Necessary Hot Take: Car Drivers are much worse than Cyclists in every meaningful respect.

"Berang" (berang) 03/14/2018 at 00:03 • Filed to: None

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It’s popular, but incredibly stupid and pointless to shit on cyclists for bad road manners. Because frankly, everything cyclists do, motorists do - and do more of, with worst results generally.

Cars roll through stop signs - so quit yer bitchin. You ever just stand at an intersection with a stop sign and watch? Like 90% of the cars don’t come to a full stop. For some reason, we’re ok with cars rolling through a sign at 3mph, but when cyclist does the same thing? It’s all this “cyclists don’t follow the rules of the road!!1111" bullshit. And if a bicycle rolls through a stop sign? So what? What’s the big fucking deal?

A cyclist blasting through a red light at 10mph, isn’t anything like a car running a red doing 30, 40, or 50. It’s just stupid to pretend a bicycle needs to be held strictly to the same rules written for machines weighing thousands of pounds (and whose owners just blow the rules all the time anyway).

The average car driver doesn’t want to be driving. Driving is just time spent getting from some place to somewhere else, and things like checking mirrors, using blinkers, stopping at stop signs, learning what the words “right of way” mean, having two functioning head lights, or any functioning tail lights - it’s all just dumb shit that doesn’t matter. Who has time for that? A guy’s gotta get to Walmart!

Further, motorists frequently injure and kill cyclists. Not the other way around.

Motorists also frequently kill other motorists, and generally make driving un-fun, and streets dangerous.

Here’s the thing, we’re so used to how shit car drivers are that it doesn’t even register for us. We’ll sit in bumper to bumper traffic for a half hour, without giving a thought. You know, it’s just a thing that happens. Traffic happens. But get held up behind a bicycle for 10 seconds? Your stupid, dumb-ass brain goes “yeah cyclist bad! slow car down! me angy!” so a lot of us have this completely fantastic notion that somehow, cyclists are bad - worse than everybody else on the road. Even when we know we’ve seen ten or more complete idiots driving like total assholes, we see one cyclist that day coast through a stop sign, and we tell ourselves cyclists are the worst!

But no. Motorists are. In every single way. Not even rhetorically, but practically, and demonstrably so.

PS:

cyclists also have thighs

CB > Berang 03/14/2018 at 00:55

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Solid take.

gettingoldercarguy > Berang 03/14/2018 at 00:59

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I rode once with a friend who blitzes through stop signs. Almost got nailed by a Cayenne who did not have a stop sign. He locked up his rear brake and the Cayenne pulled some emergence maneuvers and missed him. Last time I ever rode with him. I expect motorists and cyclists to come to a complete stop.

facw > gettingoldercarguy 03/14/2018 at 02:27

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There’s a huge difference between riding through a stop sign at full speed, and doing a “rolling” stop. The first is bad (and frankly nuts on cyclist’s part), while the second provides plenty of opportunity to evaluate an oncoming traffic, stop if there is some, or proceed otherwise.

facw > Berang 03/14/2018 at 02:34

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I generally agree. Some cyclists are absolutely crazy, and that is a real problem, but there are plenty of people who show just as little care, while driving two ton vehicles at speed.

I do wish that more flexible laws like the Idaho stop were more widely adopted, but even then, a lot of the problem is that we like setting up stop signs way to much, putting them in places that would be much better served by yields, whether for cars or bikes.

G_Body_Man: Sponsored by the number 3 > Berang 03/14/2018 at 02:48

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As both a motorist and a cyclist, I give this take a 3/10. There’s barely enough anecdotal evidence to make an argument, and it comes across as simply a foul-tempered rant by yet another whining road bike enthusiast. Disengaged drivers suck, cavalier cyclists suck, but I’ve never been almost hit by someone blowing through a stop sign in a car....

Berang > G_Body_Man: Sponsored by the number 3 03/14/2018 at 04:32

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Well to add to the anecdotal evidence, I have actually been hit by somebody blowing through a stop sign (or rather somebody who wasn’t paying attention, slammed on their brakes a second too late and skidded into me). Also have had a car totaled by an uninsured driver who just slammed right the hell into the back of my car at a red light, despite the light having been red for several seconds and all traffic around me having stopped as well. 

