Darren Ellisor

"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn) 04/19/2018 at 13:23 • Filed to: Planelopnik

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There is a lot of ink being spilled about SWA 1380 captain Tammy Jo Shults, and deservedly so. But let’s not forget that there were two pilots in the cockpit, that day and every day. Along with Capt. Shults was First Officer Darren Ellisor, who was every bit as responsible for the safe landing as the captain. Little has been published about FO Ellisor, beyond the fact that he is a former USAF pilot who hails from League City, Texas. Kudos to the entire crew, both cockpit and cabin, for a safe landing.

Ash78, voting early and often > ttyymmnn 04/19/2018 at 13:31

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Wow, two military vet pilots on one plane. They’re allegedly getting harder to find these days, since so many of them come up through the ranks of the regional commuter carriers.

For Sweden > ttyymmnn 04/19/2018 at 13:44

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Also note that Southwest is (rightfully) praising the pilots, but we know little to nothing about the maintenance crew.

AuthiCooper1300 > For Sweden 04/19/2018 at 13:48

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Is it at all easy to detect a crack in its early stages? Or do they develop extremely rapidly (due to extra load, stress risers, material defect, whatever)? Or both scenarios are actually possible?

My citroen won't start > ttyymmnn 04/19/2018 at 13:49

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Southwest and the media keep praising captain Tammy Jo Shults but they also forget that she was only flying that plane thanks to our sky boy Alberto Santos-Dumont who invented the airplane

For Sweden > AuthiCooper1300 04/19/2018 at 13:49

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It’s supposed to be easy enough to detect cracks. Either Southwest made a mistake, and the procedures still work, or Southwest followed procedures and still missed the crack, making the procedures trash.

AuthiCooper1300 > For Sweden 04/19/2018 at 13:52

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Thanks. Another question, if you don’t mind:

Procedures for cracks detection in critical assemblies are set in stone - and everybody has to follow exactly the same detailed hymn sheet, so to speak – or there is a certain amount of flexibility, guideline interpretation, etc?

For Sweden > AuthiCooper1300 04/19/2018 at 13:58

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We all have deadlines, people don’t show up for shifts, maybe you’re going on vacation tomorrow, etc. Mechanics and inspectors can under-perform at work, just like anyone else.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > ttyymmnn 04/19/2018 at 13:58

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RHIP. Normally, the captain is named when something bad happens. At some point in the future, whenever Captain Shults is called upon to comment on the experience, she will probably make a point of calling out the other crew members.

I read in the onboard magazine Herb Kelleher’s column where he bragged about all of the takeoff and landing cycles and how proficient that made the pilots. I mentioned this to Todd and he couldn’t let it go, because he felt he was just as good. Later, after the accident where the 6-year-old was killed in Chicago, my good friend the former P-3 test driver said that SWA pilots were accustomed to landing more often in warm, dry places and lacked proficiency on wintry runways.

I flew recently on UAL on a buddy pass from Jona and the pilot was flying very precisely, very crisp on the approach. The pilot was a woman who said she’d been flying for 40 years and started out driving C-130s in the Marine Corps. I regret not asking her for an email address so I could talk more with her about flying. That lady was badass. C-130 is perhaps my favorite military aircraft. And the C-135...

WilliamsSW > My citroen won't start 04/19/2018 at 13:58

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Lies! Everyone knows that this was the first airplane:

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > Ash78, voting early and often 04/19/2018 at 13:59

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I was still of the understanding that most commercial pilots start out in the military, start their commercial careers with the regionals/commuters, then end up on the major carriers later in their careers, which is why they’re almost always well into their 40s or beyond by the time they are flying the big commercial jets.

