Eminem's Place in the Genre and White Privilege: The Daily Beast

"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
12/23/2018 at 10:21 • Filed to: None

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Eminem is regarded as one of the most important artists in the history of the genre even though his albums haven’t been as genre-defining as so many of his peers, and his music is only tangentially influential when compared to a Rakim, 2Pac, Jay-Z or Kanye. He’s mostly important for providing white fans a credible entry point into the genre.

Personally? A s a white man and a musical man, I have always been suspicious of white artists peddling themselves as rap / hip hop artists, even if their music sounds cool at times.

DISCUSSION (62)

Supreme Chancellor and Glorious Leader SaveTheIntegras > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/23/2018 at 10:41

The “king of hip hop” is subjective, as is “the best nba player” or “the best car” etc.

jimz > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/23/2018 at 11:01

yeah, I was in high school in the ‘90s when this exploded. I still chuckle at the memory of dorky suburban white kids talking with phony black accents, calling each other “my n***a,” forming the most pathetic “gangs,” and insisting they be called by their favorite artists names like “Dre” and “snoop dogg.” Then 4 or so kids in my junior class got the bright idea to go skulking around Brightmoor one Saturday night and found out that real gang members shoot at you.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Supreme Chancellor and Glorious Leader SaveTheIntegras
12/23/2018 at 11:12

I don’t think the writer of the story claims otherwise.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > jimz
12/23/2018 at 11:14

Yeah. All of that, and as a high school / middle school educator, I see the same fako white kids pretending the same crap today.

The Dummy Gummy > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/23/2018 at 11:14

I can’t take an article seriously that puts Kanye and Jay-Z on the same level as 2Pac. Both great artists, but no way the same influence or talent.

I can say I expect anything different from a garbage publication - that is the daily beast.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/23/2018 at 11:26

I’m not a fan of categorizing people or music. There’s a lot to be said about people who are daring enough to cross genres. Often they grew up around the “other” group and were strongly influenced by the “other” culture, making it easier for them to cross those boundaries, and, as a result, provide a path for others of their own cultural group to join in the fun. In a way, they make it acceptable.

This is what people have done forever - incorporate the best of the race/ culture/religion while ignoring the worst.

Spanfeller is a twat > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/23/2018 at 11:29

I’m split on what a cultural appropriation actually looks like and whether it would bother me. But this is my understanding of it;

Like, Taco Bell claiming its Mexican food is wrong in the same way a s teak isn’t fish . If they said it was tex mex or fusion, I think it would be more accurate.

Is “fusion” food bad? No... because it recognizes that it is a mix of different cultural foods.

However, is it wrong for, I dunno, an Asian person to claim they invented chicharrones? I think it is wrong but *not* because they’re A sian.... but because they were ignorant about a culture that had invented it before, in the same way that if a B lack person claimed they invented a hairstyle that was widely known beforehand within the Bl ack community it would be wrong.

But if I made a new type of quesadilla, is it a cultural appropriation because I’m a white immigrant to Mexico? Or is it part of Mexican culture because I’m Mexican? Or are the indigenous people the only people that can make new recipies and call them quesadillas?

This I think is the grey area, what roll is race and origin supposed to play when we talk about culture... How much of a Spainard am I? I think I am not. But should a third generation Mexican immigrant to the US consider themselves A merican or Mexican or both?

Personally, I don’t think culture is genetically hereditary, but geographically so... which means that... as long as you recognize the background, and be respectful as to what your addition means to the culture, then if someone gets angry they’re being unreasonable

AutumnAtArcadeCity > The Dummy Gummy
12/23/2018 at 12:04

Really? Like him or hate him, to deny Kanye as one of hip hop's all-time most influential artists shows an extremely shocking lack of awareness or knowledge of the genre's history. He has, single-handedly, changed the industry's course several times and influenced countless artists with his albums and releases

HondoyotaE38: A Japanese and German Collab...wait a minute > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/23/2018 at 12:10

Em isn't good because he's white, he's good because his rhymes and words all have meaning and he can deliver it with killer flow with a pretty good beat most of the time. King of Hip Hop? Not too sure about that, but he definitely is one of the greats.

Future Heap Owner > Spanfeller is a twat
12/23/2018 at 12:37

I don’t think any of those is a damaging kind of cultural appropriation (expect for maybe Glen Bell starting Taco Bell back in the day). Harmful/exploitative c ultural appropriation is when you gain from the traditions of a culture that you have little or no relation to, and you don’t give anything back to people who come from that culture. Then you’re just a leech.

