Oppo confession

"If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent" (essextee) 12/03/2018 at 12:19 • Filed to: None

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I’m a big proponent of enjoying cars as they were built. I feel like if you have to modify a car in some drastic way in order to enjoy it, the car’s simply not a good match for you and you should try something else.

I think the only exception to this is with classics that NEED restomodding in order to be safe and reliable in modern traffic.

Also putting square headlights on an E30 should be punishable by death.

Nick Has an Exocet > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/03/2018 at 12:32

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Agree on the square headlights.

I think it depends. If you have a particular vision for what a car COULD be, then I say go for it. If you’re just modifying for the sake of modifying, you’re missing the point. Vision is everything.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/03/2018 at 12:39

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I don’t agree. There are things manufacturers cannot practically do, or should not do because they need to appeal to a wide audience.

An example would be exhaust, you may like it bit louder, while the average buyer of said automobile doesn’t want that. Audi S6 V10 would be an example, that thing can be made to sound glorious, but from the factory it’s a luxo-barge.

Miata, it would not be practical to set it up for auto-cross for the majority of its buyers, but many here on oppo, it’s the first thing they’d do once they get the Miata home.

I agree with you that there are mods that just don’t make any sense. But we can’t disallow that, while being okay with mods overall. Although I do believe in following safety (especially if it affects the safety of others) and environmental restrictions for the most part.

Future Heap Owner > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/03/2018 at 12:46

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This is a fine opinion, but I’m only commenting to say that I’m annoyed at you for getting that song stuck in my head.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 12/03/2018 at 12:47

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Counterpoint: You buy a 240sx for $3k. You then spend $1k each on suspension, wheels, and a turbo swap. Why not have taken that $6k and bought a well sorted 300ZX?

Similarly, the amount of money people spend modifying their base model E39s and E46s could easily buy the M versions of those cars.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Future Heap Owner 12/03/2018 at 12:49

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Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/03/2018 at 12:50

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Counter-c ounter point:

this person is the kind of person that has always dreamed of having a 240SX

and/or

this person thoroughly enjoys wrenching, upgrading his car, seeing the results of his/her labor, or simply has a shop do it and enjoys (mostly) only the latter.

We don’t modify cars because it makes financial sense, because yes, in that case we’d buy the 300ZX. But we could always be buying the next model up to buy our way into more performance straight out of the gate. But sometimes the journey is as important or more important than the destination.

jasmits > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/03/2018 at 12:55

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Because you would’ve still spent $1k each on suspension, wheels and bigger turbos and should’ve just spent $9k on a C5 Corvette and so on so forth until you’ve got no money or house, but hey at least you live in a 991 GT3

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 12/03/2018 at 12:57

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Perhaps it’s just me then. I’ve literally never sat in a car and been unable to enjoy it in some way. I’ve never thought “this would be a great car, if only _____ was different.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/03/2018 at 12:57

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Okay, but what if literally no manufacturer makes what you want, and you are able to ID something as a great starting point for that? It seems to me that if you flip this around, you’re saying somebody has to be happy with what’s on the market, exactly so... and that’s crazy. Rolling it further along to vehicle wear and age issues as opposed to how-the-manufacturer-made-it, or safety issues, how about improved tie rods when replacing worn-out, a newer style of power steering pump, or a dual-brakes/drum to disc conversion?

What makes alteration from “I don’t like it” forbidden and alteration from “it’s broken now” permitted?

I get that much of restomodding is tasteless and informed by an “insight” that ruins positive aspects (like wrecking the ride by going to rubber bands), but there’s a multiaxial spectrum here. No easy formal lines to be drawn.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > jasmits 12/03/2018 at 12:58

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I’d be able to have appreciate the stock 240SX as it is and  have fun with it   so this is all nonsense to me.

AestheticsInMotion > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/03/2018 at 13:00

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I’ll use Miatas as an example since that’s what I’m most familiar with.