I had a neighbor that is a pilot and he said that you need a lot of experience to move up to the big commercial carriers. He also said that the vast majority of pilots he worked with obtained most of their hours flying military transport planes. He was a very rare privately trained pilot that obtained most of his twin engine hours to get into the small regional carriers by flying some tiny oddball twin-engine plane. You have to grow up wealthy and really love doing it to pursue it as a career, and considering how much they have to spend to get the experience, their salaries are really not that great.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Ash78, voting early and often 04/19/2018 at 14:00

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Hard to know what to believe. The story I heard was that the military couldn’t retain pilots because they all wanted to go fly for airlines. I’d guess that the military lifestyle is demanding and uncomfortable and does little to aid in retention.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > ttyymmnn 04/19/2018 at 14:05

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People make a huge deal out of this and it scares the average person like terrorists, but the chance of dying like this is so incredibly low that you shouldn’t even contemplate it at all. Just this airline has moved billions of passengers without a single fatality before this.

You’re more likely to die getting out of bed in the morning on any single random morning of your life. You’re more likely to die driving on any single random day of your life. It’s less likely than getting hit by lightning and far less likely than hitting a lottery jackpot...

Mercedes Streeter > For Sweden 04/19/2018 at 14:07

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...or Southwest followed procedures and still missed the crack, making the procedures trash.

Or sometimes even manufacturing defects and/or impurities. :o

Alfalfa > ttyymmnn 04/19/2018 at 14:15

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Dude’s last name sounds like it’s straight out of a Tolkien novel.

bhtooefr > For Sweden 04/19/2018 at 14:28

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Or option C, they made a mistake, but they would’ve missed the crack even if they hadn’t.

WilliamsSW > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 04/19/2018 at 14:28

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I’m sure you’re right about Captain Shults.

On SWA, though, they’ve had a hub at Midway for a long, long time, and that airport is no picnic when the weather is lousy, with short runways, no ILS when landing on 22L, houses right next door, etc. Plus they have been operating throughout the US for a long time.

unclevanos (Ovaltine Jenkins) > For Sweden 04/19/2018 at 14:33

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Would you be able to use magnaflux to test for cracks or are those blades composites?

McMike > For Sweden 04/19/2018 at 14:37

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Not a single person has praised the airlines for getting all the bags to the destination. It was a surprise two-hopper, STILL got them all to Dallas.

I flew Southwest direct from DIA to IAD back in Dec, and they couldn’t even get all our bags there.

For Sweden > McMike 04/19/2018 at 14:38

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^McMike with the true story.

WilliamsSW > McMike 04/19/2018 at 15:08

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This is ridiculous - yet another story swept under the rug by the MSM bias because it doesn’t fit their narrative

Ash78, voting early and often > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 04/19/2018 at 15:13

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I only personally know two commercial pilots and both came out of college 15-20 years ago, spent 5-7 years of misery with regionals, and then moved up to Southwest and Delta. But from what they describe, that’s the overwhelming norm now. Colleges are now providing more programs to help fill the need that the military used to.

A generation ago when Korea and Vietnam-era pilots were still below the mandatory retirement age, you could basically guarantee that the captain (at least) was a vet. But as budget cuts and military conflicts and pilots wound down, people started going after commercial airline jobs as an end unto themselves, so it was no longer just a “safety net” for retired military.

I wish I knew a great source for more detailed stats, but all I can find is vague echos of the above trends...

Ash78, voting early and often > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 04/19/2018 at 15:16

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Apparently the commitment to stay in the military (as a pilot) is so long now, it’s not as appealing as it used to be. Airline salaries can be good, but it’s often a long path due to weird union/seniority rules that are still in place from the legacy carriers.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > WilliamsSW 04/19/2018 at 15:27

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That makes sense. I was mainly sharing some anecdotes.

WilliamsSW > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 04/19/2018 at 15:37

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Yeah - it’s always interesting to hear what pilots have to say. I’ve been lucky enough to sit next to a few, and heard some great stories.

McMike > WilliamsSW 04/19/2018 at 15:38

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Those bags don’t load themselves. People need to know that.

