Your thoughts about HPDE instructor certification?

Kinja'd!!! "Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief" (flynorcal)
03/27/2018 at 23:11 • Filed to: None

Kinja'd!!!3 Kinja'd!!! 35

Motorsport Safety Foundation has started a program to certify instructors. I happen to be one of those newly certified instructors. I like the card the sent me as my crazy eye should give you some idea of what happens once we strap into a car.

Kinja'd!!!

That’s a cool card and all but for all they know I could be legally blind. That’s a “stage one” card which means I put a few hours and a good amount of effort into an online training class — it’s no joke and it has to do with teaching, not driving quite as much. (Common mistakes are tested to see if you’re aware of what students will do to try to kill you.) It’s all that was offered at the time — last month — but today they announced a partnership with both SCCA and MOMO. Hooked on Driving is in on it too. Here’s a recent article about it all.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

I’m a fan of this kind of certification. I’m also an ASA certified sailing instructor and can guarantee that if you can’t pass the written and the on-the-water solo exercises you’ve got no business teaching offshore heavy weather sailing as you’ll be too busy dirtying your knickers here in the SF Bay Area.

Anyway I think the idea that an instructor can educate you on how to drive safely is better than a ride along with someone who can drive faster than you but can’t articulate why.

I see no down side to this. I’m also shocked it’s not existed already but hey so it goes.

Anyway, it’s a new thing. I’m on board. Anyone else going down this road for shits and giggles or just me? Or if you’ve never driven on a track would that  card somehow make you feel more confident that the guy urging you to trust the car to hold through the turn knows what he is doing?


DISCUSSION (35)


Kinja'd!!! Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief > Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief
03/27/2018 at 23:42

Kinja'd!!!0

https://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/amp19455403/what-you-learn-at-the-motorsport-safety-foundations-driving-instructor-school/?__twitter_impression=true

Kinjazilla ate my link. Shocked, I tell you.


Kinja'd!!! E92M3 > Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief
03/27/2018 at 23:53

Kinja'd!!!1

You have more balls than me. There’s only 3 people I will ride with as a passenger ON THE STREET!


Kinja'd!!! Little Black Coupe Turned Silver > Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief
03/27/2018 at 23:54

Kinja'd!!!2

I’ve always thought about instructing, but I’m pretty sure I would get Mr. BroMan who isn’t going to listen to a lowly woman tell him how to drive, and well, that won’t end well. I have the slightest more glimmer of hope at my current home track, where the lead instructor is a woman. But still not sure about it.


Kinja'd!!! NKato > Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief
03/27/2018 at 23:59

Kinja'd!!!1

Op, tell me, where do you do this thing. I’m trying to find a decent place during daylight to test the limits of my car here in Puget Sound. No luck so far, and I have no budget for a track lesson. :/


Kinja'd!!! Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief > Little Black Coupe Turned Silver
03/28/2018 at 00:10

Kinja'd!!!0

With sailing I always apologize for not being a woman as they’re much better sailors as the lack of physical strength means they learn the right technique and are better at instructing it from the get go. Jamming your ankle into the gap between the boat and the dock to prevent a bump doesn’t work past a few tons of boat. Best to see how a woman handles it. No joke.

As for your predicament I see the point exactly and I have no good advice. I like driver’s meetings that drive home the point that if the girl behind you with pigtails in her Miata is suddenly behind your Corvette, impress her by passing on the straight after letting her by in the turns.

She sure didn’t get there by being slower than you.


Kinja'd!!! Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief > NKato
03/28/2018 at 00:15

Kinja'd!!!1

Pacific Raceways in Kent, WA. Lack of budget however seems to be the truly limiting aspect.


Kinja'd!!! Little Black Coupe Turned Silver > Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief
03/28/2018 at 00:21

Kinja'd!!!3

I’m the woman behind people in the Corvette and I can’t count the number of times I roll through pit lane to get some space because nothing will get a point-by out of some drivers. One time I caught the same car three times before I parked and went in search of someone to talk some sense into the driver. He made it out one more session, and then was told he was done for the weekend, but that was for a major red/black flag violation.


