How can anyone trust BMW?

"Nauraushaun" (nauraushaun12) 12/12/2018 at 20:04 • Filed to: None

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I watched Doug’s video on the E60 M5. I love that car, I do, and so I find it sort of gutting that BMW could drop the ball so thoroughly on reliability. I know that it’s quite a complicated beast and expensive to repair by its nature - and maybe Doug was exaggerating a little - but even so. How can a company that’s been doing this for so long produce a flagship sedan that’s so incredibly bad?

And to take that further, how can people worship BMW the way some people do? How can you possibly support a company that would produce such a car, not to mention the general reputation among all its products for silly complexity and expensive repairs.

Maybe there’s something in my brain that’s just unable to accept this. I’m into (older) Japanese cars and one of the things I like is that they’re relatively uncomplicated and designed relatively well. If the opposite were true and my car, in this case a big beautiful powerful fancy BMW sedan, could grenade itself at any moment, I can’t imagine ever being happy with it. I’d feel betrayed at even the thought of it. I’d struggle to ever get over that betrayal and buy another BMW.

If anyone ever fawned over my M5 I’d feel like an imposter. Yes, I’d say, it’s very fast and all. But I’d know deep down that the price I’ve paid for such a trophy which could render itself worthless at any moment makes me a confirmed idiot, and any jealousy they might feel for me is badly misplaced.

I like the idea of BMW and I really do like this car. I think the styling has aged crazy well, it’s a car I always use for drifting in Gran Turismo. But it’s also a terrible, awful thing that I’d wish on nobody and that makes me sad.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > Nauraushaun 12/12/2018 at 20:07

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Because B R A N D

WilliamsSW > Nauraushaun 12/12/2018 at 20:13

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Doug exaggerates. Like all you tubers. But it is an unreliable car with high maintenance costs.

There are 2 kinds of bmw fans - those that love their older cars, which were generally more reliable and easier to maintain — and really have fantastic driving characteristics. But those people are usually realistic enough to understand that there’s a cost to those cars.

And then there’s the brand snobs who love their more recent crap. Performs well, has zero soul, and you don’t dar e own one out warranty ( much like their fan base tbh).

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > Nauraushaun 12/12/2018 at 20:13

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Doug, the type of guy to spend $15k on registration taxes on his Ford but complain about a $5k-$15K engine out service (F355) or a few 4 figure failures on an M5.

Flavien Vidal > Nauraushaun 12/12/2018 at 20:16

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Which is why you get an E39 M5 and just hope Vanos don’t go... Other than Vanos, it’s a pretty reliable car.

CB > Nauraushaun 12/12/2018 at 20:19

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If people cared about reliability, there wouldn’t still be MGs and Triumphs on the road.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > Nauraushaun 12/12/2018 at 20:21

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My friend had an E60 M5. That and the E90/92 M3 have significant rod bearing risks. Owners have been known to regularly send oil samples for lab analysis to hopefully catch the issue before they fail.

The fact that these are relatively low-volume M cars helps BMW get away with it.  Much like how Porsche got away with IMS failures from 2005-2009 because they were small in number, though catastrophic in nature.

Chariotoflove > Nauraushaun 12/12/2018 at 20:22

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The thing is, there is no reason to own an unreliable performance car with high maintenance costs (aside from emotional ones, I suppose) when you can own any number of reliable ones. High performance and reliability do not have to be mutually exclusive.

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > Nauraushaun 12/12/2018 at 20:24

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I neither own nor aspire to own any sort of BMW however, bear in mind that this car is now at very least 8 years old and runs a unique engine for BMW. They were designed as actual sports cars too and many of them have been used that way. Many many more have been used as look at me commuters and they’ve done so in one of the harshest automotive environments in the world (North America) by some of the worst drivers and vehicle carers known to man (North American BMW drivers)...one could argue that E 60 M5 were always doomed to get a reputation.

For Sweden > Nauraushaun 12/12/2018 at 20:28

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Because your other option for post-war German motoring was VEB Sachsenring and getting shot by the Stasi.

The Dummy Gummy > Nauraushaun 12/12/2018 at 20:33

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‘BMW could drop the ball so thoroughly on reliability’

Have you not been around for the last few decades?

Nauraushaun > The Dummy Gummy 12/12/2018 at 20:34

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But not like this! Not like THIS!

But even more so. How are they still one of the most successful car companies in the world? How can they be this bad, yet this profitable?

Nauraushaun > For Sweden 12/12/2018 at 20:34

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MY OPTION IS NON GERMAN

The Dummy Gummy > Nauraushaun 12/12/2018 at 20:35

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Image means everything to a lot of people. Capitalism.