People also forget that these bags aren’t even paying customers, so this is charity work by the handlers.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > WilliamsSW 04/19/2018 at 15:45

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I almost always chat them up when I fly. It takes a minute to convince them that I know a bit and that I’m not just some chatty chump. Then they open up.

someassemblyrequired > ttyymmnn 04/19/2018 at 15:58

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Safe flying is always a team effort. If you hear a talk by one of “hero” pilots like Sully or Al Haynes, they spend a lot of time talking about how the other folks in the cockpit, the flight attendants, and ATC deserve a lot of credit for saving lives.

WilliamsSW > McMike 04/19/2018 at 16:08

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Maybe Southwest should detain and deport these bags, like I assume United does.

ttyymmnn > WilliamsSW 04/19/2018 at 16:19

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God, I love this place....

ttyymmnn > My citroen won't start 04/19/2018 at 16:19

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Fake news!

WilliamsSW > ttyymmnn 04/19/2018 at 16:20

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Beats working! !

ttyymmnn > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 04/19/2018 at 16:22

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That was my experience talking to the F-35 driver at an air show. When I started asking intelligent questions other than, “How many bombs does it hold?” we ended up having a long and fascinating conversation about his aircraft, military doctrine in the 21st century, the history of warfare, etc. Great chat and, I hope, the best one he had that day.

ttyymmnn > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 04/19/2018 at 16:24

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I watched a series about aviation safety, and they ended with this factoid: If you got on a commercial airline every day, at random, it would be 100 years* before you are statistically likely to be involved in an accident. And then, the odds are that you would survive.

*It may have been 200 years. I don’t remember exactly.

ttyymmnn > Alfalfa 04/19/2018 at 16:25

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“Elessar” was the name given to Aragorn when he was crowned King of Middle Earth. So, yeah.

ttyymmnn > someassemblyrequired 04/19/2018 at 16:30

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Indeed. No way in hell Al Haynes (or anybody) could have put that DC-10 down by himself. Well, he could have, but nobody would have walked away.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > ttyymmnn 04/19/2018 at 16:32

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It wouldn’t have surprised me if the number of years was even larger, that’s how incredibly safe commercial air travel is.

ttyymmnn > Ash78, voting early and often 04/19/2018 at 16:33

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I think there are also generally fewer pilots in the military these days.

McMike > WilliamsSW 04/19/2018 at 17:21

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They detained one of mine. The rest of them were very worried.

And yes, I sent all of these to SW and DIA.

WilliamsSW > McMike 04/19/2018 at 17:29

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Such a heartwarming story with a happy ending

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > ttyymmnn 04/19/2018 at 17:47

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I’m sure it was. I’ve been kicking myself for not asking that UAL pilot for her email. She was cool. Very crisp inputs.

Jayhawk Jake > ttyymmnn 04/20/2018 at 08:11

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I feel like we all should stop acting like pilots are heroes just for doing their jobs.

If we call these pilots heroes, and put them in some class above all the other pilots out there, then we’re saying we assume MOST pilots would crack under pressure, crash, and kill everyone in any minor or major emergency.

Yes, what happened to this flight looks scary. But an engine out and loss of pressurization is really a pretty minor emergency. Any pilot is trained to handle that situation, and it’s not unreasonable to assume that on every flight with any crew the same outcome would have occurred.

I’m not saying the pilot and crew don’t deserve gratitude and a good annual review from the airline, but the public reception of pilots in a relatively minor emergency is just crazy to me.

ttyymmnn > Jayhawk Jake 04/20/2018 at 08:39

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I agree to all of this. I wasn’t trying to glorify anything, just give credit where it’s due. Had it not been for the freak nature of the passenger’s death, this whole thing would have been forgotten by the next day. As another commenter pointed out, the hyperbolic response by the press only serves to create more fear in the traveling public.

Although, it must also be pointed out that press coverage of Knute Rockne’s death led to significant changes in the way commercial air travel was run. Sometimes, shining a light on bad practices is the only thing that gets them changed. It will be interesting to see who dropped the ball here: SWA, CFM, Boeing, or the FAA.