Kinja'd!!! Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief > E92M3
03/28/2018 at 00:22

Kinja'd!!!1

I’ve got a coworker who thinks he’s a fast driver. Can’t wait to cut some stranger off or tailgate or some shit. Then on the open freeway does the limit or just under but needs to have physical combat nearly in city traffic.

I am with you.


Kinja'd!!! Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief > Little Black Coupe Turned Silver
03/28/2018 at 00:33

Kinja'd!!!1

You’re likely attributing novice driving to having something to do with you specifically. It’s likely more other drivers being unaware than it having anything to do with you. Try to not assume malice when stupidity is a perfectly good answer.

Move up a class. Once point by is optional you’ll get racing room.


Kinja'd!!! Little Black Coupe Turned Silver > Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief
03/28/2018 at 00:38

Kinja'd!!!1

I would, but my local track insists on grouping people by lap time and not skill, unless you’re a true novice in driving school. And it drives me crazy. Depending on what cars show up, sometimes I’m in the slow group and sometimes in the fast, it seems the split it always right around my lap time... The slower group is often slow because of driver skill, and sometimes I get thrown there even with 7 years of experience.


Kinja'd!!! Mid Engine > Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief
03/28/2018 at 00:40

Kinja'd!!!1

HPDE needs to lower the cost SUBSTANTIALLY for novices to make the sport more inclusive. It will give the street racers somewhere to go, develop skills, and build a grass roots following of motorsports. It’s a no brainer to me.


Kinja'd!!! Little Black Coupe Turned Silver > Mid Engine
03/28/2018 at 00:50

Kinja'd!!!0

Tracks are expensive to rent, and it likely isn’t possible to let ~25-33% of the participants get a discount just for being new without changing the other ~66-75% even more money, which means they won’t be able to afford going either.


Kinja'd!!! Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief > Little Black Coupe Turned Silver
03/28/2018 at 00:50

Kinja'd!!!1

Any organization that feels a pro in a Miata and a day 1 novice in a Viper belong in the same group should be shut down.

I guess this is why I’m all for standardizing shit. As you know, awareness of what is going on around you is far more important than a lap time. Mixing someone who is at the edge in their car with someone who might do something unexpected without clue is a recipe for disaster.

No other orgs running things near you?


Kinja'd!!! Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief > Mid Engine
03/28/2018 at 00:56

Kinja'd!!!1

It’s an expensive endeavor to insure and operate. So it’ll cost ya.

I tend to run with Northern California Racing Club or SpeedSF rather than HOD or Ongrid due to it being half the price with exactly the same experience, more or less, and just as safe. Shopping around is worth it.


Kinja'd!!! Little Black Coupe Turned Silver > Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief
03/28/2018 at 01:00

Kinja'd!!!0

Sadly no, next track is a solid four hours away.

It’s mainly a membership track, usually there’s only 5 or so cars that show up, so those events are fine. Depending on who shows up, sometimes I still go out in the fast group even if I’m suppose to be in slow, because I can watch my mirrors, and even the fast group can only pass in the 3 zones with a point so whatever.

I have the most trouble when it’s an outside group who has rented the track, but still following the lap time business. Then there’s a lot more cars, and the fast group is truly fast and I let my nerves take over and I stay in the slow group.


Kinja'd!!! gettingoldercarguy > Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief
03/28/2018 at 01:00

Kinja'd!!!1

A couple of the runoff areas at Pacific raceways would freak me out. The ridge has a bit more I think. That said, autocross is your cheapest and best route. But that money thing. You might be able to volunteer for credit.


Kinja'd!!! Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief > Little Black Coupe Turned Silver
03/28/2018 at 01:16

Kinja'd!!!1

I opt to drop down a group or two if I’m on an unknown track or have a car I don’t understand.

Let me posit an idea for you to noodle over: those folks in the fast group didn’t get there by accident. They avoided accidents. You might be slower but they know how to pass you safely and more importantly won’t pass you no matter how much you point if they feel they’re making a bet of any kind.

They’re going to pass you though.

That’s when you try to keep up and get all kinds of very serious instruction for free.

Don’t get nerve wracked seeing people in the rear view. Tap the mirror and let them slide by and then try to follow their line. It’s been what I do anyway.