The not like this really made me laugh haha

Nauraushaun > SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media 12/12/2018 at 20:35

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Haha, North American BMW drivers.

Maybe it is sort of a perfect storm there. But even so .

Nauraushaun > Chariotoflove 12/12/2018 at 20:36

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So then how do BMW keep getting away with it!? What you’re saying is that their competitors do the same thing better than they do. Capitalism says BMW shouldn’t be doing this well.

Nauraushaun > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 12/12/2018 at 20:36

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Ugh. I don’t like that. Small volume or not, BMW aren’t some weird hand-built upstart company. Like say, Tesla. They shouldn’t be building cars this bad.

Nauraushaun > CB 12/12/2018 at 20:37

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But but those are cheap shitboxes! Nobody is expecting $ 200k worth of “German engineering” in those

Nauraushaun > Flavien Vidal 12/12/2018 at 20:38

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I trust your judgement sir.

CB > Nauraushaun 12/12/2018 at 20:38

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My point stands. A car that breaks down is a car that breaks down. It’s what happens inbetween that gets people (and sometimes, the act of fixing it).

Nauraushaun > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 12/12/2018 at 20:39

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I really do think this is the reason. They don’t have to make good cars or reliable cars or competitive cars because they have such a strong BRAND.

What happens when that dries up? When the M brand is so diluted by M badges and M bumpers that it means nothing anymore? It can’t be sustainable!

Nauraushaun > WilliamsSW 12/12/2018 at 20:41

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I’m inclined to agree.

I think warranty is a big part of what protects BMW. The sort who really care about a snobby BMW badge on their car also care about having new stuff. This means trading in every 3-5 years, living off warranty, and not listening to the poor heathens who whine about the reliability of their 2005 model.

As long as BMW can foster these customers, their brand image stays intact. The buyers don’t see the truth

Chariotoflove > Nauraushaun 12/12/2018 at 20:43

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I’m not the best one to answer that. I’m not a BMW afficianado, so I don’t get the appeal myself. I’d buy Caddy first if I’m in that segment. But,  they are apparently very good to drive, right? And the crab is right, brand matters. Driving one tells the world you have succeeded and that you care about driving (which ironically more and more BMW drivers apparently don’t but want to look like they do). Most new Beemers (without checking the numbers, so take that for what it’s worth ) are probably leased, so maintenance issues aren’t so big .

nermal > Nauraushaun 12/12/2018 at 20:48

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It’s simple if you understand their business as well as their target market . The core concept is that BMW needs to sell new BMWs. They do not need to sell 10 yr old BMWs.

Who buys new BMWs and why? It ranges based on model. For new M5s, it’s probably some white collar professional (doctor / lawyer / etc), business owner, or higher up corporate type. I’d wager that the majority have incomes > $200k. They can afford an $80k - $100k car, and want to show that to the world. THESE PEOPLE ARE NEVER CONTENT WITH ANYTHING AND ALWAYS WANT MORE. 

The new M5 fits the bill - Looks and is fast and expensive, with the latest technology and coolest gizmos. It has presence when you arrive at a valet, or business meeting, or wherever you go to pick up a Russian hooker to pee on stuff for your entertainment.

What happens in 3 years? Your new M5 is now an old M5 and there is a new-er, fast-er, expensive-er, more-er one out. You DGAF about 10 yr old ones blowing up because you never have an out-of-warranty one. 

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > Nauraushaun 12/12/2018 at 20:57

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Because it’s the feeling you get from the car. Why do we talk about cars and why are cars such a good conversational topic over coffee or alcohol? Because they evoke emotion and experiences.

I get it, maintenance is money you never back and logically you’d want a car with little maintenance costs. Working on your car is also satisfying and relaxing as long as it’s not your only car that you rely on to get to where you need to go.

We like BMWs in the same way you like older Japanese cars. There is just something that speaks to us. For me it’s the history of the brand and the feeling of driving the car. The interior materials feel nice and it embodies you in a fortress of comfort. The car has a certain smoothness and refinement to it that I can’t explain place into words. BMWs are more like a significant other. You have to be willing to put in effort and time or you’ll be in for a lot of hurt. One you put in the effort though, you get rewarded with things that you wouldn’t in other relationships. Cars that can get repeatedly shit on and keep going are great, but it’s also like a relationship. If you have a partner who is okay with you constantly neglecting them then you’re not going to have the most rewarding or meaningful relationship compared to if you were to put in the effort.

