Fathers of daughters?

"ZHP Sparky, the 5th" (e30s2k)
11/16/2018 at 14:42 • Filed to: None

As some of you may know, as of recently I’m a father to a baby girl (holy shit, she’s 6 months old today).

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About t he FP article about women paying more transit costs linked above ….the article itself getting light made me hopeful, as did some of the initial comments. But then I kept digging. Things I read people say/imply –

- It’s equally shitty or worse to go through life worrying about being accused of rape, than to go through life worrying that you might get raped

- Study focused on upper middle class women, so maybe they use alternatives to the train at night purely for convenience (why at any higher rate than men of the same socioeconomic class???)

- Study focused on rich people who do this for convenience, so for non-rich people this really isn’t a problem ( seriously, you think poor people live safer lives than those in safer communities???)

As men we are pretty shitty at telling other men to cut it out when they’re being assholes. Was true in grade school, is true now. An overwhelming majority of the people being sexually abused are women. An overwhelming majority of the people doing the abusing are men. Yes there is some population of false claims that deserve attention and punishment. But putting that ahead of the rest…well, I guess it’s par for the course in a male dominated world.

Every day I hope that the world will be a more equal and less dangerous place for women by the time my kid is venturing in to it on her own. Every day I am made less hopeful of that through my observations too. And of course we now have a president in the oval office championing this whole mens right movement and how tough it is being a guy. FFS.

DISCUSSION (33)

For Sweden > ZHP Sparky, the 5th
11/16/2018 at 14:48

True

You don’t need daughters to have empathy

CalzoneGolem > For Sweden
11/16/2018 at 14:49

Bam! There it is.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > ZHP Sparky, the 5th
11/16/2018 at 14:54

Every day I am made less hopeful of that through my observations too.

J ust based on the women I’ve dated and the varying degrees of things they’ve endured. And I’m talking about more than an asshole boyfriend and a shitty date here and there. It’s all very disheartening.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > ZHP Sparky, the 5th
11/16/2018 at 14:59

Who ever said this should be punched in the face.

- It’s equally shitty or worse to go through life worrying about being accused of rape, than to go through life worrying that you might get raped

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > For Sweden
11/16/2018 at 15:01

Oh absolutely. You just need to be a decent human being who’s not a self-involved dick. Should’ve made that clearer, just meant that ESPECIALLY having a kid who is my entire world it just makes you think about this stuff that much more.

Tripper > ZHP Sparky, the 5th
11/16/2018 at 15:02

Mine will be 5 months in a few days. What up, same time dads?

CalzoneGolem > ZHP Sparky, the 5th
11/16/2018 at 15:04

F or sure. There are plenty of men with daughters with no empathy.

BigBlock440 > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever
11/16/2018 at 15:06

Nobody said that, that’s just what he inferred.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > CalzoneGolem
11/16/2018 at 15:09

Yes, there’s certainly that too. Every guy on earth had a mother, most of them one they probably care about a lot. And a lot have sisters. And wives, and female friends. Yet so many of them can be utter shits to OTHER women, or turn a blind eye when other men are.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever
11/16/2018 at 15:11

I don’t even want to reply to the other response - but plenty of people are saying this. Look at the national conversation around this. Or at the very least are absolutely implying it. The fucking president said it in very similar words about how unfair it is to be a man and having to constantly worry about being falsely accused. The fact that he chose not to give light to the far more prevalent and concerning issue that women face with being actually sexually abused - well the silence says it all.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > Tripper
11/16/2018 at 15:12

Ha seriously! The summer was a blur, but it’s all good fun!

smobgirl > ZHP Sparky, the 5th
11/16/2018 at 15:12

I stopped to get gas a few days ago on my way home from work - after dark, but hardly late. I stopped on the shoulder for a guy to walk across the entrance before pulling up to the pumps. Stop the car, unbuckle, get my card out, and as I reach for the door handle the guy appears in my window, 6 inches from my face. He had snuck around the back of the car. I don’t know what he wanted but y ou better believe I hauled ass out of that parking lot.

The guy, the gas station, everything could’ve been totally safe but it’s not worth the risk.

Future next gen S2000 owner > ZHP Sparky, the 5th
11/16/2018 at 15:24

It supposedly gets easier or so I’ve been told. My twins are just over a year. We can share a kart! Get them racing early!

Mid Engine > ZHP Sparky, the 5th
11/16/2018 at 15:50

I have two daughters, 23 and 25. They’ve both trained in self defense and can more than hold their own (absent a gun or knife being pulled on them). Incidentally, my sons have similar training as well. We do not advocate violence and do not own any weapons, but we can defend ourselves from physical attacks. So... it’s on you to prepare your kids.

As for the President Dumpster Fire, fuck him with a lit cactus.

shop-teacher > ZHP Sparky, the 5th
11/16/2018 at 15:52

I have hope. Maybe I’m an optimistic sap, but I have hope.

I have to be very vague here when I tell you this story. One of my male students said some really awful things to one of my female students. I missed it, but no less than three other boys came to her defense to shut that down. I spent the whole period trying to police the fighting and bickering among the boys that was the result of that, but I didn’t know the cause. After the class, three more boys came to me individually to tell me what had caused it all.