Kinja'd!!! ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief
03/28/2018 at 01:44

Kinja'd!!!2

I’ve been down the PDX/HPDE instructor route. There wasn’t a national body really doing certifications at the time, but we had one regionally (they were a pretty new thing at the time, as even SCCA sanctioned ones differed wildly by region and division).

I think the instructor certification is a good thing per se, but I have bigger reservations about right seat instructing in general on track (at least in the context of novice drivers). Right seat intruction works fantastically well in autocross, but I think the effectiveness decreases as the speeds increase and the risks increase too much. It is a problem off too much speed, too little experience and little or no safety gear. When SCCA was first feeling out these events early 2000's (I was involved in the SCCA’s region (and to a lesser extent, the division) board at the time) 300hp cars and 255mm plus tire cross sections at these events were exception and not the norm. This to say that folks were usually making mistakes at slower speeds. Combine the performance potential of what even a 10-15k budget buys now and little or no safety requirements beyond an Snell M rated helmet and closed toe shoes, and this is how we get some number of people killed at track days every year. When an instructor is in the right seat, you have two people at risk.

For novice students, I’m a much bigger fan of lead-follow instructing with not more than 2-3 students and (ideally) intercomcommunication. This allows students to learn the track, learn the basics of cornering, learn the basic line and braking/acceleration points, and to do so at a controlled pace. Between what you hear in their voice and what you see in your mirrors, you can tell when they’re learning, when the pace is getting beyond their skill level, when they’re ready for more and all while keeping the risks under much better control. FWIW, most professional racing schools employ some variation of lead-follow and not right seat instruction at the novice level.

I think there is great value in sticking a student in an instructor’s right seat, but more at the intermediate and advanced levels. I learned that when I stuck novice student in the right seat of my racecar (it had one at the time to meet minimum weight), despite talking through what I was doing and why, many times the only thing they got from it was “holy shit this is fast” and I’ll little else. My braking points were so much later and corning speeds so much higher than what they (or their street driven car) could do, that they primarily just made funny noises in the passenger seat and what I said just went in one ear and out the other. The real problem would come when we jumped in their car the next session and they sometimes thought they could do the same thing, which promoptly resulted in an off course excursion when they ran out of track, grip and skill. There was, however, sometime value in taking novice students out for not more than 2 laps in a tow vehicle. After the holy shit factor the first couple of corners at how fast we’re going around a corner in 3/4 diesel truck, they could see what I wanted them and feel what I wanted to feel at speeds much closer to what they could achieve at first. Back in the day, this was why the first lap students took on the whole big track at Bondurant were sitting inside a full-size van with an instructor driving. This was also useful on the two occasions older guys in their 50's (who both showed up with then new Boxter S’s) questioned why their instructor was a 17/18 year old kid.

I found that the real instructional value of putting students in my right seat was once they had progressed to reasonable level of skill and pace. At that point they were aclimated to just how fast a car can go around a corner, and they had enough baseline knowledge to really understand what I was telling and showing them. Likewise, once they got to this level they seemed to get more out of my right seat coaching on their car, and they were much less likely to kill me. With novice students that learned real fast, I could take them out for a session in my right seat towards the end of the day have them get something useful out of it.

After I crashed hard in the racecar, I witnessed first hand the effectiveness of my safety gear in logbooked racecar. While I had no hangups about racing again after, I found that instructing in people’s street cars on the track represented a risk I felt a lot less comfortable taking. The fact that things like Z06s were becoming the norm, and not the exception, led me to step away from HPDE instructing. Seriously fast coner entry speeds, novice drivers and no safety gear became something I noped to. I took a lot of joy and satisfaction from taking a novice driver and getting them up to pace around a track, but I ultimately decided the risk was more than I wanted to take.

Good on you for stepping up (and getting a certification), as getting new people involved is how Motorsports survives. Just be careful out there.


Kinja'd!!! Forrest > Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief
03/28/2018 at 02:17

Kinja'd!!!1

Same here. I do HOD when I bring friends who are new to track driving and need more handholding. But, when I am going alone, I usually go in the intermediate groups of SpeedSF and NCRC.