Future Heap Owner > The Dummy Gummy
12/23/2018 at 12:49

I think most hip-hop fans (myself included) would put both of them on the same level as 2Pac in terms of influence. So many currently popular rappers name one or both of them as influences.

Spanfeller is a twat > Future Heap Owner
12/23/2018 at 12:51

But what is “ coming from a culture”?

I think that is the biggest issue, because to me, being from a culture doesn’t come from ancestry or race; but from proximity to it. I can’t claim to be Spanish simply because that’s where my ancestry is from, I am Mexican, and if anything I’m more closely related to American culture thanks to my education than either Mexican or Spanish culture, yet I’m not A merican!

Plus, how do you decide who in a culture to give retribution to if you use their stuff to advance yourself? I don’t think anything beyond recognition of where what you did came from is necessary because a culture doesn’t belong to a people; it belongs to a common human heritage.

Future Heap Owner > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/23/2018 at 12:53

Naw, Eminem has chops. Plus he gave us the term “stan.” I don’t like his stuff that much myself, but IMO h e can stay up there.

Tristan > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/23/2018 at 13:16

Never miss an opportunity to judge someone by their skin color in the name of equality!

The Dummy Gummy > AutumnAtArcadeCity
12/23/2018 at 13:47

Except I didn’t say that. Try reading again before being a fucking twat. I’d put him right up there, but not the same level - Kanye’s music is influential and legendary, but not the best of the best; which Tu pac was.

The Dummy Gummy > Future Heap Owner
12/23/2018 at 13:49

I’m not saying they aren’t influencers I just think there is a great in ever field that is untouchable and Tupac is that to me. I’m not trying to downplay Jay-Z or Kanye.

Omegapixel > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/23/2018 at 14:57

Wheres....the rest of the article?

Omegapixel > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/23/2018 at 15:03

This is the laziest shit ever.

“Hey I found this article on another site... I have BAREY any opinion on it at all, but I decided to post about it anyways... Y’all go ahead and fight about race in the comment section below!”

Predadente > jimz
12/23/2018 at 15:14

Bbecause eminem says "my nigga" allllllllllllllllll the time...

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Tristan
12/23/2018 at 15:41

Except I don’t think that’s what’s happening here. The commentary never says that Em’s music is less than strong or popular. The writer is talking about how the genre was defined and Em’s role in that. He’s a showman with a show that people will pay to see because they like it. Nothing wrong with that. But does his show help define the genre, or just take advantage of it? That’s the question. I don’t like the genre much myself because too much misogyny and violence, though there’s a good beat and some enjoyable sounds.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > TheRealBicycleBuck
12/23/2018 at 15:43

I don’t see this guy as categorizing people, per se . I mean, to do otherwise, to ignore the elephant(s) in the room, is also problematic. Like I said to Tristan elsewhere in this thread, Em’s got a show that people will pay to hear and neither I nor the Beast writer take issue with that fact. But does Em define the genre? That’s his (open) question and the writer argues “no.”

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Future Heap Owner
12/23/2018 at 15:49

is when you gain from the traditions of a culture that you have little or no relation to,

I think you inadvertently ask the primary question here: what relation do whites have to blacks in this country, or vise versa? This man’s article about Eminem’s relationship to his genre opens that question. And from some of the comments I’ve seen here, many of which will never see the light of day, the question makes some white folk get very defensive.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Spanfeller is a twat
12/23/2018 at 15:52

What is “American” culture? I do not mean to provoke you by my asking this question, but I would be curious to know what you would cite as examples. In your case, who you are, where you come from, as I’ve read your description of it, is a soup of place and ancestry and experience, as it is for all of us. Yet the folks who get the most defensive are the white Americans -- of European ancestry, I guess, mostly -- who really get testy when they have their privilege pointed out to them.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > HondoyotaE38: A Japanese and German Collab...wait a minute
12/23/2018 at 15:54

I’m certainly in no position to argue that point with you and I do not think the writer of the analysis I posted is claiming anything else than what you’ve stated. Just that the genre where Em makes his mark, he maybe did not define. And I think that is a fair question.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Future Heap Owner
12/23/2018 at 15:55

I think the writer of the article I posted gives Eminem plenty of credit. Lots of credit. But his points are too subtle for some of our community members.

