Welp, it's now officially official.  Amazon has chased me to the east coast.

"someassemblyrequired" (someassemblyrequired) 11/13/2018 at 10:10 • Filed to: montgomery ward and sears were better at this

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For non-Seattleites, here’s a picture of Amazon’s Seattle HQ:

And in an added bonus, they are calling Crystal City “National Landing,” so yeah, this is going well already.

The Dummy Gummy > someassemblyrequired 11/13/2018 at 10:20

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That ball looks like a nightmare to work in if you’re on the top level.

someassemblyrequired > The Dummy Gummy 11/13/2018 at 10:24

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Oh it is all “contemplation spaces” in the spheres.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > someassemblyrequired 11/13/2018 at 10:26

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Link doesn’t work

someassemblyrequired > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 11/13/2018 at 10:28

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Thanks, fixed now.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > someassemblyrequired 11/13/2018 at 10:39

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7. Are you continuing to hire in the Seattle area?

Yes. We currently have more than 8,000 positions open and over 45,000 Amazonians in the Seattle area.

Amazonians... Barf-tastic.

someassemblyrequired > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 11/13/2018 at 10:47

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People that were there really early on were ok, but it started to attract a bad crowd . I used to hang out with a lot of early Amazonians, and they would try to get me to work there, and my response was “I’ve heard your stories. I am neither foolish enough, nor desparate enough to work at Amazon. ”   Was probably a bad call, as I’m pretty sure they all haul down like 7 figures now.

Textured Soy Protein > someassemblyrequired 11/13/2018 at 10:52

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Now I officially get to start hearing from my parents repeatedly about how I should go work at Amazon in Arlington, because I had a short stint as a contractor for an Amazon subsidiary back in 2013-14 .

someassemblyrequired > Textured Soy Protein 11/13/2018 at 10:55

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T hat commute is gonna be even worse now, thank goodness we are like 2 minutes from VRE. I guess I shouldn’t complain with a biggish house in an awesome school district with a direct connection to Crystal City, but yeah, even though my house probably doubled in value, Amazon brings problems.

Ash78, voting early and often > someassemblyrequired 11/13/2018 at 11:17

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Wonderful, low cost-of-living areas! Totally outside the box and unpredictable. This will be great, I can’t wait to see Amazon Prime drop back down to $79/year with all the money they save splitting up HQs into three places and how little they’ll have to pay in salaries.

/s

someassemblyrequired > Ash78, voting early and often 11/13/2018 at 11:22

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I keep getting the feeling this is like watching Sears in the 60s and 70s sow the seeds of its eventual d estruction.

Ash78, voting early and often > someassemblyrequired 11/13/2018 at 11:29

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I work at a very large company with basically three “competing” HQs (sometimes 4-6 , depending on how you count...every time zone in the US ) and it has some advantages...but there’s a lot of tribalism that comes from it, too.

Thankfully I work remotely and I’m not really culturally tied to any one of them, but I have no idea how they do it. On the plus side, it’s easier to recruit people without relocating them.

KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time > someassemblyrequired 11/13/2018 at 11:29

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Finally, it’s done. But Let’s not forget how cheesy and cringey some of these city officials’ pitches to Amazon were

https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/19/16504042/amazon-hq2-second-headquarters-most-funny-crazy-pitches-proposals-stonecrest-new-york

someassemblyrequired > Ash78, voting early and often 11/13/2018 at 11:31

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Yep, fiefdoms become a problem with that many HQ’s and you still need to do relocations (because they don’t like remote working).   I don’t really see many advantages, other than Seattle is close to maxed out.

Ash78, voting early and often > someassemblyrequired 11/13/2018 at 11:51

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Ironically, I’d say NYC got maxed out (housing prices, prime real estate, etc) a long time ago, and NOVA during the last housing bubble. Not exactly up-and-coming places needing new investment.

I truly would have expected to see them choose places like Minneapolis (more reasonably priced; and extremely retail-oriented with Target, Best Buy, etc) or maybe Raleigh or Austin (both very tech-heavy, but also medium priced).

They’ll find the talent they want, they just have to pay too much for it.

Textured Soy Protein > someassemblyrequired 11/13/2018 at 11:55

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Before I moved back out here I was considering working in Crystal City, but the company I was talking to didn’t come thru with what they actually wanted to do until I was too far along with other offers. Now that I’m settled in Rockville and working from home, I’d need a good reason to make that commute.