TylerJ > Nauraushaun 12/12/2018 at 20:59

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My ‘1 3 328i has the N20 motor in it which has plastic timing chain guides that have a propensity to fail.

But damn if it isn’t the best driving vehicle I’ve been in. There’s not much choice in a RWD decent sized sedan. The Charger? Gigantic. Subaru? Headgaskets. (just kidding, they aren’t RWD) Lexus? They never go down in price.

People also lambast BMW and say their new interiors are junk, but my mom has a decked out ‘17 Tahoe, a friend has a ‘17 Mustang with the premium package, and the Bimmer has a much nicer interior than those by a large margin.

CompactLuxuryFan > Nauraushaun 12/12/2018 at 21:00

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Oh it’s drying up, and quick. That’s why they are making a turnaround. No, they won’t be going back to how they were in their ‘golden’ era. But they sell (and especially lease in the US) way more cars to way more people now. Making the new X3 and 3-series fun to drive was critical to the brand’s survival, if you ask me.

WilliamsSW > Nauraushaun 12/12/2018 at 21:03

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It’s not sustainable. They can milk their heritage for quite a while thanks to lease subsidies, but there will be hell to pay eventually. 

way2blu does a rev update > Nauraushaun 12/12/2018 at 21:05

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I made this one back when Infinity War came out, Vanos is still just as much a danger as ever though.

Nauraushaun > WilliamsSW 12/12/2018 at 21:19

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I bloody hope so.

Nauraushaun > TylerJ 12/12/2018 at 21:21

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So why can’t they do it without plastic timing chain guides? Why do they have to fuck it up? They’re only 100 years old..

Nauraushaun > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 12/12/2018 at 21:21

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That’s great. Really it is. But why can’t they be better? Why can’t they engineer out the critical faults?

Nauraushaun > nermal 12/12/2018 at 21:22

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Mmm I think you’re right. The sort of buyer giving BMW money are replacing their ride before warranty dies, forever obscuring the truth

Nauraushaun > way2blu does a rev update 12/12/2018 at 21:24

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I’m afraid I haven’t seen infinity war

interstate366, now In The Industry > Nauraushaun 12/12/2018 at 21:38

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I’m in agreement with you on this, but I’ve had this conversation before. To them, the hassle is worth it. Having experienced a few myself, I can’t say I agree with that  at all...I’d rather have something that’s 95% of the car for 50% of the upkeep.

Textured Soy Protein > Nauraushaun 12/12/2018 at 21:48

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BMWs may generally not be the most reliable cars ever but they're not all E60 M5s either.

RiceRocketeer Extraordinaire > Nauraushaun 12/12/2018 at 22:01

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They make engineering trade-offs that I can’t live with . Back when those trade-offs were to push the limits of high performance (e.g. 850i dual ECUs, etc) that might have been understandable, but now it feels like they’re pushing the limits of cost engineering (e.g. plastic chain guides) . Or just being plain stupid. Stuff like the E9X throttle body actuator ... it’s not like this was the first high performance V8 anyone’s ever made, right? What’s the upside of that?

Nauraushaun > interstate366, now In The Industry 12/12/2018 at 22:03

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Hi pokefriend

I agree. With your approach. I couldn’t deal with the crippling loss of a car dropping 50k in worth in a single day. No amount of pleasure will make that go away

Nauraushaun > RiceRocketeer Extraordinaire 12/12/2018 at 22:04

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I’m with you

DipodomysDeserti > Nauraushaun 12/12/2018 at 22:08

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High strung mechanical devices are finicky and have to be meticulously maintained. That’s part of the fun. I own old Japanese things that are like this, but they only have two wheels, and are a hell of a lot more fun than their four wheeled, boring brethren.

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > Nauraushaun 12/12/2018 at 22:18

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Because there becomes a point where it’s more cost effective to lose sales from people afraid of maintenance costs than to spend millions making something that would never fail for people who would never buy it in the first place.

It’s like how an iPhone has a glass back. People bitch about it being fragile and yet they still make it. If they were to make it so it’s fool-proof then they’d end up with something nobody would actually buy or could afford.

Yes, a Miata is reliable. But how much torque and HP does it make? How much of the interior is actually  materials that are nice to touch ? How comfortable is it? There’s always a trade-off. 

TylerJ > Nauraushaun 12/12/2018 at 22:25

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Hey, they upgraded that part, but there totally isn’t an issue with the old part. Nope, no way. We just upgraded the guides because we felt like it.