Derpdashberb > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/23/2018 at 16:25

The problem “privilege” as it’s used today is that people are being confronted with things that they, in general, had no choice about. Where they were born, they didn’t choose that, so to confront because that place granted them some sort of privilege...it’s confronting somebody about a prceived injuctice or wrong they couldn’t change. That will always result in a level of defensiveness. If you, the poor sod who has no real power for change, is constantly confronted about things you had no control over, labeled as if your somehow inherently wrong for those things...the level of defensiveness increases with each confrontation. Most of the billions on this plant just want to take care of themselves, their family, and they're expected to correct things they've got not ability correct, and labeled harshly because their inability is relabled and a choice. No matter what, your skin, your birth, your raising, were never under your control. It doesn't matter if I'm confronting you because those things were superior to mine or if I'm confronting your because your skin is an inferior color to mine. It's the same thing, just repackaged. Some privileges people "enjoy" they had no choice about, no power to change. I shouldn't treat you differently than I would be treated just because I can relabel my actions as being righteous. Most atrocities in history were committed because someone felt they were righteous.

Spanfeller is a twat > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/23/2018 at 16:28

To me American culture is a deviation from European culture that thrived under a less socially- pressured setting with more individualism in mind. It is also this version of European culture in which African, Asian, and Latino culture got mixed in as well.

If I were asked which culture represents the world the most, I’d point at American culture. Granted, saying “American culture” is kind of a misnomer, because each region of the US is rich in culture; want an example?

When movies are translated into Spanish, there’s a “Texan" accent in Spanish, differentiable to a regular accent.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Derpdashberb
12/23/2018 at 16:36

But if you are white in America, or much of anywhere else, well, you have advantages. Perhaps taking the privilege label off would allow for more of constructive conversations. Can those advantages be leveraged on behalf of folks who do not receive those advantages?

But sure, you can’t help where you were or born or what you look like, which in part, makes arbitrary lines on maps and walls to keep people out, somehow unfair. If you’re born on this side of a particular fence and the water and the fuel is on the other side of that fence, then why should you be denied a drink or a warm bath?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Spanfeller is a twat
12/23/2018 at 16:38

I think it would be a very academic thing to try and answer the question I asked. My short answer: there really isn’t one that isn’t made up of Taco Bell and Wendy’s and the like. Our capitalism defines us more than anything else, in my opinion.

Spanfeller is a twat > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/23/2018 at 16:46

I understand why you feel that way, but I disagree. W hile yes the US is very capitalistic, I don’t think your culture is at all defined by the economic principles that guide it. I think it has a bigger relationship with geography than anything else.

lest we forget that for most of its history, the US wasn’t that capitalistic.

My bird IS the word > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/23/2018 at 17:03

Rap isn’t music, it’s poetry with a beat. There' s no melody. Most Hip hop is music though.

Future Heap Owner > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/23/2018 at 17:04

By “the genre,” do you mean gangsta rap in particular or hip-hop in general?

TheRealBicycleBuck > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/23/2018 at 17:14

I think the hard part here is to whom he defines the genre. I’ll admit that I’m not a fan of rap. However, I do know some of Eminem’s lyrics, but only to those songs that were clean enough for the radio.

The author does make an excellent point. Eminem wears a crown, but it’s not one given to him by the black community. The disadvantage that all genre artists face is the numbers. The white audience is just so much larger in the U.S. If the artist can’t cross over and attract that audience, then even if they are king of their genre to their own audience, they’ll never be as successful as someone who manages to cross that boundary. A couple come to mind, namely Prince and Michael Jackson.

So, does Eminem define the genre? I agree with the author. The answer is no. But I think he does define the genre for the white audience. Maybe not define it, but he certainly makes it more accessible.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Spanfeller is a twat
12/23/2018 at 17:24

Well, I’m far from an expert, but I think the entire plan was founded upon free enterprise and making and selling stuff. We’ve just gotten a lot more efficient at it over the past 240 years.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > My bird IS the word
12/23/2018 at 17:25

I’d argue that there’s little actual musicality in any of it, but who says a rhythm isn’t music?

Xsane > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/23/2018 at 17:26

Dre got more money from producing Eminem than Em got for himself.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Future Heap Owner
12/23/2018 at 17:28

First off, I don’t claim any expertise and I have but a tiny amount of exposure to it because while I find the beats and the sounds compelling at time, I think they lyrics paint a very unhappy picture, so I don’t stick around much.

But to your question, I see gangsta rap as a rather u nimaginative sub-genre of the larger hip hop genre.