Also, no, there is shitloads of evidence that motorists are far more dangerous than cyclists, this isn’t even a point of reasonable debate, to suggest otherwise is basically insane.

Berang > facw 03/14/2018 at 04:36

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I’m just tired of the totally unreasonable take most people (who are generally speaking, also TERRIBLE at driving cars) have that cyclists are bad, or posing some sort of threat to them in their car.

I’d happily rather see dumbasses pedaling a bike than driving an SUV.

Tekamul > Berang 03/14/2018 at 06:30

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You think cyclists roll through stops signs? Not roll, press, at full speed, around cars. In warmer weather when I walk from parking to my office I watch them do it almost every day.

And across cross walks of people. Up to the sidewalk if the lights red, in the road if it’s green.

The frustrating part about cyclists is that most drivers try not to break rules. The only cyclist (region specific, I’m sure) that tries to follow the rules is that one guy in full kit with lights, flags, and saddle bags. He’s great, but there’s only one of him. His name is Greg, and all he talks about is cycling.

Aaron M - MasoFiST > G_Body_Man: Sponsored by the number 3 03/14/2018 at 06:54

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I have been almost hit by a motorist blowing a stop sign, in three modes (pedestrian, bicycle, and car). And besides, if you want to complain about data, go sift through NHTSA. There’s plenty of published information about motor vehicle accidents. There’s statistical information about who’s at fault in car/bike accidents and there’s statistical information about the rate of infraction by motorists and cyclists, both official and self-reported.

If you want statistics, you can find them. If you want to rant, there’s Oppositelock. If you want to rant about a lack of statistics, though, you should probably just do a little research.

Long-Voyager > facw 03/14/2018 at 07:33

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Except it’s a STOP sign, not a yield sign?

McMike > Berang 03/14/2018 at 07:59

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It’s popular, but incredibly stupid and pointless to shit on _____ for bad ___manners.

Disagree. This is what we do.

BigBlock440 > Berang 03/14/2018 at 08:19

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A cyclist blasting through a red light at 10mph, isn’t anything like a car running a red doing 30, 40, or 50.

And we chastise those assholes too.

Here’s the thing, we’re so used to how shit car drivers are that it doesn’t even register for us.

No, it does. And we call them out and yell at them, and even post dashcam videos to oppositelock.

And if another motorist slows me down, they get the exact same rage that a cyclist (or group) that is (are) being an asshole would get.

But whatever, if you want to keep blowing stop signs or otherwise antagonizing people in cars, you’re the one that’s ultimately going to lose.

smobgirl > facw 03/14/2018 at 08:37

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Random fact, Great Falls, MT doesn’t have any stop signs in residential neighborhoods. Apparently everyone just knows to yield to someone approaching on the right. I have no idea how well it works.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Berang 03/14/2018 at 08:57

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1. For starters, I couldn’t give three shits about bikes running stop signs. Or cars rolling them for that matter. There’s way too fucking many of them around here. The problem arises when there’s more than one vehicle... Then you stop and wait your damn turn, I don’t care how many wheels you’ve got. A driver rolling through and not waiting their turn is stupid and dangerous. A biker doing it is both of those, and also entitled and ignoring any sense of self preservation.

2. The roads are safest when everyone is traveling in the same direction at roughly the same speed. The biker is the anomaly. Like it or not. Along with their friends the Corolla and Prius of course.

3. Swap out the rider and the driver and let me know the results. I’ll wait.

^ Moped at pedal bike speeds. It counts.

4. One of the reasons you never hear about cyclists running into cars is, who cares? It doesn’t leave any damage and 9/10 times the cyclist is fine. It happens, for the same reason so many accidents happen—distraction. I’ve ridden smack into the back of a parked vehicle (an F350 with a cap no less) while trying to get some component on my handlebars working. Actually IIRC I almost did it again a few years ago. Like an idiot.