For suspension, the amount of R&D that’s gone into aftermarket gear is mind-blowing. I can buy duel spring triple adjustable coilovers controlled on the fly in cabin, that also use GPS data to adjust automatically 100's of times per second. They’re on par comfort level with most modern-day luxury vehicles yet win high level motorsports competitions. There’s no possible way to have gotten a stock miata to that level from the factory.

Wheels? This one is simple. Mazda partnered with Enkei and BBS (among others) so most stock wheels are solid choices. That said, all other things being equal, lighter is better. Wider CAN be better, but lighter is always better. If I can shave 5 pounds off per corner of rotating mass via aftermarket wheels , that’s a huge difference in how the car feels, but it’s not something manufacturers put much effort into. When’s the last time you’ve seen a manufacturer publish wheel weight?

Overall, I could have bought a perfect E46 M3, mint S2000 or CTS-V for the price of what I've done to the Miata. But it would be a completely different car and not at all what I love about the Miata. Plus, it's the act of building the car that so many of us love. That part is just as good as great as the final product

Future Heap Owner > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/03/2018 at 13:01

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I’m telling the mods

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/03/2018 at 13:03

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I like OEM plus modifications similar to Textured Soy Protein’s BMW. And in general, I think it’s ok to modify to fit your tastes. But, I do like stock vehicles as well. There are a few things I want to do to my 348 but the more I look at it, the more I like it exactly how it came from the factory. I will probably do newer OEM Ferrari wheels and an exhaust one of these days. but I am in no rush.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 12/03/2018 at 13:06

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I did mention an exception to upgrading parts to make cars safe and reliable.

I’m not saying manufacturers should force feed us whatever they want, just that every car can be appreciated in some way and different cars are suited for different people . If you actually can’t find some redeeming qualities in any car that any ma nufacturer ha s made, then perhaps your standards are a bit unreasonable.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > AestheticsInMotion 12/03/2018 at 13:09

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But were you able to enjoy the stock Miata? 

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Future Heap Owner 12/03/2018 at 13:09

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I'll get it stuck in their heads too.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/03/2018 at 13:10

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What if you’re just trying to make it better at the thing you bought it for? Like you buy an AWD performance car for rally racing and such. But itll do it better if you scarifice it’s road manors for better suspension, tires, a roll cage, better seats, and a bit more power?

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 12/03/2018 at 13:12

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See? That’s perfectly sensible. T he point I’m trying to make is, if you feel absolutely compelled to slam your Civic and do a KHE738FJ38RU3I swap, then perhaps a Civic isn’t the kind of car you’re looking for.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > AestheticsInMotion 12/03/2018 at 13:13

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Plus that same Miata could also be modified for autocross, road racing, drag racing,  drifting, or Rally and be good at any of them.

AestheticsInMotion > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/03/2018 at 13:13

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Oh god yes. And I’ll probably get another one and keep it stock. They really are just a barrel of fun with zero modification needed. 

But I enjoy my crazy built  Miata ev en more, albeit in much different ways. 

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/03/2018 at 13:13

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If you actually can’t find some redeeming qualities in any car that any manufacturer has made, then perhaps your standards are a bit unreasonable.

But that’s a false dichotomy on two fronts. Nobody who wants a certain specific result is necessarily incapable of liking other cars, but if what he wants in general or in specific isn’t on the market... what he wants isn’t on the market. If he wants a short wheelbase vehicle that’s basically a Raptor but with an open cab, he’s probably going to mod up a Jeep... and Trail-Rated or not, that Jeep isn’t on the market until he’s made it.

The selection is not between liking and not liking the car once in hand either; there’s a whole range of liking and either not being wholly satisfied or chasing a mirage of That One Little Thing or some small detail to make it unique and personal. Sure, that can get carried away, the perfect is the enemy of the good, and so on, but there is a reasonable basis to take something and change it even if you like it. There are shades involved.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/03/2018 at 13:15

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But have you done any competitive racing? Personally I haven’t either, but if small changes can help you be more competitive in you class than why not make them. Not to mention that just buying a different car could put you in a different class, one which that car isn’t competitive in, even tho it is faster than the car you staggered out with. 