Sovande > someassemblyrequired 11/13/2018 at 11:59

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I live about 1.5 miles from Crystal City. I am mentally preparing for everything to suck really hard.  25,000 people earning an average of $150,000 is going to further fuck the housing market here.  Not to mention tax the infrastructure more.  I am not amused.

Sovande > Ash78, voting early and often 11/13/2018 at 12:02

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Crystal City is empty after the Fed left a few years ago. It has a metro stop, and the airport is about 500 feet away. It’s also one exit away from DC which has a lot to offer.  I think it’s a wise choice, I just wish I didn’t live here to revel in it.

RPM esq. > The Dummy Gummy 11/13/2018 at 12:13

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The spheres aren’t offices, they’re just a common area between the 25 buildings full of offices around them, essentially an indoor garden to take a break in  and a couple places to eat.

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > Ash78, voting early and often 11/13/2018 at 12:15

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Silly man, you think they pay livable salaries where they are now?

You can make that much in Cleveland.

Ash78, voting early and often > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 11/13/2018 at 12:35

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Part of me wants to say “I’m sure they have great benefits, though!” but I know that’s probably not the case.

I guess looking at the averages you’d have to account for how many respondents were less experienced and dragging that average down. Looks like a pretty wide range.

What site is that from?

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > Ash78, voting early and often 11/13/2018 at 12:51

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They don’t. I’ve talked with them. They have more than 30 people who manage and maintain their time keeping system with a focus on ensuring warehouse employees are timed down to sub-minute windows. Their benefits are a total joke.

The entire range is below what you’d make in Cleveland anywhere but Hyland. (Talk about criminally underpaying the talent.) But t hat’s Glassdoor, specifically for their Seattle office.

Also remember that Amazon makes use of “stack ranking” and refuses to accept it as anything other than the best thing ever. On top of encouraging managers to be abusive and demanding 70+ hour work weeks from salary. If you’re “bottom ranked” you’re just fired.

someassemblyrequired > Textured Soy Protein 11/13/2018 at 13:06

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Man, if I were an evil billionaire, I would have totally grabbed the old Comsat HQ along 270 - I mean just look at it:

https://archpaper.com/2016/02/where-my-comsat/

someassemblyrequired > Sovande 11/13/2018 at 13:07

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Yeah you should be ok for a few years, but if you’re renting I’d start making plans.  It may be time to head for Fairfax Co.

Ash78, voting early and often > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 11/13/2018 at 13:10

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I knew about the stack ranking shenanigans in the warehouses, but wasn’t sure if it was truly company-wide (ie, HQ and back-office people). It’s really a ridiculous system, like the Pyramid Schemes of employment practices. Eventually you burn enough people out (or piss enough off) that your reputation as an employer takes a nosedive. It doesn’t matter if that bottom 5% are still in the top quartile in the business, they get axed. Such an old-fashioned practice...

someassemblyrequired > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 11/13/2018 at 13:12

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Yeah, they had to import most of their talent from other places in the U.S. or overseas because the locals knew their deal - they knew you could get better working conditions with a comparable salary lots of places in the Seattle area, especially if you had tech skills .

Sovande > someassemblyrequired 11/13/2018 at 13:16

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I am not living outside the beltway like some kind of animal. I was born and raised in Alexandria and I am staying, warts and all. I own my condo, so I’m not overly concerned - except for the increase in traffic. I am close to work and can bike if everything goes to shit. I won’t ride the peasant trolley because it costs the same as it does for me to park my car in my building and the service sucks.

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > someassemblyrequired 11/13/2018 at 13:18

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Yeah, their current incompetent scam is to target 20-somethings in the cheapest parts of the midwest and act like bottom six-digits is good money for Seattle. (I say incompetent because if they actually read my resume, they’d notice I have been in the industry since before many of their employees were born . )

Of course, the hilarious thing is that because the dot-bomb bubble is a cult? They’re all still trying to emulate the worst practices of Amazon and FB and Google because “LOOK!! IT WORKS!!” Yes, abusing the shit out of your employees is totally going to work when you have 100 of them and zero profits.

But frankly, you could get better working conditions than Amazon ... basically anywhere. I mean fuck. Being a technician at a car dealership is better working conditions than being an AWS engineer.

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > Ash78, voting early and often 11/13/2018 at 13:22

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Warehouse is the one place free of stack-ranking because it’s all contractors and disposables. They have a huge warehouse local to me now. Basically, you get to work there 6-9 months tops. At which point they modify your demand so you can’t fill it, and fire you. Or they just fire you.