Tristan > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/23/2018 at 17:33

I loved me some Eminem in high school... Yes, I was a skinny white farm kid in nowhere, Minnesota blasting Eminem in a ‘79 Ford pickup. I was so edgy. The author may be on to something.

Future Heap Owner > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/23/2018 at 17:51

I was pretty sure you meant gangsta rap, but if you didn’t I was ready to blast some links at ya

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/23/2018 at 17:58

The writer honestly isn’t giving Eminem enough credit. It isn’t an unfair statement to say that he did, in fact, redefine the genre. And not because he’s white. It’s because he’s an extremely talented musician . Not a rapper.

No, I’m not saying he’s got a degree in music theory or anything like that. That’s not what makes someone a musician. A musician is, by definition, “a person who plays a musical instrument, especially as a profession, or is musically talented.” Not lyrically, but musically. And he’s got the chops and then some.

And he’s not the first. The Beastie Boys redefined hip hop not because they were white, but because they brought something new musically . Allow me to enlighten your ears with two tracks. First, the Beastie Boys.

This track was released in 1986. Where to even begin? You’ve got sampling, you’ve got layering of the vocals, you’ve got complex lyrics, you’ve got a whole story in the music video, and you’ve got an actual melody going on.

This track was also released in 1986. And this is just as culturally significant according to the Library of Congress just to name one. Both are the same genre, technically. There’s a lot of common elements, but you simply cannot argue that the Beastie Boys did not produce a much more musically and lyrically complex track.

The Beastie Boys basically kicked rap and hip hop back into being actual music instead of just some guys dropping rhymes over sampled beats. They weren’t afraid to get completely weird or just lose the plot (Paul’s Boutique, Hello Nasty, The In Sound from Way Out!.) If you wanted to sell records, you had to have a real tune behind it. Which being blunt, is going back to the roots.

“Going back to the roots?” Enlighten your ears with this:

The Beastie Boys are, as you can see, arguably closer to the original founding artists than what rap and hip hop had turned into. But they were far more experimental than anyone else, and had some very real musical chops of their own. Remember, they started out as a New York hardcore punk group. They can all play instruments. That very much was not the case for their contemporaries OR the founding groups of the genre.

Well, rap and hip hop cruises along for another 10+ years, and it’s mostly tracking along with the Beastie Boys from 10 years ago. They’re busy doing The In Sound from Way Out! while everyone else is just rapping over samples of other people’s music. (Seriously, check out that album. It’s amazing . The reviewers panned it because, gasp, they did something different. )

It’s all about who you know more than talent as a result. See also the whole thing with Death Row Records, 2Pac, Suge Knight, etcetera. I’m not a huge rap fan, and most of the crap from that era, I just consider unlistenable. It’s just crap. Period. Stale, rehashed, copy-paste.

And then comes along this white kid from Warren spitting entire paragraphs .

2Pac in 1996:

“First off, fuck yo’ bitch and the clique you claim
Westside when we ride, come equipped with game
You claim to be a player, but I fucked your wife
We bust on Bad Boys, niggas fucked for life”

Eminem in 1996:

“Ayo, my pen and paper cause a chain reaction
To get your brain relaxin’, the zany actin’ maniac in action
A brainiac in fact, son, you mainly lack attraction
You look insanely wack when just a fraction of my tracks run”

These guys are not even on the same planet in terms of skill. And 2Pac ain’t the winner.

The underlying beats aren’t so different. They’re very bare-bones with little complexity. But the lyrics are on a completely different level compared to the guys allegedly at the top of their game.

Eminem being white helped sell white audiences, sure. But this is from before he ‘blew up’ and a perfect example of why he blew up. This is a geeky as fuck song, an ode to scientific concepts . There’s no gats, no pussy, no gang shoutouts, no beefs. The underlying track isn’t particularly complex. But this track is DEEP .

So, frankly, I don’t think it’s a fair dig to claim it’s because he’s white. And it’s absolutely FALSE to say his albums aren’t genre-defining. Eminem’s lyrics completely redefined the standards . Overnight. Period. Yes, he provided white fans with someone to point to and say ‘look! White guy in the genre!’ but we already had that .

The Beastie Boys. They’re white in case you’re blind.

So no. Eminem didn’t sell because he’s white. He sold because he’s an incredibly talented and skilled musician. I really don’t believe he would’ve sold less if he was black. Race isn’t why he redefined the genre. He redefined the genre because he’s just that good a musician.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Xsane
12/23/2018 at 17:59

I am in no position to argue that point. But the writer is not talking about who made money so much as who is hip hop.