So there we have it. One boy said some horrible hurtful things to one girl, and six other boys came to her defense, in two different ways. These are 8th graders. I have hope.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > shop-teacher
11/16/2018 at 16:03

Just having the kids aware makes all the difference. This is good lesson on how to be a good person.

Monkey B > ZHP Sparky, the 5th
11/16/2018 at 16:25

mine is almost 24, 1st born. I worry about her more now than when she was little...you probably will too.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > ZHP Sparky, the 5th
11/16/2018 at 17:29

“Every day I hope that the world will be a more equal and less dangerous place for women by the time my kid is venturing in to it on her own.”

Well in the US and Canada, the world IS, in fact, a less dangerous place compared to when we were young.

It’s also a healthier place ever since leaded gasoline stopped being sold for cars and smoking in the work place was banned in most places.

And in that article, I posted a link with data that showed that when it comes to violent crime, there are actually more men who are victims than women on average.

Also note that I’m also a father of a teen girl and a teen boy. In my experience, each of them needed/needs help in different ways.

With my son, trying to motivate him to do stuff he’s not interested in is like trying to motivate a tree. In his earlier years in one previous school , there were issues with school policies that were disproportionately putative to boys in terms of how they were applied.

With my daughter, she has had issues with other girls picking on her and arguably being emotionally abusive to her.

The most you can do is love them and give them help where they need it.

“As men we are pretty shitty at telling other men to cut it out when they’re being assholes.”

Most men aren’t very good at speaking out about the shit that gets dumped onto us. But in my direct first hand experience and observations, women have their own brand of being assholes.

Neither gender has clean hands.

In my view, it’s not nearly as big of a gender issue as people make it out to be. Though I have observed that women are more likely to complain about stuff that bugs them compared to men. But at the same time, I have observed that women are a bit less likely to say what they mean and mean what they say.

And in my years of experience, many of the problems many people have are self-inflicted.

“And of course we now have a president in the oval office championing this whole mens right movement and how tough it is being a guy. FFS.”

And what I find really mind-boggling is the number of women who say they like/support him... FFS.

nermal > ZHP Sparky, the 5th
11/16/2018 at 17:36

I read the article & the linked study and it lead to more skepticism than anything. There appears to be extreme bias from both those conducting the study and the panel of “experts” that discussed the results.

To summarize, some women feel unsafe on the subway & change their behaviors as a result, thus paying more in transport costs by taking Ubers or taxis. I can actually believe that bit.

The “Recommendations” on how to fix that come across as utterly useless, however. I don’t think any of them will help women to feel safer on public transport, and the last one isn’t even a complete thought or sentence or even relevant to anything in the study .

As for your daughter, teach the concept of hoping for the best but preparing for the worst.

f86sabre > ZHP Sparky, the 5th
11/16/2018 at 17:51

Here, let me add to your despair.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/491cd13b-fcfd-4e9b-b64d-a72cf8ad8c8b

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > f86sabre
11/16/2018 at 18:21

Ha yeah I remember seeing that. Entertaining and depressing at the same time.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > shop-teacher
11/16/2018 at 18:23

That’s a great anecdote and definitely gives hope. I’m confident that the next generation will be better, as I’m sure the current one are in general is compared to those before it. Just can’t let the progress slow or look backwards with stupid questions like if this is really the right thing.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > Mid Engine
11/16/2018 at 18:28

That’s actually great advice. I’ve heard/seen how proper training can absolutely help in sketchy situations defending against brawn, and also to just have the situational awareness to realize a sketchy situation when you see one. Did your kids specifically go through some kind of self-defense program, or just general martial arts type stuff as a hobby?

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > Future next gen S2000 owner
11/16/2018 at 18:30

Ha yeah, just her being able to sit up on her own is amazing. But now she’s almost able to crawl…that’ll be a game changer. Being first time parents and all I’ll just call it success if we manage to not bubble wrap the entire house.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > nermal
11/16/2018 at 18:31

Yeah it all comes down to making sure they have a good head on their shoulders. Same goes for the boys, as far as not being jackasses.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly
11/16/2018 at 18:40

That’s a good post. Agreed for the most part. All comes down to us all being multi-faceted creatures. As I alluded to elsewhere, even assholes who treat girls like shit may very well likely have mothers and sisters they genuinely love with all their heart.

And when it comes to “violence” I’m not sure the specifics of the data you’re looking at, but I’d expect a good deal of that purely to be driven by gun culture in our society – kind of parallel to the mass shooting epidemic where an overwhelming majority of those perpetrators are men. As a result I think it’s important to slice these issues in to separate categories. Sexual abuse by definition, although is a form of violence, is completely different from shootings and drug related violence – the drivers are completely different.

Whether you’re a man or a woman going through abuse of any sort is horrible, as is being accused of something you simply aren’t guilty of. My problem is with the current trend of equating these all to be equal. Yes, it’s absolute shit to go through the smearing of a false accusation – but from a statistical perspective it simply isn’t equivalent to the number of actual acts of sexual abuse that people endure.

