Current work situation

"Tristan" (casselts) 11/19/2018 at 23:36 • Filed to: None

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Due to the recent good economy, we’ve had approximately 50-60% of our people leave in favor of better paying private sector jobs. Being a government organization, it’ll be roughly 2 more years before our pay catches up to our civilian counterparts.

Today I observed that we have 3 mechanics on dayshift, 2 supervisors, and one work lead... Leadership to actual workers has reached a 1:1 ratio.

There’s still 4 of us on nights...

Of the 7 who remain, 2 are retiring in the next 6 months, one may be forced out for medical reasons, and another just put in his 2 weeks for a better paying job elsewhere within the organization.

It’s gonna be a rough couple of years.

Ash78, voting early and often > Tristan 11/19/2018 at 23:51

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And it’ll be 10 years before your cost of healthcare benefits catches up with the private sector. At some point soon, those people will look down and say “Do you remember when going to the doctor was a $20 copay? Pepperidge Farm remembers.”

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > Tristan 11/19/2018 at 23:53

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Don’t work in gub’ment, but we’ve had really high turnover the last two years. People used to leave competitors to work for us; now people are leaving for entirely different careers. One acquaintance quit for  a $10/hr raise(!!!) at an entry level job at Microsoft. New hires seem to expect raises and perks immediately. I used to make $10/hr, now I’m surrounded by people *starting* at $17 who are all complaining they don’t get paid enough... And thus they have the output and punctuality of someone making $10/hr today.

Chariotoflove > Tristan 11/20/2018 at 00:00

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Ash is right, the biggest advantage of a government job is the benefits.

wafflesnfalafel > Tristan 11/20/2018 at 00:03

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yep - we are top of market here, just topped out. Next 18 months will be buttoning up existing projects then starts the slide down the back side...

Nick Has an Exocet > Tristan 11/20/2018 at 00:11

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I’m out of touch with the real world. Living in the Bay Area really screws with you. I make $100k/yr but need to have a roommate.

I just got a $65k/yr raise (to $165k) but the company won’t honor until some time before July next year.

I just made a job offer (their salary expectation +$5k) to someone who would work for me (and will be making more than me until my mysterious raise kicks in), and it sounds like they might not want it because of our benefits package.

Meanwhile, we’ve hired a ton of people OUT of government. Many of which can’t email, won’t accept a meeting after 3:30 pm, and are making significant amounts of money (average probably around 1/4M per year) .

Nothing makes sense. 

promoted by the color red > Nick Has an Exocet 11/20/2018 at 00:17

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Meanwhile, we’ve hired a ton of people OUT of government. Many of which can’t email, won’t accept a meeting after 3:30pm, and are making significant amounts of money (average probably around 1/4M per year).

My favorite are the people “too busy” to do their job, like the city inspectors who didn’t honor their appointments and never rescheduled or how I have to call John Doe and explain this spreadsheet to him over the phone because he’s was “too busy” to read email I sent him (or figure out how to spell my name) , per this email from Upper Management.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > wafflesnfalafel 11/20/2018 at 00:36

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I’m dreading the slide. I think I can hold on but the 2008-2010 range was brutal.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Tristan 11/20/2018 at 00:37

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We are loosing engineers to government positions, comparable pay and oh my the benefits!!!

Tristan > Ash78, voting early and often 11/20/2018 at 00:59

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Average cost for premiums across the country is $440/month . I pay $250 every 2 weeks, soooo...

Tristan > Chariotoflove 11/20/2018 at 01:03

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Thrift savings plan and a pension. Health care premiums are equal to the private sector. We go back and forth between my work’s coverage and my wife's depending on who has the best option year by year.

Tristan > Nick Has an Exocet 11/20/2018 at 01:11

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The job market is insane right now! I love my job, but it's tempting to take something with better pay and come back to it when the pay catches up.

Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen > Tristan 11/20/2018 at 01:23

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How the fuck do you justify 3 managers for 3 workers? Good practice as optimized by militaries worldwide over the last couple of thousand years says managing 8-10 people is a full time job. So your team needs one foreman who spends half their time hands -on. 

imadick > Tristan 11/20/2018 at 04:47

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It’s not a real government org until leadership outnumbers front line workers 2:1. So you got a ways to go

Tristan > Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen 11/20/2018 at 04:53

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One for the ”outside” crew and one for the in-shop crew and the big boss who oversees everything and deals with personnel issues (he literally does NOTHING all day). Usually we have a lot more people... Like 20ish rather the current 7.