RallyWrench > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 12/03/2018 at 13:16

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Yeah, hi, I would like an amphibious Ranchero with a 3-speed column shift turned into a 4-speed, what do you have on the lot? 

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/03/2018 at 13:17

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I failed to include: I know you mentioned the safe and reliable standard, which is why I highlighted it. I’ll restate: Why is safe and reliable acceptable for restomodding, and roadholding isn’t? Why isn’t exhaust tone? Is comfort? There is no magic line delineating a special category of Safe from Unsafe, and a ‘60s car on fat wide rubberband tires will likely be safer than original... but ride comparatively like shit, just as a forinstance. And it will be completely different in experience.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > RallyWrench 12/03/2018 at 13:18

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I thought I hid the personal anecdote thing better. Somewhat. Maybe.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles 12/03/2018 at 13:18

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I have not. But if I did I wouldn’t be racing to compete. I’d be racing for fun. And I could have a hoot  racing a bone stock minivan.

jasmits > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/03/2018 at 13:20

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Modifying cars is fun though! Like on the most basic level(exhaust, wheels, tires, suspension) what an enthusiast considers good things may be bad things for the vast majority of the population, to whom the automaker is interested in selling cars. Like on my Range Rover, the loud exhaust, lift kit and safari rack would’ve all been annoying to the original owner who wanted a luxury SUV to take skiing, as they make it noiser, ruin the on road handling and make it even noisier respectively but to me using it as a trail beater/expedition vehicle they make it more enjoyable for me personally and enhance the vehicle’s capabilities to make it do a better job of the specific things I use it for.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 12/03/2018 at 13:25

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Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of things I’d like to do to my car. It could use maybe 50 more hp, and another gear, and a less floppy ride. But I feel no compulsion to go out and do those things because it’s still a great car as is an d I love dr iving it. Forgive me for anthropomorphizing, but I feel like modifying it like that would be insulting to it.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > jasmits 12/03/2018 at 13:35

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cars are full of compromise. Modifying   a car focuses it in the area YOU want it focused on.

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/03/2018 at 13:50

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I do substantial re-engineering on the side and yes most of it is arguably insane, but rarely do I change the fundamental character of the car. And let me tell you, this is definitely the wrong take.

OE’s cheap the fuck out. They cut corners. They have to comply with emissions. They have to deal with fuel mileage. They have to be positive it will at least as long as the warranty. They have to make a profit. They have to compromise every single aspect of every single car in order to attract the widest customer base possible. These are just the facts of things.

If I completely redo the suspension on a car, it’s not because it was built wrong, or it’s the wrong car for someone. It’s because I have to basically undo the manufacturer’s compromise. They needed to sell it as a sedan to the mean average sedan customer ask. Which means it’s still too stiff for some customers, too soft for others, but close enough to sell twenty thousand cars.

Manufacturers are in the business of selling cars. NOT building optimal cars. Period. If they build the ‘perfect’ sedan with a big V8, a 6 speed, and still compromised but somewhat good handling? Well hey guess what - they sold less than 4000 per year and lost money on it despite the tooling already having been paid off. That’s why you won’t see another Chevy SS.

Again: the job of a manufacturer is to sell as many cars as possible. People complain about the Porsche 996 and onward being so much ‘softer’ than the earlier generations, but guess what? They sold over 175,000 996's. Guess how many 993's? 68,000. How many 964's? Just 63,762 over 5 years or about 12 ,000 per year. The 997, over a 7 year run, sold over 210,000 examples . That’s literally triple the peak annual sales of the 993.

That’s what they need to do if they want to keep making cars. Simple as that. And that means compromising on every single aspect of a car. Cheaper materials. More heavy ‘luxury’ appointments. Softer suspensions. Detuning the engine to make it last longer. Offering automatics by default.