Kim Jong - Healthy > Nauraushaun 12/12/2018 at 22:47

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they made a hell of an inline engine...but the   v engine has a lot to be desired, reliability wise.

interstate366, now In The Industry > Nauraushaun 12/12/2018 at 23:31

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Yep. Nor can the thought of some random failure that costs $1000 or more to fix. Yearly.

Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief > Nauraushaun 12/12/2018 at 23:36

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E60 M5 owner checking in.

This is like asking why people trust heroin.

I’m not  wrapping tubing around my arm and flicking a needle but otherwise the expense and the high somehow seems worth it and I'll take another launch control hit please. 

merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc > nermal 12/12/2018 at 23:36

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Exactly.  They don’t give a damn about the cars after the first 50k.  That’s why they warranty and service them for that period of time.  That’s the first owner, and after that, they don’t care anymore.  They’ve made their sale.  

B_dol > Nauraushaun 12/13/2018 at 01:00

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Doug makes a living off views and click bait, hence a large dose of hyperbole. No high performance vehicle is going to be as cheap as you would like to maintain, JDM, European or American. Companies make engineering and marketing choices with the first owner in mind, and in the luxury car market that first owner rarely holds onto the car past 5 years.

TLDR: It’s impossible for a company to deliver a thrilling 100% bulletproof car at an affordable price.

My two used BMWs are  8+ years old with 80K+ miles and running like champs.

Nauraushaun > B_dol 12/13/2018 at 01:09

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It does make a lot of sense when you think about how much the first buyer matters to such a market.

Nauraushaun > Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief 12/13/2018 at 01:09

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Pls take me for a drive

dannyzabolotny > Nauraushaun 12/13/2018 at 01:31

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I love old BMW’s because they’re entertaining to work on. I enjoy repairing them and their mechanical issues often lead them to be much more affordable than a similarly specced “reliable” car. For example, I got an E60 M5 for $1500 because of a bad engine. I pulled the engine the other day, the new engine is on its way now. Where else do you get a 500hp V10 that revs to 8000rpm for that little money? Nowhere.

My love of fixing old BMW’s has led to my career of repairing old BMW’s, so it’s all been kind of a dream come true.

dannyzabolotny > way2blu does a rev update 12/13/2018 at 01:44

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A lot of people seem to have a misunderstanding of how Vanos works... it’s just variable valve timing. On most earlier BMW’s, Vanos failure just led to increased rattling and some loss in low-end power. Those are super easy to rebuild with new seals, so not really a big issue.

The later year BMW’s don’t have nearly as many Vanos issues, but they have other issues with the turbos and whatnot.

Really, the only two engines that had serious Vanos issues were the S85 V10 and the S54... the S85 used a high-pressure Vanos system that was failure-prone but even then it would just throw the engine into a limp mode at its worst. The only catastrophic Vanos failures were in the S54's where the Vanos oil pump disc tabs would occasionally break off and wreak havoc inside the engine, and/or the camshaft bolts would work themselves loose. Both easily fixable and bulletproofed if caught early enough.

dannyzabolotny > Nauraushaun 12/13/2018 at 01:45

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Because having bleeding-edge engineering does not always bode well for reliability. Like having a V10 that revs to 8000rpm in stock form is not good for longevity, but man is it awesome.

Nauraushaun > dannyzabolotny 12/13/2018 at 02:35

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Wow. That is pretty damn cool. For someone with the right skills.

You have the right skills.

dannyzabolotny > Nauraushaun 12/13/2018 at 03:25

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Yeah, it’s certainly not for everyone. If you bleed 10W60, like to make part store clerks really confused when asking for parts , and are entertained by the thought of pulling a massively overengineered  engine, then a BMW may be for you. Otherwise it’s best to just enjoy them vicariously, at least with the more explosive ///M variants like the E60 M5.

Monkey B > Nauraushaun 12/13/2018 at 07:41

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especially in Germany. T hey make it prohibitively pricey to legally keep older cars on the road...so much so that it makes more sense to buy new cars. At least that’s what I was made to understand. U.S. Military stationed over there would get some really cool cars on the cheap as I think they weren’t subject to the same regulations. Dunno if that part is the same or not as this information was 20 years ago.

I used to love BMW’s, but ownership of their newer products just isn’t worth the price of admission. There are countless options these days for nice looking cars that are fun to drive. Hell, Accords and Camry’s these days offer sporty looks and decent driving dynamics in the higher trim offerings. Even the styling of a lot of BMW and MB products are bland and lacking IMO. Audi, to me, makes an overall more attractive line up...but I wouldn’t consider a VW product at all.