As individuals I completely understand how people could want to see equal levels of justice, and they deserve that. As a society, and as public policy, equating the two boils down to nothing but “whataboutism” as an attempt to not do anything about either problem at all. At least from folks like our Dear Leader.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > Monkey B
11/16/2018 at 18:42

Yeah, my FIL is a great guy and I see how much he worries about his daughters even today. At least for him as he tells me, the teenage years were the most stressful in his life.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > smobgirl
11/16/2018 at 18:45

It’s great to see some female perspectives around here. If anything it’s a reminder that you’re amongst us and not just some hypothetical beings that we SHOULD treat a certain way. You’re actual people we must treat with dignity and respect because you actually do go through this shit that many of us just read about on the internet or might assume are super rare occurrences.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > ZHP Sparky, the 5th
11/16/2018 at 20:02

“As I alluded to elsewhere, even assholes who treat girls like shit may very well likely have mothers and sisters they genuinely love with all their heart.”

On the subject of being an ‘asshole’... sometimes someone can label you as an asshole just because you didn’t give them what they want.

In the past, I’m sure I was the “asshole” because I didn’t cave into being pressured into agreeing to marriage and the attempts at emotional blackmail (me being told “do this or I’m breaking up with you”) .

Or I was the “asshole” because I called out someone on their lies and/or bullshit (“You like how I’m a hands-on father, but you want me to make you the #1 person in my life... ahead of my own kids??? ”) .

But who is the real asshole in these situations?

And note I’m using real-world examples from actual conversations I’ve had.

From my perspective, I’m merely standing up for myself and choosing not to be emotionally blackmailed into making a poor life choice.

“And when it comes to “violence” I’m not sure the specifics of the data you’re looking at,”

It’s a combo of US data on violent crime that shows men are victims a little more often overall for all forms of violent crime. But there is also some first hand life experience that tells me the violence that men receive at the hands of women is vastly more under-reported... such as when I was strongly discouraged from pressing charges against a woman who assaulted me (an assault which the officer and a bunch of witnesses saw) .

Or a friend of mine whose wife assaulted him IN FRONT OF AN OFFICER after he found out she cheated on him... and the officer did diddly squat about it.

Or another guy I knew who left his wife who was abusive to him for years, but what caused him to leave and go to his mother’s house was one evening when his wife threatened to break his daughters arms if the daughter didn’t finish her supper.

Those are some first hand experiences/observations I have had. Here’s an article that has some government data that jibes with what I have experienced and observed:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/relationships/male-victims-of-domestic-abuse-struggle-againststigma/article32874829/

When I hear/read about women complain about not having their assaults being taken seriously... pffft... they should try being a guy reporting an assault. I’ve been there.

“Yes, it’s absolute shit to go through the smearing of a false accusation – but from a statistical perspective it simply isn’t equivalent to the number of actual acts of sexual abuse that people endure.”

The two are loosely-related issues. Baseless accusations are one thing. Assaults are another thing. But I will say that not going after people for baseless accusations and outright lies because it might have a “chilling effect” is absolutely bullshit and based on the myth that all accusers tell the truth.

The way it is right now, sexual assault does get treated with some seriousness a good part of the time. Not 100% of the time, but definitely good part of the time.

On the other hand, in cases of baseless accusations (that in some cases has led to suicide - which someone mentioned happened to a friend of theirs in the comments of the article you’re referencing), or in cases where it’s a woman assaulting a man, there are little or no consequences.

For me, i t’s not about using ‘whataboutism’ to do nothing. It’s about someone making false statements to police (which in itself is a crime) and ruining (or attempting to ruin) someone’s life as a result... and ALSO taking that seriously as a crime.

It’s also about taking ALL assault reports, regardless of whether it’s reported by a man or woman, seriously.

Between my two kids, I’m actually more worried for my son.

The education system these days is all about promoting women to the point that it’s failing boys. I’ve seen my own son experience the negative effects of this at one of his past schools.

I fear more for my son (who is a quieter, more introverted type) that his life may get seriously derailed over a baseless accusation or through divorce (if he ever chooses to get married... to which I plan on showing him the legal side to what he’s actually signing up for).

There are far more supports in society these days for women than there are for men.

Monkey B > ZHP Sparky, the 5th
11/16/2018 at 20:26

mine was an easy teen, oddly enough.

smobgirl > ZHP Sparky, the 5th
11/16/2018 at 21:02

I’m very impressed with the attitude towards women here, for the most part. There’s an occasional comment that I wish I didn’t “overhear” but it’s so much friendlier here than anything else car-related I’ve seen.

I can’ t put enough emphasis on how much it’s helped by the policy of no photos of pinups with cars. I grew up in a car family, and there’s not much as awkward as watching your dad ogle grid girls.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever
11/16/2018 at 22:16

A few nights in a foreign prison might quickly change that opinion...

Mid Engine > ZHP Sparky, the 5th
11/19/2018 at 10:33

My kids took karate for quite a while, then kick boxing ( mostly for the workout) .