Which is why I do what I do. Compromises do not mean the car is wrong. Either the bones are good, or the bones are bad. There is no in-between. Just because I have to weld the shit out of a chassis does not even IMPLY that the chassis has shortcomings or is the wrong chassis. It means ONLY that the manufacturer shipped the car with more body flex to improve ride quality for the average customer, and reduced cost by reducing the number of welds . And the best way to address that is to spend money increasing the number of welds.

Perfect example of this: the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X. The US version is a car of compromises. But are we really going to claim that wanting significantly more power or stiffer suspension or less body flex makes it the wrong car? Of course not. But in the same way that it ships as a collection of compromises, anything I do to it? It’s just different compromises. Sure, I can uplift it to the UK-offered FQ400 engine. Now your service interval is 2500 miles and you get 6MPG. Sure, I can make it grip better - now you can’t hear the stereo over the road noise and every pothole in the road is a chance to crack a tooth. And these are NOT insubstantial modifications. You’re talking about a cost that quickly approaches the original MSRP of the car.

It’s just how it is.

Junkrat aka Rick Sanchez: Fury Road Edition > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/03/2018 at 13:50

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You are making Project Binky feel sad. 

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/03/2018 at 13:50

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But do believe my car was great before I made modifications to it. But it’s just fun to wrench, tune or otherwise do something to your car.

It’s just like a kitchen remodel or a even something as simple as a coloring book. We enjoy putting work into something that has a tangible and/or perceptible improvement. Some people do it purely for that, probably even more people then also thoroughly enjoy the fruits of their labor.

There’s nothing wrong with wanting to keep a car stock, some people are actually obsessed with that to a fault, numbers matching and such. It’s a car-scene in itself, that of being as stock (appearing) as possible.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/03/2018 at 13:53

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here’s the thing.

Improvements feel good.

If you have a house that you like,you renovate the bathroom. and when your’e done it’ll feel good to see your house go from a house you liked, to a house you like even more. Itll also feel good knowing YOU made it better.

Yeah you could have moved into a house with nicer bathroom, but you like the house you have.

It the same with modifying cars

CobraJoe > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/03/2018 at 14:03

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I feel like if you have to modify a car in some drastic way in order to enjoy it, the car’s simply not a good match for you and you should try something else.

It took me owning several cars I ended up disliking before I realized this truth.

The last car I sold was an ‘05 Legacy GT. Turns out, I don’t like laggy turbos, grippy AWD, sloppy shifters, or undersized seats. I got to the point of dreaming about doing an LS/RWD swap, with a tighter suspension, and aftermarket seats... and then I realized that I was literally dreaming of building it into a completely different vehicle, and if I did build it, I’d still be stuck with a slightly too small sedan. Might as well start with a different vehicle that’s closer to my ideal finished product instead.

That being said, I know that what I want is probably never going to be built by any modern manufacturer, so I still have dreams of doing major modifications to a car to build it, but Volvo never made a V8 powered RWD and manual V50, so I’m back to dreaming. 

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/03/2018 at 14:09

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I generally agree with this. At least aesthetically. Performance wise though, most cars are not built from the factory to be trackable. Especially older cars that are actually affordable to get on the track. Adding proper springs or coilovers that might be awful on the street but right at home on the track. Using lower treadware tires, lighter wheels, and things like sway bars are all simple mods but so necessary. Then you run into things that are “reliability” mods for turbo cars. There is just a lot of compromise to make a car streetable from the factory and removing that compromise to make a better track car is ideal. 

CobraJoe > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 12/03/2018 at 14:19

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I don’t agree. There are things manufacturers cannot practically do, or should not do because they need to appeal to a wide audience.

I’m pro-modification for this very reason. I’m more than willing to sacrifice some comfort or luxury for a more entertaining driving experience, and I know I’m in the minority there.

However, it took me too long to realize that modifications aren’t a cure if you don’t like the inherent nature of the car. If you like big displacement NA V8s, a 4cyl turbo will never match that feeling. RWD will never drive like AWD. Automatics are never the same as manuals.

It takes major surge ry to change the personality of the car, either engine swap, trans swap, driveline conversion, body chopping, etc.  And if you’re willing to go that far to create what you want, maybe it would be better to start with something else instead. 

