"Wobbles the Mind" (wobblesthemind)
04/11/2018 at 06:52 • Filed to: Branding
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"Wobbles the Mind" (wobblesthemind)
04/11/2018 at 06:52 • Filed to: Branding | 3
| 24 |
The C-HR was definitely intented to be a soft-continuation of the Celica nameplate. It was originally billed as the next major and iconic Scion model when the concept debuted back in 2014 and 2015. The car’s existence makes a lot of sense once you see it as a replacement/successor to the tC for a living Scion brand.
The Intent of Celica helps explain why Toyota designed a coupe (as in 2-door) appearance and FWD-only small crossover with manufactired hype. It was expected to grab the tC market while stealing Kia Soul buyers. That’s why Toyota didn’t expect such a sales backlash for not offering AWD.
A Scion badge would make it a Korean tall hatch competitor. The problem arises from the Toyota badge forcing the car to be directly against Honda HR-V and even Buick Encore (that’s why XLE subbranding is utilized). That badge switch completely destroys the perception of value and won’t meet consumer/reviewer expectations.
Toyota was expecting Scion level volume. They never accounted for the C-HR handling Toyota level volume. The Scion brand was killed quietly like a goldfish and now Toyota has nothing to ease the stress of RAV4 production (which was close to Ram P/U Series sales when I looked a while back).
The C-HR will never come close to the sales numbers a REAL Toyota subcompact crossover would account for. I would not be surprised in the slightest when a Toyota CUV sized between the C-HR and RAV4 appears within the next 18 months and breaks 100,000 sales within the 9 months after release.
I think Mitsubishi got word that this was going to be called something like, “Celica HR / Celica X,” and why they thought the Eclipse Cross (EclipXe) name would be on trend. You have to cash in on the equity of an established nameplate when the product itself may not have enough on it’s own to be competirive in the market.
Automakers know that the FWD 2-door coupe and hatch are dead and that subcompact hatchbacks without cladding won’t last another 3 years in the US. Tiny crossovers are the way and sporty will always be trendy. Now is the time for automakers to claim a spot at the top of a non-existent segment poised to take off like a part-time employee the weekend after they get their tax refund.
This is why the Juke was marketed so furiously to the point of having all the Nissan trims plus Nismo/Nismo RS/R. This is why the Kia Soul became a CUV overnight with its midcycle refresh (making it the best selling Subcompact CUV in the US that year when the HR-V and CX-3 just came out). It’s why Toyota would want to call the C-HR the Celica HR and race it. Heck, these are all the reasons an Eclipse Cross would get approved and why a Honda X2000 could replace the Fit in the US.
In fact...
*Cue transition into bonus post*
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I will bet you all that Subaru will offer a utility below the Crosstrek and it will be FWD-standard. Do you all know the business case for why Subaru would build the BRZ?
Subaru didnt need a performance halo car. The BRZ didn’t introduce any tech, not even EyeSight which has made Subaru the new Volvo when it comes to perceived safety. The BRZ wasnt limited or even requested by anyone, so why would Subaru agree to build a sportscar that isn’t even a flagship? Wouldn’t a Forester STI or WRXtrek be more profitable? Not even close, kin!
The BRZ exists in order to get people accepting the idea of a 2WD Subaru. Continuing the nameplate one more generation so that they can sell it next to 2WD Imprezas and the entire utility range gives the complete change of the core dynamic of the brand validity.
If Subaru can start charging for their AWD system then they can keep competitive base pricing while enjoying an extra 5-10% profit margin on the exact same cars. Why make $3,000 off of 8,000 cars when you can make $1,000 off of 400,000 every year in the US?
*That’s $24,000,000 over a model run versus $400,000,000 for the lifetime of a brand. All by making you buy what is already standard.*
That opportunity makes the BRZ a worthwhile investment to continue into another generation but not worthwhile when it comes to developing a range of powertrains and altering production. Spend the minimum, yeild the maximum. Just like education...though in the US, it’s the administration living that, not the students.
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farscythe - makin da cawfee!
> Wobbles the Mind
04/11/2018 at 06:56 |
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huh... never knew chr was supposed to have anything to do with celica...
i kinda like the over designed wierdos.... but thats no celica.. (baaaaah humbug)
HondoyotaE38: A Japanese and German Collab...wait a minute
> Wobbles the Mind
04/11/2018 at 07:01 |
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Ugh. Automakers piss me off.
Which is why I want to start my own company after I’m done with school um what no you didn’t hear that from me
interstate366, now In The Industry
> Wobbles the Mind
04/11/2018 at 07:14 |
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Nauraushaun
> Wobbles the Mind
04/11/2018 at 07:58 |
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Celica High Rider.
I was okay with that. So much better than Eclipse. It’s a throwback without being something it’s not.
Until I saw the pic of it pretending to be a racecar
Fuck that. Fuck this world.
BJ
> Wobbles the Mind
04/11/2018 at 09:13 |
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Interesting analysis on the 2wd Subaru... it seems almost too diabolical to be true. Maybe they started out thinking they could expand the brand appeal and offer something different to their customers, and then only later saw the value of having a non-awd model?
In any case, I’m curious - in a morbid way- to see what a compact/sub-compact fwd-only Subaru CUV looks like.
fintail
> Wobbles the Mind
04/11/2018 at 09:31 |
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Soul is a CUV?
KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time
> HondoyotaE38: A Japanese and German Collab...wait a minute
04/11/2018 at 09:44 |
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You should start a company that makes exclusively high-end electric cars and name if after a famous scientist related to electricit...Oh wait.
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KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time
> fintail
04/11/2018 at 09:45 |
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C ute U nassuming V ehicle. It’s the automotive equivalent of a hamster.
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fintail
> KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time
04/11/2018 at 09:47 |
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Aha, that makes sense, good one. I don’t mind the Soul either, it is unpretentious and useful.
Carbon Fiber Sasquatch
> Nauraushaun
04/11/2018 at 10:11 |
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https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/874560/toyota-chr-car-SUV-r-tuned-Porsche-911-2017
It’s not as pretend as you think.
Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo
> Wobbles the Mind
04/11/2018 at 10:27 |
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Truthy moment: I did not realize until just now that the Toyota C-HR and the Honda H-RV were different cars
DrunkMike
> Wobbles the Mind
04/11/2018 at 11:10 |
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!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
Whaaat? What equity? The Celica hasn’t been an established nameplate in the ‘States.. ever? And certainly not in cultured world since 1996. Get our of here with that...
gmctavish needs more space
> Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo
04/11/2018 at 11:36 |
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Every time I see one (which is way more often than I’d like), I have a hard time telling which is which. I judge the person driving it equally anyways, so it doesn’t really matter.
random001
> Wobbles the Mind
04/11/2018 at 11:41 |
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Youve made it, Wobs. This showed up in my Google news feed.
HammerheadFistpunch
> Wobbles the Mind
04/11/2018 at 11:53 |
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If Toyota really wanted some of that sweet Soul money they should have probably not killed off the Xb. The reason the Soul sells well its because its a no nonsense, reliable and extremely practical giant hatch. It sells to people who buy cars as appliances...people who see the value of owning a tiny box truck for people.
Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer
> BJ
04/11/2018 at 13:00 |
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My guess is that they could well be RWD only, since their AWD system is longitudinal. It would mean less development compared to fitting two entirely different drivetrains to 2WD and AWD versions.
I’m OK with this.
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BJ
> Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer
04/11/2018 at 13:28 |
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Hmm, makes sense from a technical standpoint. But would it make sense from a commercial standpoint to try to sell a RWD subcompact in a sea of FWD cars (because everything is FWD)? I reckon most drivers today have never tried RWD and wouldn’t know how to handle it - this could end up being Subaru’s equivalent of “unintended acceleration”.
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Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer
> BJ
04/11/2018 at 13:52 |
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Counterpoint:
- Those who don’t care will probably never find out because (a) it’s a car and does car things, if I like it who cares what the specs are, and (b) traction control is enough to cover up the differences and these people aren’t going to turn it off.
- Those who DO care tend to prefer RWD, could be an effective selling feature.
Between the disinterest of the average buyer, and the extra interest from anyone who has any interest in cars whatsoever, and the money saved by not developing a brand new drivetrain to run side by side with what they have, I think it would make sense commercially.
And while they COULD switch to a FWD-based AWD system, remember their two big marketing points are Symmetrical AWD and lower CoG from the boxer engine. In changing to FWD-based AWD, unless you essentially re-invent the wheel with some pretty complex and pricey parts, you’re throwing at least one of those out the window—probably both. You might say that it’s still going to be lower CoG than an inline engine... I’m not so sure about that. I’d imagine that because of the extra engine width, to accommodate a transaxle with a flat engine you would have to have one directly on top of the other, unlike an inline or V where you can put them kind of side by side. And I don’t see how you can get symmetrical power flow WITHOUT stacking engine and transmission, so there’s that.
TL;DR I think it’s commercially viable
BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
> Wobbles the Mind
04/11/2018 at 13:52 |
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Are we sure it is Celica, seems more like Corolla to me... I got that vibe from Scion tC, also... not really Celica successor, more like Corolla variant.
bhtooefr
> Wobbles the Mind
04/11/2018 at 14:06 |
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I wouldn’t expect something between the C-HR and RAV4, but maybe a new powertrain for the C-HR? The platform supports mechanical AWD, it’s available with it with the 1.2T in Europe.
The trick is to avoid stepping on the Lexus UX’s toes, though. (The Lexus UX, FWIW, is already a C-HR with new powertrains.)
FTTOHG Has Moved to https://opposite-lock.com
> Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer
04/11/2018 at 15:57 |
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The Subaru Global Platform can be FWD. They actually sell an FWD Impreza sedan with the CVT in Japan right now. Apparently it just drops the driveshafts, center diff, rear diff and real half shafts. About $2,000 cheaper.
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Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer
> FTTOHG Has Moved to https://opposite-lock.com
04/11/2018 at 16:06 |
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Boggles the mind why they wouldn’t pull the front section out instead for better balance. Heck, it would be easier for their dealers too.
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Nauraushaun
> Carbon Fiber Sasquatch
04/12/2018 at 04:17 |
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I still hate it. You can make a racing version of anything. But the C-HR road car is one of the furthest cars you can get from a racing car, the whole thing is ludicrous.
Tohru
> HammerheadFistpunch
04/20/2018 at 00:21 |
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Toyota killed the xB with the second generation redesign. Sales tanked after they made it a blob.