.com/goodyear-senior-execs-okd-settlements-acknowledging-its-1825333123

atfsgeoff > Future next gen S2000 owner 04/26/2018 at 14:58

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Sure I can. Design and practice are two completely separate things, and just because something wasn’t designed to do A, doesn’t mean it’s not good at doing A. Is a hydraulic press designed to crush aluminum cans? No, but it’s really good at it anyway.

The sidewall loading under heavy lean angles is mostly compressive, with the grip being provided by the edge of the tread, the same area that’s being most heavily loaded on the outside tire on a car under hard cornering but in the opposing direction.

Also, “very safe” doesn’t mean “safer than a dedicated motorcycle tire.” It might very well be slightly less safe, if anyone ever starts compiling statistics on tire types equipped to motorcycles involved in accidents where tire failure or lack of traction contributed to the crash. But there are enough ultra distance riders rolling on them all the time that if they were significantly less safe than motorcycle tires, the interwebs would be abuzz with anecdotes about it.

AntiSpeed > Future next gen S2000 owner 04/26/2018 at 15:06

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Contact area has relatively little to do with grip. Friction is independent of area.

Whoa whoa whoa, are you saying that the size of the contact patch has little effect on grip level? Because that’s the opposite of everything I was ever taught.

scoob > CobraJoe 04/26/2018 at 15:12

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#STANCEWORKS #LOWLIFE #BAGGED #SLAMMED #DAILYDRIVEN

Future next gen S2000 owner > AntiSpeed 04/26/2018 at 15:23

1

Yes and no. This is all generally speaking.

1st: Grip is friction. When accounting for friction in most physics classes area is neglected. When you pull a box along the carpet, the force required to pull the box is directly related to the weight of the box. Get a big box and a shoe box, load them up with the same weight, pull them and you’ll see my point. In this case the contact patch - size of the box - doesn’t really matter.

The formula for force is F=mu*N, where mu is the coefficient of friction and N is the normal force. Area is no where to be seen. Mu changes depending on static and kinetic conditions - moving and not moving.

However, is reality it breaks down a bit. Think about this, when applying the same force to your brakes, your tires have to slow down some before they lock up. The force applied by the brakes doesn’t change but the friction between the pad and rotor vary with velocity.

Depending on the case, the shape of the contact area will change the friction coefficient. Wider tires have higher friction in lateral directions when everything else is held constant. It’s why race cars run tires as wide as possible, this is at the detriment of rolling resistance. Narrower tires have lower rolling resistance. Part of running wider tires is due to side wall deflection and roll-over issues. Wide, short tires won’t roll over as much. The sidewall isn’t where grip lives. This changes depending on the surfaces, see rally snow tires.

My point is, friction is simple when things move slowly and for most everyday situations. It get’s vastly more complicated when velocities increase and loading scenarios get more complex.

Monkey B > bob and john 04/26/2018 at 15:45

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those guys are lunatics. They right and there’s nothing...NOTHING you can offer unless you agree. I assume all of them voted for Trump.

shop-teacher > bob and john 04/26/2018 at 15:55

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I had no idea this was a thing.

Cash Rewards > AntiSpeed 04/26/2018 at 15:58

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Force friction =friction coefficient*force normal (weight). No area in that equation. A tire is rolling, though, so I believe that’s a bit different.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > bob and john 04/26/2018 at 15:59

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Well you know, Goodyear is very highly regarded for their full line of quality motorcycle tires and their corporate culture is such that every employee knows as much as the engineers designing the tires.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Biggus Dickus (RevsBro) 04/26/2018 at 16:02

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What turn in?

Biggus Dickus (RevsBro) > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 04/26/2018 at 16:18

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Being knocked over

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Biggus Dickus (RevsBro) 04/26/2018 at 17:19

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Turn in with worn out motorcycle tires is bad enough, I can’t imagine what the hell must be wrong with these people.

feather-throttle-not-hair > CobraJoe 04/26/2018 at 18:49

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Touche sir.

The Compromiser > bob and john 04/26/2018 at 21:10

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Now, go find a double darksider. Rear tire on the front and IIRC backwards. I know guys who swear by it. I don’t get it. I can’t get over much, but I know I want as much tire contact as possible.

NotaTireEngineer > Future next gen S2000 owner 04/27/2018 at 09:13

0

Friction does have something to do with contact area. The coefficient of friction for rubber decreases as contact pressure increases. Generally to maximize grip you want to disperse the vertical load over as much footprint area and as evenly as possible. There is a reason racers run big slicks.

That said, I’d not want to ride a motorcycle with a car tire on it. You’re going to have a pretty harsh transition up onto the shoulder and best case scenario, sidewall compound isn’t going to grip or wear nearly as well as a tread compound.