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Junkrat aka Rick Sanchez: Fury Road Edition 12/03/2018 at 14:22

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I've never watched project Binky.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > CobraJoe 12/03/2018 at 14:34

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All very good points. And I think for most people it probably makes sense to start with something that’s close(ish) to what you need so that you at least have the engine/drivetrain you need to get to where you want to be.

After that it either takes extensive access to tools and know-how and/or a very high budget. And either way, a lot of patience.

CobraJoe > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/03/2018 at 15:04

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Counterpoint: You buy a 240sx for $3k. You then spend $1k each on suspension, wheels, and a turbo swap. Why not have taken that $6k and bought a well sorted 300ZX?

Several reasons.

1. You can modify exactly what you want to improve. Want more power, but you’re ok with the suspension? Then don’t buy parts for the suspension! If you buy the “upgrade vehicle” you still might not like the stock power levels.

2. You can often build a faster vehicle for less than the purchase price of the “Sports model”. The built vehicle probably will be less comfortable and less easy to handle, but also better suited for the exact task you want it to do.

3. You can learn a ton about your car by modifying it. Crawling under the car and disassembling it reveals a lot of additional details and potential problems that you would otherwise never notice.

4. Modifications often aren’t much more expensive than repairs. Need new struts? You could buy high quality non-OEM replacements, or you could spend a little bit more and get high quality performance oriented struts , or you could spend a lot more and get coilovers. $1500 for coilovers doesn’t seem like quite so much when you’d need to spend $600-$1000 for OEM struts, springs, and hardware.

5. Paying for parts is far more flexible than paying for a loan. Additionally, i nsurance and sales tax are probably cheaper .

6. Maybe the performance variant just isn’t feasible. 240SX vs 300ZX is an extremely close comparison, but few “upgrade vehicles” are that close. A Focus ST has far more utility than a Mustang. A mini-truck will have far more cargo capacity than a sports sedan.  Sports wagons are extremely rare . Sometimes you need the seats and storage even though you want more speed.

Long_Voyager, Now With More Caravanny Goodness > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/03/2018 at 16:22

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Counterpoint: I enjoy taking mundane/cheap vehicles and making them do things they weren’t intended for.

Ex. Off-road minivan.

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/03/2018 at 16:53

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Many times, when it comes to engine swaps, there are much better cars for less than the cost of the swap. I guess it’s cool for uniqueness or whatever, but I’ve never been a huge fan of swaps. I will make an exception for V8 Miatas though haha

Junkrat aka Rick Sanchez: Fury Road Edition > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 12/03/2018 at 21:23

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I agree. I look at modifications as shifting the compromise to something I can live with, not what someone else can live with. 

Junkrat aka Rick Sanchez: Fury Road Edition > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/03/2018 at 21:30

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If you are interested engineering and fab work it’s worth your time, especially if you like Naked Gun.

itranthelasttimeiparkedit > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/03/2018 at 22:48

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ooooh I kind of want to put square headlights on my e30 now, totally changes the look!

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > itranthelasttimeiparkedit 12/03/2018 at 22:57

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I'm reporting you to the mods

itranthelasttimeiparkedit > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/04/2018 at 07:54

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oooooooooo and stanced!

KnowsAboutCars > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/04/2018 at 14:06

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I don’t think it’s about being able enjoy something. I can enjoy my beater but that hasn’t stopped me from thinking that it would be cool to engine swap and bag it.

Some people enjoy letting their creativity flow and make something extraordinary out of an ordinary object. But you do you preserving cars stock is cool too.

Nauraushaun > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 12/04/2018 at 17:31

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I agree. I just want an MR2 as Toyota intended.

I find that people who view cars as a canvas. Like, if it had no spoiler they add one. If it had a spoiler they remove it.

It’s not about personalizing or customizing or performance. It’s about changing stuff so you feel good about yourself. They’ll tell you it’s for performance but the vast majority of mods have no impact on performance at all.

It’s silly and the square lights up there are a good example. It's all wank.