Chad > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/23/2018 at 18:02

Yok said it, the term white privilege is a a major problem because a lot of white people including myself at one point don’t understand it’s not about a single person and their white skin, its about how its easier to be white then black in America they feel like it implies they didn’t have to work for what they have it to get where they are, It should be called black disadvantage but you know they gotta generate clicks somehow

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Chad
12/23/2018 at 18:10

We're the owners and beneficiaries of the system to a greater degree than non-whites. As such, we own a degree of responsibility. Shallower people and people selling clicks and tune-ins, have labeled that as white guilt. Very effective at getting large swaths of people to close their minds and just stay angry. None of which is to say we are not owned ourselves, we just have much longer chains. Maybe even RF shock collars.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks
12/23/2018 at 18:52

The Beastie Boys. They’re white in case you’re blind.

So I am going to assume positive intent here on your part, and conclude that you are addressing the writer of the article that I posted, and not me personally. Am I correct about that?

Musicality, I has it. My father and my brother both have DMAs in music performance and I’m as musical as anyone, but I have also developed many other talents and not only music. If you want to talk musicality , then we can talk Beatles, or Red Hot Chili Peppers... As genres g o, I personally don’t think rap / hip hop has but about a beer glass full of musicality in a swimming pool of genre. Ditto for dub step, except more like a shot glass and a wading pool . And what I’d refer to as R&B. And pretty much _anything_ on the radio today, with auto tune and three minutes of refrain. (To that last point, I particularly like Goodbye Earl , by the Dixie Chicks; brilliant writing and story telling. The Chicks also had a great deal of musical ability in their band, but I digress.)

Though this thread was never really about that, and your argument suggests that perhaps it should have been.

When the Beasties released Licensed to Ill , I bought it, on cassette tape. I was in my early 20s, stationed at Fort Polk, Louisiana. Bryan Adams was also enjoying his fifteen minutes of fame during that period and whatever his album was, it was a favorite of mine at that time. And Randy Travis, for that matter, but he only sang songs that other people wrote .

But when you make a cogent argument that the Beasties were — or are — actually musical , then my ears perk up.

I will try listening to anything once. If you have some song suggestions that are devoid of b-words and f-words and n-words, then I’d love to hear them. If such lyrics are a necessity for the genre, then I have more constructive things to listen to.

I suppose my response might seem strident, but it’s not personal at all; if I am defensive, it is in defense of music . Precious little of that around these days, and I keep finding myself going back to Debussy and Sibelius and other composers of the Romantic Period. Will anyone be listening to Eminem or the Beasties in 200 years?

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/23/2018 at 19:48

Definitely correct; this is addressing the author rather than you.

And I’ve got, well, more than a bit of music bones myself. I’m one of those people who can predict the progression of even ‘complex’ songs on the first listen. You know, plus 30 years of playing the piano, and of course marching band in high school, etcetera.

So, as you can guess, it takes some serious skill to actually catch my attention. Eminem’s got that skill. He couldn’t compose to save his life, but anybody who says he can’t pick out a backing track and throw down lyrics with the best of them, is just wrong. And the sooner Clearchannel DIES IN A GODDAMN FIRE since they’re directly responsible for the ABSOLUTE TRASH that is on the radio these days, THE BETTER.

That’s also why I brought up Infinite by Eminem. The extent of cussing is “you don’t know shit” and “do some shit that represents the MO” (as in positive representation.) That’s it. The only violence is metaphorical. And it truly shows off his lyrical skills, not just his ability to drop paragraphs.

Another good example is _White America_, as counterintuitive as it sounds. It’s a self-reflection of how race has impacted his sales as well as a political statement. And yeah. He drops the F bomb a few times. Dropping the F bomb doesn’t invalidate the lyrics or the musical talent involved. It’s his ability to deliver a poignant, relevant, coherent political message in the format that is just.. mind-blowing.

But anyways, here’s the thing about the Beastie Boys. There’s two versions of the Beastie Boys.

There’s what you hear on the radio by the Beastie Boys .
Then there’s the Beastie Boys.
TOTALLY. FUCKING. DIFFERENT. THINGS.

Which is EXACTLY why I brought up The In Sound f rom Way Out! (you must include the exclamation point. It’s the album title.)