But because they’re Amazon and Bezos and the fucking country has become a bunch of literal cults? Their rep will never take a nosedive. All the exposes and journalism and hidden cameras in the world will not change a thing. You want proof, SpaceX and Tesla are every bit as bad as Amazon with regards to how they treat and pay their employees. And they still have idiots breaking down their doors for every position.

Textured Soy Protein > someassemblyrequired 11/13/2018 at 13:33

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At least with regard to Bezoslandia, Clarksburg is probably much more exurban than they’d like. 

someassemblyrequired > Sovande 11/13/2018 at 13:36

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Yeah, the real problem is for people that rent, you should be good, especially if you can get to work without a car. Metro is hot garbage, and VRE is only marginally better. Now that I think about it, Fairfax might get hit harder just because the schools are ranked better.

someassemblyrequired > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 11/13/2018 at 13:40

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Yeah, I hear it has gotten better, but yeah, you could do almost anything and be happier and better off.  

someassemblyrequired > Textured Soy Protein 11/13/2018 at 13:43

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Kinda goes to show their target hire though, young, no kids, looking for something urban.  

Sovande > someassemblyrequired 11/13/2018 at 13:44

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Arlington has the best schools in the region. The problem will be housing, I think.

The worst traffic I c ur rently face on my commute is the 1.5 miles through Crystal City. I can’t imagine that will be improving.

someassemblyrequired > Sovande 11/13/2018 at 13:47

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Well, not according to the sources the Amazon folks will look at, though you’re correct about Arlington schools being excellent . Rental housing will be an issue, and National Airport is a write-off now.

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > someassemblyrequired 11/13/2018 at 13:55

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Yeah, that’s definitely not true at all. Amazon has gotten worse, not better, because they can. They got off scot-free with the salary fixing lawsuits. And they basically have infinite marketing cash. Any time there’s negative press, just hire a bunch of marketing drones, then throw them away when the storm has passed.

And of course, as a result, pay has decreased and benefits have gotten worse. Their technical orgs are a total joke, as well. Constant random reorgs based on politics and fiefdoms. Half the underlying systems? Written by people long gone, no documentation, nobody willing to take ownership, nobody with a clue how it works, but gods help you if it goes down, because half the business depends on it.

That’s before the encouraged bullying, plagarism, and harassment they call “being Amazonian.”

Sovande > someassemblyrequired 11/13/2018 at 14:01

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https://www.niche.com/k12/search/best-school-districts/s/virginia/

https://patch.com/virginia/arlington-va/100-best-public-elementary-schools-virginia-2019-list

https://www.niche.com/k12/search/best-public-elementary-schools/s/virginia/

Those are pretty comprehensive lists that rank Arlington as the top in the state, not just the region.

Of course Fairfax is many times bigger than Arlington.

National is not a bad airport now, I don’t think. Though my judgement may be clouded by the fact that it’s 7 minutes from my home.

William Byrd > Sovande 11/13/2018 at 15:16

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You own something in the area, you’re good.  We bought in Arlington in May, so I’m excited.  I hope to see some extra digits beside my Zestimate soon! 

someassemblyrequired > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 11/13/2018 at 15:42

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Yep, don’t have to convince me, I’ve told them no for going on 2 decades.  There’s a lot of hot mess there, and I don’t think it would take much to eat their lunch on a bunch of fronts.

Sovande > William Byrd 11/13/2018 at 15:47

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At some point the increasing value of my home will be outweighed by the declining standard of living. Traffic is already bad enough that getting from one side of town to the other between 4 and 7 is nearly impossible. With the influx of a shitload of people all at one time (more or less) things will be bad before they are good. Compound that with the closing of every Northern Virginia metro station between Memorial Day and Labor Day 2019 ( Braddock Road, King Street, Eisenhower Avenue, Huntington, Van Dorn Street and Franconia-Springfield) and the work being done on the Memorial Bridge, which funnels everything to the 14th Street Bridge , things are going to be fucked up . I work 6.5 miles from my office. Today, with a little bit of rain, that trip took me 36 minutes.  It’s usually 17.  

someassemblyrequired > Sovande 11/13/2018 at 15:48

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A couple of years ago when we were looking the rankings were a bit different, our RE agent said, yeah, they’re full of it for Arlington and Alexandria, and both are good. The numbers didn’t really add up though, and street parking/townhouse living wasn’t really what we wanted. So off to suburbia where our $$ went further and the commute was similar for my wife .

I don’t really understand the DC market though - the salaries aren’t that high, and the cost of living is insane.