Eury - AFRICA TWIN!!!!!!! > Nauraushaun 12/13/2018 at 09:22

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And then on cue, Hoovie buys one in exactly the wrong way.

That man exists to make me feel smart.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Nauraushaun 12/13/2018 at 09:27

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“ how can people worship BMW the way some people do?”

The feels...

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > dannyzabolotny 12/13/2018 at 09:28

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Please start a series of OPPO posts on this project! 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief 12/13/2018 at 09:29

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Pretty much.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Nauraushaun 12/13/2018 at 09:36

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It definitely is the reason for some.

As an E90 M3 owner, the only current BMW product I’m interested in owning is the M2. If a Japanese or Korean maker made a product that ticked all the same boxes (great handling, power, manual, design + back seat) , I’d be all over it, but they don’t.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Nauraushaun 12/13/2018 at 09:42

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It’s a racing motor in a family sedan.

https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1065981

dannyzabolotny > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 12/13/2018 at 11:41

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Will do!

Nauraushaun > Monkey B 12/13/2018 at 16:33

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Oh wow! I think Japan is the same. Changes the whole dynamic - there’d be less reason to make them reliable and less reason to maintain them as an owner, if the government will support you selling them when they get oldish.

I’m with you. I’m stuck on old cars. Modern BMW/MB are bland and lacking, so are modern Nissan/Honda/Mitsu/Toyota/everything. Fuck modern cars. Yes there are exceptions and I’d consider a new MX-5 or BRZ. But I’d rather an S2000 or the MR2 I already have ;)

Nauraushaun > Eury - AFRICA TWIN!!!!!!! 12/13/2018 at 16:33

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Haha! Man, I cannot wait to watch that.

Nauraushaun > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 12/13/2018 at 16:34

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I’d own an M2, definitely.

How did that combination you just mentioned become so hard to find? You’re not even asking for weird stuff like mid-engine, rear drive!

nermal > merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc 12/13/2018 at 16:34

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You’re kinda close. They give free maintenance to make sure it actually gets done by the original owner. That protects them when they re-sell the cars after the leases are up.

Nauraushaun > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 12/13/2018 at 16:35

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Oh but that’s not the V10 right?

Still cool, very cool. I’d like to say that the humble LS is also a V8 and also very capable of being raced but has a reputation for reliability. But you know

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Nauraushaun 12/13/2018 at 17:00

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The S65 is just 4/5 of the S85.

The LS is fantastic , but simple, and doesn’t rev nearly as high.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Nauraushaun 12/13/2018 at 17:00

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Right?! 

Trunk Impaired 318 > Nauraushaun 12/13/2018 at 19:55

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Gonna take a dive in here as a BMW guy:

With the S85 engine (V10 in the M5 and M6) it was effectively a flex from BMW, a look at what we can do and are going to put in a road car. Now unfortunately when you’re doing that with an engine that’s going in a road car, you’re going to run into major issues stemming with the fact that you cant build it as well as you know you can because of the cost. Costs are cut as much as they can be while still providing an incredible piece of engineering that will last a reasonable amount of time.

While it’s not a straight up racing engine, it does have a lot more in common with a competition engine than your run of the mill econobox. That means you need to adjust your perception on maintenance, longevity, etc. to fit accordingly. Back in the 80s, the BMW M12/13 (turbo F1 engine) could be made to make in the neighborhood of 1500HP in qualifying trim. T hat engine typically lasted a whole 10 minutes before completely destroying itself but it did exactly what it was supposed to: make a ton of power for a few flying laps. So while not as extreme, as a buyer the whole idea of the ///M line is that you’re getting racing technology in a street car, there’s always going to be compromises with that. 

Most German car makers have extensive recommended service intervals for all of their cars that shorten as performance goes up. They build parts knowing that they have a finite lifespan and expect you as the consumer to maintain it by their standards and replace things before they break. Sure the preventative maintenance is expensive but its a lot cheaper than what happens when its neglected time and time again.

A large part of the “unreliability” stigma that surrounds BMW, and other higher end manufacturers tends to be the result of the fact that so many of their cars are not initially bought/leased by enthusiasts. They get into the hands of the people who want the badge and “status” that comes with it. They skimp out on the recommended maintenance and create ticking time bombs, a problem which is only going to get worse as the cars become more and more complicated.

Now this certainly doesn’t mean that they don’t make colossal mistakes (looking at you plastic chain guides) but what major car company doesn’ t? Because of the initial price point and general public reputation of high end car companies, we tend to hold them to a higher standard and are more critical of them when they do stupid things.