The whole album is instrumentals. All of it. And it’s all composed and performed by the Beastie Boys. This is music they wrote and performed. Sometimes with guests, but largely not. And it’s NOT the only time they did it.

They did it again in The Mix-Up. Which is just mindblowing .

Guess how much air time those two albums got? ZERO. Absolute zero. You will never hear any of the tracks off either of them on the radio. You didn’t hear them on the radio when they were new. “Who wants to listen to instrumental tracks from hip hop guys?” Oh, I don’t know, maybe anybody who actually likes good music .

It’s not hip hop. It’s not rap. It’s not jazz. It’s not in any coherently defined genre . That’s why the Beastie Boys embraced hip hop; they could experiment and come up with their own game and their own sound. They could take some of the blues, some rock, some jazz, some lounge music, and put it all together into one single song.

They didn’t even start as having any interest in rap or hip hop. They were punk. They were also the guys who MADE Rick Rubin. Without him? There is no Def Jam. There is no Russell Simmons. When they got up on stage and acted like fools, it was all an act, and everyone loved it. “Three Idiots Create a Masterpiece” indeed. Behind the scenes they were always serious businessmen and serious musicians.

So yeah. I really think people will be listening to Eminem and Beastie Boys in 200 years. Maybe not what was popular when it was new. I’d even go so far as to say probably not the popular stuff. But they both bring very unique, very important cultural touchstones to the table in their own way.

I’d even go so far as to say that extends to a lot of the ‘unusual’ music I listen to. Hidden gems that seem reductive and banal on the surface until you really listen. (Trust me, I listen to more music than you. According to Spotify, I listen to more music than everyone.) For example:

OK, and? He made a good song with a severely limited sound palette. So what, right?

And there it is. The exact same song. Untethered from the palette, it takes on an entirely different character. This is without question one of the ultimate hallmarks of truly good compositions. When you can do something like this.

But hey, let’s go REALLY far out there. Let’s go for something sorta EDM, super repetitive, couldn’t possibly be good music, right? It is absolutely critical that you listen all the way through. Don’t skip around.

There are still some TRULY talented artists out there. It’s just gotten damn hard to find them.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks
12/23/2018 at 20:02

Glad to know you got bones, and thank you for taking the time to share them. Like I said, I did not mean to be overly strident, and I has music and because emotions.

I need a minute to read over what you’ve written here. I appreciate your “bony” response and I will listen carefully and get back to you. I love to experience music, I just get weary of hyper-produced, watered-down gruel passed off as music. Think: Foreigner... At least there wasn’t auto-tune in those days...

I also give rap / hip hop the benefit of a big doubt in my own mind; what I hear described of danger and violence and misogyny I find very troubling and I assume it to be generally authentic. Not happy stuff and I prefer to enjoy my life and I can’t enjoy that picture.

Gotta go fix a CAR... TTYS.

My bird IS the word > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/23/2018 at 20:56

I would lol. That’s why there is a word for it. would be like saying a tire is also a car. It’s just a component to a car.

I would also argue the whole “rap cultural influence” in general, but from a more metaphorical standpoint.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > My bird IS the word
12/23/2018 at 21:21

If what you say is true, then a drummer is not a musician and I think they’d beg to differ.

I would also argue the whole “rap cultural influence” in general, but from a more metaphorical standpoint.

No idea what you’re getting at here...

Berang > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/23/2018 at 22:25

“Eminem is regarded as one of the most important artists in the history of the genre”

false premise

Future Heap Owner > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/23/2018 at 22:37

I went and actually read the article instead of just sounding off, and yeah, I don’t think I disagree with anything the author says. If anything I think he overstates Eminem’s prominence in hip-hop culture, at least in the circles I’ve frequented.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Berang
12/23/2018 at 23:05

I’d love to read you elaborate upon that statement.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Future Heap Owner
12/23/2018 at 23:13

If anything I think he overstates Eminem’s prominence in hip-hop culture,

I think the writer leaves a hickey on Eminem’s ass. But seriously, I think the writer is merely going out of his way to not disrespect Eminem.

This post has been an interesting journey for me today. The post made it to the “Popular on Oppo” short list and has received 13k views and has received a few “pending” comments that were clearly not written by regular Oppos. Not sure what would have brought those people here, but they saw Eminem and left some off color comments.

I don’t much like the genre, though sometimes there’s a beat or an overall sound that I find compelling. But in all, the lyrics tend to be violent and vulgar and misogynistic and paint a very unhappy picture, so I move on pretty quickly most of the time.