Sovande > someassemblyrequired 11/13/2018 at 16:05

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10 of the top 25 counties with the highest median income in the nation are in the DC metro area according to Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-income_counties_in_the_United_States

USA Today ranked it a bit differently, but the area is listed in 3rd for highest median income :

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/economy/2018/05/17/25-richest-cities-in-america/34991163/

Or per capita according to Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_metropolitan_areas_by_per_capita_income

Slightly older, but still relevant:

https://www.businessinsider.com/highest-earning-us-cities-2016-6#-9

There is more money made in this area than almost anywhere else in the country. 

MattHurting > Sovande 11/13/2018 at 16:06

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And that’s why I left NoVA behind 5 years ago. Usually 17 minutes to go 6.5 miles is insane.

Sovande > MattHurting 11/13/2018 at 16:14

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Only three miles of that commute is on roads with a speed limit above 35. Most is 25 mph city streets.

I have a lot invested in the area. My parents, my son, my job, my home, my boat, etc. Plus I genuinely like it. I went hiking at Great Falls over the weekend. The weekend before I fished on the river, the weekend before my son and I took a long bike ride along the river. There is a lot to do and a lot of money to be made. I’m not sure where else I could live that would allow me all the advantages and the ability to save for my son’s education. I’m a single dad and shit ain’t cheap.

But the traffic will fuck your head up sometimes. 

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > someassemblyrequired 11/13/2018 at 17:21

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Nobody’s going to eat their lunch. Not today, not tomorrow, not ten years from now. They’re essentially a monopoly and even where they aren’t, they’re an unstoppable juggernaut. One that actively colludes with the others of their ilk.

If you want any further proof, just look how hard they drive down salaries, and still get tons of applications. The place is a total toxic shitshow top to bottom, and plenty of people are still stupid enough to embarrass themselves trying to go to work there. Or stupid enough to claim we got “good paying warehouse jobs.” (Bitch, Corsa Performance pays their warehouse people more than Amazon does. And they get benefits !)

William Byrd > Sovande 11/14/2018 at 08:08

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Fair enough, that all makes sense.

For the first time in my career I work in the city that I live in. So I’m only driving 9'ish minutes to work after over a decade of doing 1-1.5 hours each way.

BUT , push comes to shove, I’m moving somewhere warm anyway once my kids are older. :) I wouldn’t look back at winter and miss a damn thing.

someassemblyrequired > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 11/14/2018 at 08:49

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Eventually people will wise up or they’ll get AT&Ted. Now that their stock has hit the skids, that will discourage some folks at the top, and Corsa Performance and its ilk will steal folks at the bottom end.

Amazon and Netflix are the companies I’ve heard the biggest horror stories about, and that’s just not sustainable unless everyone is getting a ton of stock options, especially with a tightening labor market.

Plus people will shop elsewhere - I tend to only buy there when other options have been exhausted, as generally their prices aren’t the lowest anymore, and I don’t like supporting monopolies.

someassemblyrequired > Sovande 11/14/2018 at 09:07

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Well I guess so, though it is surprising - the salary reports are pretty low vs. Seattle here, plus minimum wage is substantially less. I guess everybody is a GS15/ lawyer/lobbyist, which is probably why I find the DC area so mentally exhausting .

Sovande > someassemblyrequired 11/14/2018 at 09:26

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I guess I don’t understand. How would the “salary reports” be lower in this area if the median  income is higher?

I don’t find the area to be exhausting because of the work of others. I just ignore that bullshit. Those guys can be happy doing what they do and I will be happy doing what I am doing.

I do find that there is a certain level of government employee that I find to be insufferable. It is generally people aged say 38 -45 who have done well for themselves. They have topped out salary-wise in the government sector and tend to think that means they have arrived. In my chosen field those salaries would be somewhere in the middle management realm. It’s an interesting dichotomy.

someassemblyrequired > Sovande 11/14/2018 at 09:36

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HR drones lowballing Glassdoor?

Yeah when people start talking about work here, I change the subject or start looking at my phone. They seem to get the memo.

I worked in government for a while, and I know those insufferable folks - it was weird working in government after private industry. The folks that had been in the private sector were always chomping at the bit, and those that were in that category you identified were worse than useless. As in they were actively working against the goals of the organization and being shitty to their co-workers.

Sovande > someassemblyrequired 11/14/2018 at 09:49

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There is a certain amount of jealousy that I carry around with me towards those government employees. They chose a fairly easy road and it is fairly easy to do fairly well as a federal employee. Plus the benefits are generally better than most of those provided in the private sector.

GLiddy > someassemblyrequired 11/19/2018 at 14:14

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Well, there’s some good new. Bezos himself said that one day Amazon will fail .