Kiltedpadre > Chariotoflove 11/20/2018 at 05:57

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I recently left a government job for the private sector and part of the reason was the benefits. My insurance cost went down, and I have significantly better coverage. Before that I was with in a different municipality, and the coverage was even worse, but at least it was fairly cheap.

The pension plan was nice, but it was funded by having 10% deducted from my pay. I now have a 401k where my employer not only matches the 4% I contribute, but they add another 5% as well.

Most of my coworkers came from government jobs because the pay and benefits are no longer competitive with the private sector.

merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc > Tristan 11/20/2018 at 06:59

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Seeing the comments here only one thought keeps coming to mind. The grass is always greener on the other side.

I’ve thought about changing companies at times, but I’ve been super fortunate to not have to travel as much anymore.  Sure the job assignments aren’t my favorite, but it keeps me close to home and it pays the bills.  Contentment isn’t a bad word like people make it seem these days.  Contentment sure is a lot less stressful than always looking for that next best thing.  But to each their own.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc 11/20/2018 at 08:58

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As long as you’re being paid a fair wage and the work isn’t killing you slowly with stress, I completely agree.

fintail > Tristan 11/20/2018 at 09:26

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This is a fun reflection on the true health of the economy - employment might be impressive, but wage gains are sad and not legitimately improving (not to mention the socio-economic issue hastened since the trickle down con).

I have a friend who has worked in similar roles in private and public sector organizations (dealing with land use and zoning).  He left the public sector for the private, lured in by pay - but found he had to work a lot more, and the benefits weren’t nearly as good.  So after a few years, he went back - he looks at it kind of like 80% of the pay for 70% of the work and 180% of the benefits.

merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 11/20/2018 at 09:46

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Yes, true.  The stress thing is huge to be able to avoid.  

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc 11/20/2018 at 09:54

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No $$$ is worth dealing with that every day  (unless you can make enough to set you up for life in like 5 years or something).

Chariotoflove > Tristan 11/20/2018 at 10:57

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If she’s in that sector of the private sector with stable pension and good healthcare, then you guys are in great shape.   Where I am in state employ, I don’t think I could hope for better. 

Chariotoflove > Kiltedpadre 11/20/2018 at 11:00

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Wow. That means you have a good corporation with a stable benefits system. Awesome. I’m in state employ. I don’t know how that compares with municipal government benefits. We max out our health savings account and our employer matching to the retirement plan. Dental and vision are okay.

Tristan > fintail 11/20/2018 at 13:42

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In your rush to call out the evils of capitalism and supply side economics you missed the part where I said people are leaving what was considered a good-paying job just a couple of years ago for better paying jobs elsewhere that either didn’t exist then or have increased hiring and wages since then . Private sector companies have the freedom to adjust pay to attract talent, whereas the government is mired in red tape. My upper leadership has submitted a request for a 30% raise for their workers. It’ll take 2 years to get anywhere on that, meanwhile our workforce continues to diminish. There are 7 million unfilled positions in the US right now. Companies need people more than the people need the companies. It’s a great position to be in as a worker and gives the worker the power to negotiate for more pay and creates the necessity for the company to offer higher pay.

What’s your take on NY’s decision to grant $1.2 billion in tax breaks to Amazon in return for $27.5 billion in tax revenue that will be gained by having Amazon’s headquarters? Is this another case of “trickle-down” economics that doesn’t work, or is it a case of $27.5 billion going back into the local coffers to pay for better roads and better schools? Should NY have adopted the Keynesian model and redistributed that $1.2B to the 19,850,000 people of New York to the tune of $60.45 apiece? 

Stef Schrader > Tristan 11/20/2018 at 14:09

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Current work situation: E verything is trash and I still can’t find a full-time job.

TBH, at least you have something, even if it’s less than ideal. I’d definitely be looking elsewhere now, though?

fintail > Tristan 11/20/2018 at 14:29

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Those ex-employees might be getting ahead of themselves when this overheated economy cools off, and they are left without the protection and benefits of a public sector job, both of which seldom exist outside the protected circle. Companies need people more than vice versa, indeed - yet wages have lagged productivity for a long time, and the socio-economic gap is greater than at any time since before the depression. Wages simply haven’t reflected the other strengths in the economy, and cast a pall on claims of such strength. One can go on all they want about how great it is to be a worker and there’s a necessity for higher pay, but for most, it isn’t reflected in reality, yet anyway. If the red tape is so bad, why don’t you find greener pastures too? I am always amused at how so many who decry big government use it as their career.

Not sure how the Amazon tangent/whataboutism comes into play. We’ll see the benefit of that claimed 27.5BN when it happens (or even an independent audit of such claims) , and of course, no mention of the negative externalities. Fintail shrugged again, I guess the markets are taking care of it.