Kinja'd!!! Forrest > gettingoldercarguy
03/28/2018 at 02:19

Kinja'd!!!1

The Ridge Motorsports Park in Shelton, WA is a newer track with big runoff areas. It’s a fun track. I recall that track days at Pacific Raceways and The Ridge cost about the same.

When I did more track driving up there, I found that there are some great instructors who go to just about every HPDE event at both tracks. They were really helpful.


Kinja'd!!! Forrest > Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief
03/28/2018 at 02:23

Kinja'd!!!0

Yeah. One time, when I was still sort of a beginner to HPDE, I ended up in the fastest group due to a clerical error. I got passed a lot, and I’m sure I got in people’s way, but it honestly felt safer than the beginner group where nobody checks their mirrors or looks at the flagging stations.


Kinja'd!!! Forrest > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com
03/28/2018 at 02:26

Kinja'd!!!1

I agree. Perhaps every beginner should be assigned an NA Miata or something like that. Beginners in Z06's seem like accidents waiting to happen. Or, best case, a beginner in a Z06 will pick up some bad habits and not bother to learn the racing line.


Kinja'd!!! gettingoldercarguy > Mid Engine
03/28/2018 at 04:01

Kinja'd!!!2

The risks of damage on track will get very expensive as well. If those costs are that much of a difference, autocross is a ton of fun without 90% of the financial risk. It’s also a lot easier on your car.


Kinja'd!!! Dark chocolate > Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief
03/28/2018 at 07:45

Kinja'd!!!1

Just signed up for it..


Kinja'd!!! ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > Forrest
03/28/2018 at 09:04

Kinja'd!!!1

There is something to that. Horse power can cover up a lot of mistakes, at least until they run against someone good who also has horsepower.


Kinja'd!!! NKato > Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief
03/28/2018 at 09:41

Kinja'd!!!0

Was that a suggestion or do you work at Pacific Raceways?


Kinja'd!!! davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Little Black Coupe Turned Silver
03/28/2018 at 10:01

Kinja'd!!!0

When I went to MSR-Cresson (1.7) several years ago with The Driver’s Edge, I had a female instructor. She was awesome and we had a great time. Just went back a couple days ago to run the 3.1 - what an awesome track.


Kinja'd!!! davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief
03/28/2018 at 10:05

Kinja'd!!!1

What’s the scariest situation you’ve been in as an instructor? What do you think of the risks you’re taking on trusting a person you’ve just met?

Much respect to you for doing it.


Kinja'd!!! Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
03/28/2018 at 11:04

Kinja'd!!!1

No real scares either in a boat or on the track. I’ve got way more experience teaching sailing than driving though but things can go wrong just as quickly with either and honestly I’d rather spin off into the dirt than have a student fall overboard — or to fall overboard myself which would be a death sentence for sure.


Kinja'd!!! Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief > NKato
03/28/2018 at 11:05

Kinja'd!!!0

Just a suggestion. I’m in California.


Kinja'd!!! davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief
03/28/2018 at 11:23

Kinja'd!!!1

Good to hear. [knocking wood on your behalf]


Kinja'd!!! Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com
03/28/2018 at 11:25

Kinja'd!!!1

I’ve seen two Ferraris and one Viper go into the tire wall so far this year. The Ferrari accidents were both on the same day and both were in beginner run groups. Not sure about the Viper but the track was ice cold and they lost it halfway through their first lap so I’d say the car was more powerful than their experience.

There’s a lot of money in the Bay Area so the cars students show up in is a little ridiculous.


Kinja'd!!! Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief > Dark chocolate
03/28/2018 at 11:29

Kinja'd!!!0



I think it’s well sorted for something so new. Only one of the tests (there’s about a dozen) was what I would consider bullshit. I’m curious to hear your opinion.


Kinja'd!!! Dark chocolate > Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief
03/28/2018 at 13:31

Kinja'd!!!0

I will go thru it as soon as I am done with my taxes. April 16th.

Who am I kidding, I’ll go thru it this evening.  


Kinja'd!!! NKato > Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief
03/28/2018 at 16:24

Kinja'd!!!0

I see. Okay, thanks.