5. All of this is actually funny, because it seems to be road bikers that get pissed off over “bikers are so terrible” while 99% of the offenders I see are their suburban neighbourhood cousins. The ones that never go above 15km/h, weave all over the place and often travel in packs. Oh, and entitled people on Vespa’s. As usual the real dicks don’t care. I can count the issues I’ve had with road bikers on one hand. As the enthusiasts of the group I rarely find them to be in a position of annoyance. They stay out of the way, they communicate—and when they ARE in a position of annoyance, they have a legitimate reason for it, and I can’t really blame them.

At least, that’s my take based on My_Local_Area. YMMV

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Berang 03/14/2018 at 08:57

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1. For starters, I couldn’t give three shits about bikes running stop signs. Or cars rolling them for that matter. There’s way too fucking many of them around here. The problem arises when there’s more than one vehicle... Then you stop and wait your damn turn, I don’t care how many wheels you’ve got. A driver rolling through and not waiting their turn is stupid and dangerous. A biker doing it is both of those, and also entitled and ignoring any sense of self preservation.

2. The roads are safest when everyone is traveling in the same direction at roughly the same speed. The biker is the anomaly. Like it or not. Along with their friends the Corolla and Prius of course.

3. Swap out the rider and the driver and let me know the results. I’ll wait.

^ Moped at pedal bike speeds. It counts.

4. One of the reasons you never hear about cyclists running into cars is, who cares? It doesn’t leave any damage and 9/10 times the cyclist is fine. It happens, for the same reason so many accidents happen—distraction. I’ve ridden smack into the back of a parked vehicle (an F350 with a cap no less) while trying to get some component on my handlebars working. Actually IIRC I almost did it again a few years ago. Like an idiot.

5. All of this is actually funny, because it seems to be road bikers that get pissed off over “bikers are so terrible” while 99% of the offenders I see are their suburban neighbourhood cousins. The ones that never go above 15km/h, weave all over the place and often travel in packs. Oh, and entitled people on Vespa’s. As usual the real dicks don’t care. I can count the issues I’ve had with road bikers on one hand. As the enthusiasts of the group I rarely find them to be in a position of annoyance. They stay out of the way, they communicate—and when they ARE in a position of annoyance, they have a legitimate reason for it, and I can’t really blame them.

At least, that’s my take based on My_Local_Area. YMMV

CB > G_Body_Man: Sponsored by the number 3 03/14/2018 at 09:07

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I have.

Also, countering anecdotal evidence with more anecdotal evidence is ironic.

CB > smobgirl 03/14/2018 at 09:08

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We have yield signs in a lot of places here in Saskatoon (as well as some uncontrolled intersections). It’s not great, to be honest.

facw > Long-Voyager 03/14/2018 at 09:18

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A bike slowing down to a slow roll is going to have more time to check out traffic than a car that comes to a complete stop. It’s silly to demand a full and complete stop for them. It’s also worse, and more dangerous for everyone to have a full stop, since it after a stop, it will take the bike longer to get moving again.

Milky > Berang 03/14/2018 at 09:24

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Luke warm take: People suck, doesn’t matter if they’re driving, riding or walking.

smobgirl > CB 03/14/2018 at 09:39

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They have nothing. It took me a few minutes to notice that the cross streets I was driving past didn’t have stop signs, so I have to wonder how many people just never realize.

fintail > Berang 03/14/2018 at 09:42

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#triggered

Not many remarkable thighs on the skinny 2 wheeled professional victims around here.

Spend some time around Seattle, you’ll end up hating cyclist dorks just as much as motorists.

CB > smobgirl 03/14/2018 at 09:45

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Yikes. Uncontrolled intersections terrify me.

Long-Voyager > facw 03/14/2018 at 10:02

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You must be a cyclist, it’s the only way this logic makes any sense.

A Stop sign is a Stop sign, regardless of vehicle, regardless of if there’s anything coming, PERIOD. If you can’t be bothered to read and follow it, you are part of the problem.

Captain Brotatohead > Long-Voyager 03/14/2018 at 12:11

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Is there a major problem with vehicles running into each other at intersections? As someone who bikes 8500+ miles (400+ish hours) and drives another 15000 (400+ hours) per year I can’t say that I’ve ever seen an accident at a 4 way stop intersection. My philosophy is to always roll the sign when practicable and to stop when necessary. I probably roll signs at about the same rate in both modes of transportation. I should pause to say that one of my primary focuses while navigating three dimensional space is to avoid all contact with other objects as the laws of physics supercede “laws” implemented by apes. Through my observations over 17 years of driving I’ve noticed that people who unnecessarily come to a complete stop (i.e. it’s their turn and instead of gently rolling through, they stab the brakes) put themselves at greater risk. If you couldn’t tell, what I’m suggesting here is that you’re part of the problem and not the other way around. You’re wasting gas, you’re wasting time, and you’re simply functionally inferior. Are you also one of those people who sits in the left lane at 65mph because the speed limit is the law?

P.S. I’ve had two close cycling friends killed by drivers over the last 4 years. First, a driver failed to yeild to traffic, turned left in front of a pack of cyclists who were traveling downhill at 33mph in a 35 zone. The front two riders (Matthew Billings and Jim Lambert) died and several more were sent to the hospital. Last fall my friend Jeremy Grimm was killed when a driver failed to stop at a two way stop intersection. The first driver was found not guilty and the second case is still open.

Long-Voyager > Captain Brotatohead 03/14/2018 at 12:15

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Last fall my friend Jeremy Grimm was killed when a driver failed to stop at a two way stop intersection.

Tries to rip on me, then proves my point, thanks.

FYI, the 2 secs it takes to come to a complete stop wastes a lot less time than the 15mins spent pulled over for failing to stop. It also gives me additional time to ensure all the other idiots approaching the intersection actually stop, which keeps me out of time wasting accidents.

Captain Brotatohead > Long-Voyager 03/14/2018 at 12:27

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Ultracrepidarian, if the driver had treated the stop sign as a yeild (the same way a cyclist typically would), there wouldn’t have been an accident.

Long-Voyager > Captain Brotatohead 03/14/2018 at 12:30

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That’s ass-uming the driver would have seen the cyclist to treat it as a yield.

gettingoldercarguy > facw 03/14/2018 at 12:54

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And that’s just the thing, the cyclists I see almost always blast through at full speed whereas the motorists do a rolling stop. If I sit at any intersection around my neighborhood I can practically guarantee that the vast majority of cyclists will blow through at their cruising speed versus a motorist who at least slows down. Unfortunately this same disregard for public safety carries over to when they’re on trails with foot traffic.

Berang > gettingoldercarguy 03/14/2018 at 15:16

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Except “blasting through” on a bike isn’t much different than “rolling through” in a car speed wise. But a car weighs thousands of pounds.

Berang > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 03/14/2018 at 15:20

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The largest number of entitled/careless road users are sat in motor vehicles. Try and change my mind.

In any event, I’d rather the suicidal be on bicycles than behind the wheel of a large SUV.

gettingoldercarguy > Long-Voyager 03/14/2018 at 15:20

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See, we need variable laws that aren’t fully understood by all or practiced by everybody. That way when a situation like this does present itself people can then say,

‘I was in the clear for ignoring the actual law and observing the one I made in my head.”

I love it how motorists all go through the stop signs at 30-50mph (really!?!?!?) and all cyclists are courteous, go through intersections only after observing all other traffic and at a very slow and “reasonable” pace. Fucking please.

Again, let’s go look at how cyclists behave around pedestrians on trails and then on public roads with motorists. They continually fail to observe common decency and feebly attempt to sycophantically manipulate the law.

I’m a cyclist and a runner who hates most other cyclists, but not other runners.

Berang > Tekamul 03/14/2018 at 15:20

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Plot twist: most cyclists own cars, drive exactly the same way they ride.

Berang > fintail 03/14/2018 at 15:21

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Seattle is the only city I’ve been hit by a car in... never got hit by a cyclist there.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Berang 03/14/2018 at 15:24

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The largest number of vehicles on the road, full stop, are motor vehicles.

I’m of two minds. On the one hand, having the suicidal be on bikes means a lot less damage... on the other, I’d rather write off a couple vehicles than run someone over and kill them.

gettingoldercarguy > Berang 03/14/2018 at 15:29

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The bike is smaller and less visible, and yes the speed difference I continually see is much greater for car versus bike. The one thing I have always heard from other cyclists is they hate how much more energy it takes to stop and start back up. They’re just lazy is the real reason.

fintail > Berang 03/14/2018 at 15:30

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I’ve had more than one close call while jogging. To be fair, I’ve had more than one with distracted drivers too - but I like to think cyclists are more attentive than drivers. Around here, both groups are deplorable and don’t understand the point of a green-signaled crosswalk.

Tekamul > Berang 03/14/2018 at 15:34

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Cannot confirm. I work with an incompetent cyclist who is a passable driver. But when on 2 wheels, feels his time is more valuable than all others, because he’s peddling.

StudyStudyStudy > Berang 03/14/2018 at 17:02

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Lol, I’ve been hit by 2 cyclist in this city, not yet a car. Both times I had the right of way.

StudyStudyStudy > Berang 03/14/2018 at 17:30

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What is the big deal when rolling through a stop sign?

When it is a 2 way stop and the cross traffic is a city bus with over 100 people on board. I’ve seen cyclist kill themselves because of that poor understanding of physics. I think we have had 3 college students ride out in front of buses or dumptrucks when I was in school. The term “multiple body bags were required” comes to mind. Bus drivers also have to deal with that mentally as does everyone on board, not to mention the people who have to clean up, and the restaurants that had customers inside when that happened. I walked by one of those scenes without knowing what happened. It was pretty gruesome, they closed about 2 blocks on a friday night while they cleaned the road after they collected the pieces.

Generally I don’t think too well of them, neither do I of inattentive car drivers. I’ve eaten big shit while longboarding when someone decided to pop out of a 2 way stop looking the wrong way. Coming to a stop on your hands while going 20+mph sucks a lot.

Berang > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 03/14/2018 at 23:07

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Well, if you’re running somebody over, you’re the one causing the problem either way. So not sure it matters much what vehicles are involved.

Berang > gettingoldercarguy 03/14/2018 at 23:08

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Lazy being relative, since people in cars who roll stop signs don’t even have that excuse as a reasonable one.

gettingoldercarguy > Berang 03/14/2018 at 23:09

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They’re both lazy

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Berang 03/15/2018 at 08:24

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If someone rides (or runs) out in front of me I’m the problem? Nice try.

Captain Brotatohead > Tekamul 03/15/2018 at 11:39

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This is an asinine take. We do not regularly roll through stop signs at full press. I have and will continue to do that given the rare circumstance that I have full field of view in all directions and no cars are present. (I have it on good authority that no cars will teleoport their way into my physical space as this is exceedingly improbable.) Do you really think that a cycling enthusiast doesn’t understand the inharent risk involved when interacting with vehicles? Of the 250 people who follow me on Strava I’m probably one of the most agressive in terms of road law disobedience. I live in the burbs and have access to great riding roads, but when I cross through town, I do not file in front of cars at lights, I stop and wait in line, I do not brazenly roll stop signs, I always signal. I’m accountable for the risks I take and I understand the consequences; I will not blame a driver if I’m at fault. The problem for me is that many drivers don’t understand the consequences of the risks they take: passing over a blind hill crest, passing before a blind corner, hovering as they slowly pass, pass too closely, late pass before turning (right hook). Most people are perfectly cool, some are even encouraging, others are needlessly aggressive, and many are just fucking oblivious. Riding a bike is a major part of my life, I’m out and about experiencing this topic 8-12 hours per week, every week. Gen pop, has an absurdly inaccurate take on how things really are, which is kinda the whole point of this guy’s OP.

Berang > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 03/16/2018 at 19:36

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Well, I mean, supposing you have a steering wheel, brake pedal, and a functioning brain and eyes. Otherwise take the bus if not running into things is too hard.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Berang 03/17/2018 at 15:58

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And a two-ton piece of steel that doesn’t stop just because someone decides to jump out in front of you. You know that as well as I do. Please attempt to be realistic.