Tristan > fintail 11/20/2018 at 16:07

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Economic policy over the last 35 years has avoided low unemployment numbers in an attempt to curb inflation. If unemployment is high, companies can get a bargain on labor. Why pay workers more than the going rate when there are a hundred other unemployed workers out there who would gladly do the job? And while wages have seen slow growth, the cost of goods that improve quality of life have dropped due to low barriers to trade.

Yes, the red tape is bad, but the government moves slowly by design. Would I like competitive pay? Yes. Do I want to take my skills and work somewhere else? Not really. I derive a tremendous sense of pride and contentment from my career. Job satisfaction is more important than more money. My complaints stem from the fact that I’m watching my coworkers file out the door leaving me to pick up the slack, and there’s no sign of the situation getting anything but worse in the coming months. Do I depend on big government for my living? I suppose. But only 15% of GDP goes into defense spending vs. 21% towards entitlements.

The Amazon tangent is an example of supply side economics at work. Yes, there are negative externalities such as a greater demand on the local labor market and the local infrastructure. The $ 27.5B is the tax revenue Amazon will pay over the next decade. I bring it up of just one of the many examples of supply side economic policy at work. How many times have we seen Keynesian “economic stimulus ” packages fail or produce minuscule economic growth? Is that more “whataboutism”?

Also, please explain “whataboutism”. I see this tactic deployed a lot lately when a quantifiable example failures or successes that is damaging to one’s outlook is brought up.

And please don’t take any of this argument personally-it’s just political disagreement . I genuinely like you as a person, and I’ll readily apologize if I’ve said anything offensive.

fintail > Tristan 11/20/2018 at 16:23

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Unemployment is relatively low and has been for some time, and employers are still getting a bargain, relative to productivity data. I don’t see any sign of this changing, and it is in direct opposition to a claim of a truly healthy economy - at least one where most players are seeing a legit benefit. I don’t know if low trade barriers have gifted us with cheap gadgets, rather, taking advantage of exploitative production systems where items are made in conditions (and IP theft environments) that wouldn’t and shouldn’t exist here, and the overall cheapening of technology with time. Cars were toys for the rich in 1900, radios were toys for the affluent in 1910, TVs were amazing in 1946, mobile phones were exotic in 1985; 20 years later, all were normal for any working class person. Trade barriers didn’t do most of it, rather, efficiency and and advancement .

If you’re content overall, then the red tape and slow movement of your employer really isn’t so bad then, right? Plenty of bureaucracy in the private sector too, even if it tends to move faster.

Entitlements - a word even more fun than whataboutism. Who defines it? It seems a lot of perks of the On that subject, I see no data showing Amazon wouldn’t have chosen that location without the tax gift. It’s a tangent, and I don’t see correlation making causation for this specific case. Whataboutism = “what about this” line of thought, either to distract by bringing up an unrelated evil, or an unrelated event in general.

No credible economist that I know of has claimed trickle down dogma created real sustainable gain for more than just a few, and the widening socio-economic gap over the past 35 years speaks for itself as the ultimate failure of this experiment.

No worries, I am not taking it personal. I don’t see trickle down dogma creating much of a future. In my experience, those who live in mature democracies with developed economies (the US has both) who don’t think that tax breaks for the top few will somehow create that rising tide have a better quality of life than those elsewhere. But they don’t tend to be temporarily embarrassed millionaires.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > Nick Has an Exocet 11/20/2018 at 22:27

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Part of me wonders what it would be like to work in the Bay area. I think I'd fit right in (MSc in computer science), but I suspect I still might come out ahead living in the small southern Alberta city where I currently am. Living expenses here are more reasonable, and there's family here, but those six figure salaries do sound awful tempting at times.

Nick Has an Exocet > BaconSandwich is tasty. 11/20/2018 at 22:44

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Unless you have an income over 200k/yr, you can’t afford a house here. Which means you’re renting. Have yourself a 1 bedroom apartment with parking for $5300. Yeah, that’s $63k/yr for rent. You can do it cheaper, sure, but you’re not exactly going to living that 6 six figure life with roommates . 

Tristan > fintail 11/21/2018 at 14:10

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I agree 100% that taking advantage of exploitative production systems and increases in efficiency and advancements in technology have made gadgets cheaper, but it’s our low barriers to trade that support exploitative labor. China allows their citizens to work in truly abhorrent conditions, but we Americans are a-okay with this as long as they keep our Wal-Marts stocked with cheap plastic baubles.