But the cultural piece, and the questions the writer asks, are relevant, and that piece is very compelling to me. But there’s an irony : Stereo Williams, writing on The Daily Beast, I bet is writing for a mostly white readership.

My bird IS the word > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/23/2018 at 23:16

I made no statement to that effect. A drummer is a musician, as he is contributing to music. By himself he is just a drummer. I wouldn’t consider drum beats as music in itself, unless the drummer is playing a melody on something capable of making tones.

What I was getting at was the whole

The Detroit rapper’s popularity is undeniable but his cultural influence is highly questionable.

thing. I would argue rap’s influence is highly questionable, but that’s more a double entendre joke.

Future Heap Owner > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/23/2018 at 23:31

Why is that ironic? It definitely seems (appropriately) aimed at a white audience to me.

Berang > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/24/2018 at 01:38

Some people might think he’s one of the most important artists in the history of the genre, but only some. They’re begging the question with this.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Future Heap Owner
12/24/2018 at 02:18

I don’t honestly know who his audience consists of, but I assume that the readers of the Daily Beast are predominately white. I could be wrong about that. But black guy writing to white audience about white dude singing ostensibly black music to white audience; twists and turns and nothing is one or zero. That’s all I’m saying.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Berang
12/24/2018 at 02:19

I certainly have no opinion, but I’m skeptical.

VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/24/2018 at 15:52

As a former classically trained amateur violinist who occasionally has hard opinions about Baroque, Classical and Romantic composers I am so glad this entire comment thread exists.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely
12/24/2018 at 18:05

I appreciate this reply. Will you tell me anything about yourself? I don’t remember ever seeing you around here before. For my part, I am a musical 54- year-old white dad guy 8th grade math teacher carpenter mechanic electrician photographer desktop publisher. Who likes cars and social justice. And the story I originally posted has both music and social justice, so I’m there.

And Merry December to you.

My brother and my father both have performance DMAs. I come from very musical stock, but I pursued lots of things besides music, though I consider myself as musical as anyone.

VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/24/2018 at 18:30

Ah - Merry December to you and yours as well - I did take about a dozen years of violin and had a decent knack for it until a wrist accident that healed badly pretty much ended that. I’m just one of the last of the GenX/Pre-millenial generation that just tends to favor Beethoven a little more than is reasonable. I don’t have anything remotely even close to a DMA and I never will, but I know a little bit about what it takes to get one and the fervent dedication to music (and its history!) that it infers. By day I try to keep IT databases from imploding in on themselves.

I will say that I was fortunate enough to have really good high school teachers (math, science, orchestra, history) and they were instrumental a key component a very critical part of my formative years and the work that teachers like you do is probably the most disproportionately unsung undervalued portion of American education today.

I’m not anything special around here, either. I work too much to play with cars as often as I should, occasionally someone brings in a Nyan Cat reference that I feel obligated to be part of, and it’s pretty public that I am biased towards NSXes.

As far as music goes, I still remember the first time I listened to Mussorgsky’s “Pictures at an Exhibition.” I was 11, and the swell of the beginning of the first movement was one of the most impressive things I have ever heard. Nowadays I’ve gotten lazy and when I do feel like it I tend to pull stuff from the Peter Schickele/PDQ Bach library to amuse myself.

I don’t try to espouse too many hard opinions on my own as experience tends to be relative (and my own knowledge base tends to be lacking,) but I specifically thought the musical discussion between you and RootWyrm should have had more highlighting, as music theory, history, and sharing just how the experience of music has changed over time was really noteworthy.

Cheers and see you around Oppo.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely
12/24/2018 at 19:32

I know a little bit about Peter Schickele — wasn’t he born in Baden Baden Baden? My father performed one of his pieces as part of a chamber music group that he helped form, like, a long time ago. The Schikele experience would have been, like, 1980-ish. I was a bit of a stage manager for that group, as an adolescent, and resident page turner. Among the more memorable performances was a performance of Messiaen’s Quartet for the End of Time. Do you know that piece? My dad played the piano part and he practiced it on the grand piano in the living room for months . I love the piece, even if I do not consider myself an aficionado, especially, of Messiaen. My brother is very active here, the aviation historian Ttyymmnn.

Do you subscribe to Spotify? It would be fun to share some musical links. I have a particular one in mind...

Also, please do chime in with your opinions. I love good discussion with people.