Overall contentment does not in any way mean that I think everything is perfect. I love my wife, but sometimes she burns the meatloaf. I love my truck, but it’s currently slobbering power steering fluid all over my driveway. I love my house, but it’s a never-ending list of huge, expensive projects. I love my job, but I have clueless supervision, a dwindling crop of colleagues, and any improvement to that situation is mired in red tape. Yet, I still go in to work with a smile knowing I get to work on bad ass stuff and I take a lot of pride in what I do. That’s how life works. You take the good with the bad, and as long as the good:bad ratio is favoring the good you’re set. A few years ago I was doing nearly the same job in Florida for an organization with absolute shit leadership and the worst morale this side of a prison wall. I lost 3 friends to suicide while working there. The bad vastly outweighed the good, but with a few changes that the organization was unwilling to consider it could have been an amazing place to work. Contentment isn’t complacency.

en·ti·tle·ment pro·gram
noun
plural noun: entitlement programs

a government program that guarantees certain benefits to a particular group or segment of the population.

*Correction to my previous statements: The $27.5BN in tax revenue will come over a 25 year span, not 10 years. Still a damn fine return on investment. I will concede that I have seen no data showing Amazon wouldn’t have chosen NY without the tax gift, but it no doubt greased the wheels. If DeBlasio would have increased tax rates for Amazon, would they have chosen NY?

So if not supply side economics, what do you propose to make regions of the US or the US as a whole more attractive to business? How do we incentivize companies like HP and Apple to stop supporting the terrible conditions in China and look to the US for production without pricing themselves out of the market? Should we be placing more political pressure on China to adopt better environmental policy and focus on better working conditions?  

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > Tristan 11/21/2018 at 16:34

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Should we be placing more political pressure on China to adopt better environmental policy and focus on better working conditions?

I’d think if China follows the same arc as most industrialized nations their expanding middle class will demand it. Regarding environmental policy, it’s hard for the US to dictate to anyone about better environmental policy considering the backwards steps we’ve made with EPA and pulling out of the Paris Accord.

fintail > Tristan 11/21/2018 at 20:06

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I don’t know if cheap labor is the main factor in more accessible tech, though. I believe both it and efficiency are the factors, but the latter is more significant. Being able to buy from social and environmental evildoers is definitely the key behind the sweatshop baubles that keep the American masses distracted from their own declining quality of life, and that distraction is a big reason for our obscene willingness to ignore trade issues. it’s funny how some on both sides of the aisle espouse free or fair trade, but will never go after the real troublemakers.

Hey, you’re not in FL, you should be happy. Cool place to visit, wouldn’t want to live there. I just got back from a couple weeks in the upper midwest, and I will still take this overpriced crazytrain full of clueless leftists and bitter rightists over virtually anywhere else in the nation. If it isn’t so bad, maybe it isn’t bad enough to make posts complaining about it :) I think no jobs are free from irritations. But at the same time, many could be better, especially in terms of pay and benefits, areas that have lagged even during supposedly hot economies, no matter who is in the oval office at the time, as the same interests are the real winners no matter. Many who tout supposedly strong economies perpetually ignore these issues.

I know the definition of entitlements, but who defines what is included? One could include large swaths of the military-industrial complex (the one an actual respectable R warned us about) in that, as connected firms consume endless funds with no accountability, and act like it is a god-given right. Visit suburban DC, those people are living a high life and abusing de facto entitlements much more than people trying to get a real COLA from their social security, or medical coverage equivalent to true first world nations. If the government is to trim entitlements, it needs to do so in many directions.

That 27.5 BN is theoretical, and I suspect the claim hasn’t been analyzed. Reminds me of the claims of benefits created by publicly funded sports arenas, where sometimes the reality is the money would be more efficiently spent simply giving it away. I am not sure if DeBlasio increasing taxes on a specific company is relevant - I don’t recall any plan to do so, nor anyone in his gang wanting a tax on a specific firm. As corporate largesse hits record levels, why should bribes be needed at all?

Make regions more attractive to business - simplified corporate tax code with effective rates in line with other developed first world nations, punitive measures for those who support social and environmental criminals, overhaul the education system to support needed skill training rather than for-profit loan-driven degrees, move to a single payer health system as exists in every nation we compete with, overhaul personal tax rates similar to a time when some claim America “was great” and use the funds for infrastructure and human develop,ent. China should be pressured to modernize human rights and environmental issues, although is inching forward, it is still a repressive totalitarian dictatorship. Another goodie - ban the flight of usually sketchy capital from China into American markets, especially real estate. A pipe dream, I know, when the son of a conman son-in-law of a conman actually hawks this pay for play residency that benefits a system creating much ire in ours. But it also creates those distracting baubles, and that might be a key to the endgame.