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
12/24/2018 at 19:48

You know, you bring up a REALLY REALLY good point:

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Music over the past 200 years, has transformed FUNDAMENTALLY . People want to stick it on MTV - both good and bad - and blame everything on music videos. Which is complete and utter bullshit.

When you talk about folks like Beethoven, Chopin, Debussy, they were musicians and composers - but they weren’t performers . These were not guys who wrote a song about the love of their life, then got up on stage and performed it. Many of their compositions weren’t about what they were thinking or feeling, but what was musically possible. They were theorists.

People who performed these works for audiences were professionals who had no real emotional investment in the music. They didn’t care all that much one way or the other. If you wanted to hear the latest drop from Tchaikovsky, well, you’ll have to go to the theater when the house pianist is playing him instead of Brahms. That’s Tuesday, by the way.

It’s what I call the mechanical performance issue. Performers had to be mechanical. They were being paid to accurately reproduce the composition because that was the only way you got to hear that composition. Sure, maybe if you were wealthy, you could get it on wax cylinder. But have you ever listened to a wax cylinder or an early record? They sound like SHIT and that’s being WAY too generous, and they last for about 4 plays . It wasn’t until the 1910's and 1920's that you had halfway passable quality and exceptional durability with celluloid cylinders.

But then we get into the 1920's and 1930's. Commercial radio didn’t actually start taking off until the 1920's. Suddenly, a single performer wasn’t limited to the capacity of the concert hall. They aren’t relying on professionals mechanically reproducing their compositions. They don’t have to limit themselves to what others are willing to perform, so now, they have more freedom to experiment and more freedom of expression.

Well, that keeps accelerating, where the composer is now reliably the performer. Roads start actually developing across the country along with reliable cars, and now going on tour is much more economically feasible. Then a irplanes come along, now they can play a sold out show in Peoria on Wednesday and Cleveland on Thursday.

We haven’t even gotten to TV yet, but that right there is where the art of the performance becam e as important as the music. Chubby Checker’s rendition of “The Twist” just doesn’t happen without the aforementioned twist. Which was first performed at a club in New Jersey before going on American Bandstand. The dance is an integral part of the performance and what made it sticky. Chubby Checker basically came up with that dance as part of the performance. If you’ve got a guy telling you to do the twist again and not showing you? Who gives a shit.

So the art of the performance has become as important as the musical theory involved, and arguably more important in some genres. People are paying a thousand plus bucks to go watch some assholes click the play button on their sticker-covered Macbook and calling it ‘life changing.’

Yeah. No. Here’s Deadmau5:

It’s not enough that he’s going out on stage in a giant light-up plastic mau5head. Yes it’s his schtick, but yeah. It’s pretty goddamn boring. So what does he do? He invents THE CUBE . So that it’s no longer some asshole in a mask pressing play on a Macbook and jostling his head for 2 hours. He’s controlling this MASSIVE assembly of screens and lights that doesn’t just light up with pre-programmed sequences, this thing MOVES it CHANGES and it’s AT HIS FINGERTIPS.

So now he’s doing more than just playing his music. He’s truly performing . He’s not the first to come up with it, but he took it to another level. Who started it?

Rock bands in the 1960's and 1970's who suddenly demanded more than just some spotlight on the lead singer. They wanted big light shows with lots of colors and big colorful backdrops. Then they wanted explosions. Ozzy bit heads off on stage. Because they had to one up a fat guy dancing on TV. Then they had to top the guy gyrating his hips. Then they had to top the neon light show. And so on.

And this goes straight to music being art. Performance has become so ingrained, with bigger and bigger and bigger budgets for the derivative crap, they have to go out on a huge limb to draw an audience for a live performance. It’s not enough that every night is different, it’s got to be a real spectacle. So we got this:

Kinja'd!!!

So even without MTV, we would have ended up with this :

Kinja'd!!!

Which escalated to this:

Kinja'd!!!

Which culminated in this:

Kinja'd!!!

Now I’m not saying that it’s necessarily a bad thing, but, one-ups-manship for the sake of it? Yeah. Even if it’s yourself, there’s a point where it just gets pretty damn ridiculous.

But if you look at music history, well, you’re gonna see that same behavior going back 200+ years. Classical composers got as nasty as rappers with beef, and half the time it was with the people actually performing their music. So none of this is new, it’s just a whole new scale with all new technology.

And have some more awesome music you’ve never listened to . B ecause honestly, that’s really one of Deadmau5' weaker tracks. But it’s the only video with the Cube in full scale. So have one of his best:

And the original: