Minimum Wage and 3.7% Unemployment

"davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com" (davesaddiction)
11/06/2018 at 09:08 • Filed to: None

We’re approaching the longest interval between federal minimum wage increases. With Amazon’s recent decision to pay all U.S. employees at least $15 per hour, it will be interesting to see what other big employers do in response. Clearly, if Walmart and others (national fast food, retail & grocery chains) follow suit, almost everyone would have to pay more to compete for workers (which are already very hard to come by). Hard to imagine a wage increase will come under Trump , so if the economy stays strong and he manages to win again (please no) in 2020, that would make it 15+ years before the minimum wage law is revised.

In 1993, my first “real” job at the grocery store down the street got me $5.15 an hour (what Wyoming/Georgia would prefer to still pay people today! ) . That was a little more than the minimum at the time - i nflation adjusted, that’s $9/hr.

Thoughts on this? What should the national minimum wage be? Clearly, some places are much cheaper to live than others, which is why many states have their own laws. If the market makes the correction itself (paying more - supply/demand ), is it really necessary? The need for it is c learly not as great in good times than in lean times, when lots of people are out of work and desperate for anything.

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DISCUSSION (100)

Ash78, voting early and often > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 09:46

Even at the state level, it’s misleading to have one standard. The cost of living just 30 minutes from me is about half where I am now.

When I was earning $4.25/hours in 1995, my new car was still $15k and I made the payments (living at home, thankfully). Gas was still $1-$1.50/gallon. A desktop PC was about $2,500. A lot of inflation stats — as they relate to wages — are a little misleading because the “basket of goods” approach isn’t one-size-fits-all . Until a couple years ago, housing prices had been flat for about a decade, as well.

Bottom line: Inflation is tricky and minimum wage needs to be fluid and based on local demand. There is enough information and a robust enough job market for people to have the power to walk. It wasn’t always that way — you wouldn’t even know what other opportunities you were missing out on (before monster, indeed, etc). There are better wages to be had right now across the board and it looks like the gap between stagnant wages and record profits is starting to close up just a little bit. That’s a good trend.

All that aside, u nder employment is definitely a big problem right now and I cringe every time I see our low UE rate. It’s just so misleading.

functionoverfashion > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 09:46

My first above-board job I got $4.25/hr raking leaves.

That’s all I have. You have interesting points and raise interesting question, I just don’t have time to respond right now.

Tekamul > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 09:56

My state is having a multi-year battle over legislating a schedule to $15/hr. The legislature has passed it, the gover nor has vetoed it. Depending on how the vote goes today, I expect them to do the exact same dance in February.

It’s tough, because in VT, it’s a tail of two states. Inside Chittenden county (about 25% of the pop.) , $15/hr should be easy to support for any business. Outside that 1 county, $15 is quite a stretch, outside of ski areas. It should be manageable, but people are much more fearful of it.

BigBlock440 > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 10:00

In 1993, my first “real” job at the grocery stor e down the street got me $5.15 an hour (what Wyoming/Georgia would prefer to still pay people today!).

No, the minimum is not the preferred. Do you think the minimum speed limits on highways are what states prefer people to drive at? Do you think the feds(or at least Obama/dems) prefer people only have the minimum required health insurance? Almost nobody is paid the minimum wage, more than twice as many people are unemployed than are making minimum or below (and the or below is probably entirely waitstaff, which won’t change no matter what number the government sets) T he only thing increasing it does it make the few at the very low end (mostly young, inexperienced, part-timers, etc.) less attractive to employers so their positions are more likely to remain unfilled (or filled by illegals that can be exploited) . Wages are going up on their own across the board, and will continue to do so as long as unemployment remains low.

https://www.americanexperiment.org/2018/03/earns-minimum-wage/

That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 10:06

I would argue that what Amazon did is what’s supposed to happen...they’re hiring at 15, so now Walmart and their competitors need to respond. The market isn’t going to allow people to pay 10 when Amazon is at 15, so while you may not see an increase in the federal minimum wage, you’ll see an uptick in salaries for ‘minimum wage’ jobs except it’ll be market driven, not federally mandated, which is better.

My grandfather is 83, he’s been retired 20 years and collects a pension from his old job because back then, there were more jobs than workers and you had to offer a pension to be an attractive destination for workers. This is similar to me...pensions may be dead and buried, but if companies are fighting over workers they’ll have no choice but to raise wages.

Future next gen S2000 owner > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 10:10

Minimum wage is tricky. As others pointed out, cost of living varies greatly within a state. I’ve never understood why it isn’t linked to inflation. I don’t see congress being able to pass a higher minimum wage.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Future next gen S2000 owner
11/06/2018 at 10:11

Yeah, it really needs to be tied to inflation.

Future next gen S2000 owner > Ash78, voting early and often
11/06/2018 at 10:12

U nderemployment is a big issue. Why wages aren’t rising when employment is historically high is beyond me.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms
11/06/2018 at 10:13

I agree that market driven is better, but I still think there needs to be a reasonable federal minimum.

facw > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 10:16

I support raising the minimum wage, given the circumstances, but ultimately I think it’s pretty distorting, and I would prefer to abolish it and have some sort of universal basic income instead.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > BigBlock440
11/06/2018 at 10:16

Yeah, maybe prefer is the wrong word, but seems ridiculous that those two states still have laws on the books that have a minimum wage lower than the federal rate.

Censored > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 10:17

I, personally, don’t see the need to have a mandated minimum wage. Let the market dictate the wages. If no one accepts a job, then the wage provider is going to have to naturally increase wages to attract employees. If you feel like you aren’t earning enough, quit and move on.

I work in automation, and frankly I take peoples jobs with the systems that my company provides. What my fear is with raising minimum wage, is that the price to automate the position is going to become justified, thus eliminating the position all together . We are already seeing this with the automated McDonald’s and all the order entry kiosk’s at the fast and quick serve restaurants .

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Tekamul
11/06/2018 at 10:17

Guess there’s no reason that cities/counties can’t have their own minimum wage laws.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > functionoverfashion
11/06/2018 at 10:20

My first job (beside helping the janitor at my dad’s work) was hanging doorknob adverts for Domino’s. They gave me $20 and all the pizza I could eat for a morning of work - pretty sweet gig for a 12 year old!

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Ash78, voting early and often
11/06/2018 at 10:28

Very good points. Clearly the minimum is for the most rural/cheapest places to live. I wonder how many cities/counties have their own minimum wage.

You had a $15k car while making $4.25/hour?! I’m pretty sure my first car was $2500.

Yes, thankfully wages are moving up a little:

Wages rose 2.9 percent from September 2017 to September 2018, according to the Labor Department’s Employment Cost Index for civilian workers, a widely watched measure of pay that does not take inflation into account.

That is the biggest increase — not adjusted for inflation — since the year that ended in September 2008.

Prices have risen significantly in the past year, especially for gas and rent. Adjusted for inflation, workers’ wages grew 0.6 percent over the year, making the increase the largest since 2016, according to the Labor Department.

Sluggish pay growth has been one of the biggest problems in this recovery, but employers are finally having to hike wages at a more normal level typically seen during good economic times. Unemployment is at a 49-year low and there are more job openings than unemployed Americans, which forces companies to fight for available workers.

“Wages are grinding higher as the labor market continues to tighten,” said Justin Weidner, an economist at Deutsche Bank. “Wage growth is likely to be over 3 percent again soon.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/us-workers-see-fastest-wage-increase-in-a-decade/2018/10/31/3c2e7894-dc85-11e8-85df-7a6b4d25cfbb_story.html?utm_term=.58808278e075

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > facw
11/06/2018 at 10:30

Universal basic income is an interesting concept, and one that will have to be given more and more consideration as more and more jobs in modern economies are automated out of existence.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 10:34

I think it’s more important to have regional or state level minimum wages because of the varying cost of living.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Censored
11/06/2018 at 10:34

That works fine when times are good and unemployment is low, but there does need to be some minimum for when unemployment is high (companies aren’t charities, and most will do what’s best for the bottom line).

facw mentioned universal basic income - your thoughts on that, as more and more jobs are automated out of existence?

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner
11/06/2018 at 10:39

Yeah, it seems like city/county minimums make the most sense, but there probably does need to be some federal minimum for the most rural/poorest areas. You can rent a place in Toledo for $550 per month (half what a $7.25 wage would get you).

Kinja'd!!!

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 10:57

Yep, it’s just too big of a country with too many drastically different markets to apply a blanket living base wage. Leaving politics out, your numbers above prove it. It just costs more to live in certain areas. Also, I don’t believe the Detroit rate, probably lower. my first mortgage in metro detroit with taxes and insurance was less than that (was from 2010-2014 so not TOO long ago)

DipodomysDeserti > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 11:05

Damn, Tucson has gotten expensive. I rented my first apartment in Tucson in 2005. Cost me $525/month for a studio within walking distance of UofA. All utilities were included and I had access to a pool/gym/computer lab. Of course yearly tuition at UofA was around $3-4k back then.

npc58501 > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 11:07

ND min wage maybe $7.25...but I’ve never seen a job no matter how low on the totem pole pay less than $10 or $11/hr. Some pay $15-20 for retail. The issue...cost of buying a house and ND winters are among the harsher ones competing with Russia and Canada for sheer awfulness.

BigBlock440 > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 11:10

5 other states have no minimum. There’s really no need to have a separate state wage if it’s just going to be equal to the federal anyway.

Ash78, voting early and often > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 11:11

Full disclosure: The car decision was after 3 months of fruitless searching for something decent and used. A lot of runarounds in the days before CL...

Eventually my parents decided they just wanted something “new, safe, and trouble free” to get me through all of HS and college, so from that perspective it was still a good investment in peace of mind. I handed it down to my high-school-aged brother after college. I made the payments while I was working in HS, then they took over the rest when I moved off to college. It was a decent arrangement.

Nonetheless, the thing was a piece of crap by modern standards at that price , but excellent by 90s standards (VW Golf Mk3).

npc58501 > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 11:12

Why? The Scandinavian countries and Austria don’t have one. Never needed it...

Ash78, voting early and often > Future next gen S2000 owner
11/06/2018 at 11:12

It’s finally starting to change...my theory is psychological. We’re all acting like “battered wives” after years of crappy employment situations and we’ll take the first offer we get.

Tekamul > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 11:21

I agree, except that’s exactly the reason many state GOP legislatures are outlawing such things. They don’t want cities forcing livable wages, bec au se that continues to focus power within city limits, which favors democrats.

Laws have already been passed barring local minimum wages in 27 states.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > npc58501
11/06/2018 at 11:24

These are societies with a wide and deep social safety net, and high taxes to match.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Ash78, voting early and often
11/06/2018 at 11:26

That is a pretty good arrangement.

Censored > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 11:28

I agree with this somewhat, but still think that a truely free market can dictate minimum wages. Even in bad times, if no one shows up to work the wage provider isn’t going to make money, that hurts the bottom line more than paying an employee enough to retain them.

On to UBI, I want to start by saying that I’m not smart enough to even comment factually on this, so all I can provide is my opinion.

I think foremost is that it will become very important to have a marketable skill in the very near future. I think that UBI might be a foregone conclusion, but I don’t like it. It strips away the drive to better yourself. I see it as the end of progress and the beginning of lazy. Like it or not, we like to be rewarded for what we do, and if we surpass our neighbors, then we like to be compensated more. UBI removes that.

Ash78, voting early and often > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 11:32

It was enticing to them that I opted to go to a state school where tuition was only $2k/semester in state.

My niece goes to that school now. $10 k/semester, last I checked . That is the single worst part of inflation, IMO, except for maybe healthcare costs.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Censored
11/06/2018 at 11:46

I generally agree with you on UBI, but with the current system we have there are always people who will do nothing and mooch off of others and the state , and there’s also the problem with homelessness. If UBI gives everyone a roof over their head and enough food to eat and just enough money to keep the lights/water/internet on, then they have to work to get anything else they want . The ones who are motivated to better themselves now will be just as motivated with UBI. The people with no motivation to work hard now (or with addictions/mental problems) at least will be off the street and out of the cold. Is that rewarding laziness? Maybe, but some people aren’t going to change, regardless. Most people still desire more than just their basic needs met . The ones currently working hard just to cover their basic needs will now be able to live a much better life, save some and hopefully set the next generation up for more success.

$3.8 trillion a year to do it. Taxes would have to go up significantly.

We first imagine the highly unlikely scenario in which all social spending (excluding infrastructure spending and education, but includes almost all other government transfers to households including healthcare) is scrapped. This would free up about ~ 92% of the funds needed to implement UBI. We subsequently imagine that only income support programs (disability, retirement & social security, welfare, and unemployment benefits) are axed. This would yield ~ 37% of the required funding. Finally, excluding social security, retirement and disability from the list of replaceable programs leaves only 11% of the costs for a UBI of $12,000 covered through replacing existing components of the welfare state.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/12/ray-dalio-addresses-benefits-pitfalls-of-universal-basic-income.html

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Ash78, voting early and often
11/06/2018 at 11:59

Yeah, it’s out of control. Our kids 529s are slowly growing, but if costs keep going up at the same rate...

Censored > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 11:59

So we are robbing Peter to pay Paul. This doesn’t help the problem in my opinion. This is a band aid to the issue and not fixing the roots. To t hose who live off the “system”, where is the motivation to provide in to the society? Once enough people in the group adjust their standard of living to fit into the UBI, the model can’t support it s self. We can already see this trend now in public aid recipients vs. non recipients . Again, I must say, that this is my opinion. I don’t like the prospect of UBI but believe that it is likely something that will come in the nearish future.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > Censored
11/06/2018 at 12:04

Lol, except that companies know that they can pay pennies and workers living paycheck to paycheck can’t do anything to move beyond.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Censored
11/06/2018 at 12:29

So, if UBI is not the solution, what is? When the robots and computers are doing more and more of our work, and there are fewer and fewer jobs, especially at the lower-skilled level, what are all the people who are left behind supposed to do? I understand that some will need to adapt to different jobs, but that’s not a solution for everyone.

It is such a foreign concept to us to not have a job in order to survive in this world, but it seems like that’s where things are moving because of rapid technological advancement . These advancements should enrich our society as a whole and better the lives of all members , not just the ones who came up with the ideas or figured out how to monetize them. If our society has determined ways to require far fewer people to accomplish the tasks necessary for modern everyday life and commerce, shouldn’t more people enjoy the benefits of more leisure time because of this?

I greatly value hard work and trying to better oneself, but an unskilled worker should not have to work even harder and longer for less money because a robot or computer took his or her old job.

Spanfeller is a twat > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner
11/06/2018 at 13:24

However, a Federal minimum can encourage economic growth in rural areas.

Spanfeller is a twat > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 13:27

IMHO t he solution to pretty much all economic troubles is an empowered middle class in a highly regulated free market economy.

Also I think the minimum wage should be adjusted based on density and GDP of the area. The Federal minimum wage should be made an average of the data of all counties . If the county is under the National average, it should use a Federal Minimum.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Spanfeller is a twat
11/06/2018 at 13:36

So, h ow to empower the middle class?

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/11/what-does-middle-class-really-mean/574534/

Spanfeller is a twat > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 13:40

H igher taxes on the rich, and better anti-trust laws. Plus, lower interest rates on loans for first time small business owners.

But I can understand why that wouldn’t work in America.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Spanfeller is a twat
11/06/2018 at 13:43

I mean, we’ve had high taxes in the past...

Kinja'd!!!

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 13:46

In 1993, m y first “real” job at the grocery store down the street got me $5.15 an hour

Wow, I wasn’t paid much more when I worked in a grocery store circa 2006.

Interestingly, looking at a state like Wyoming that’s bordered on every side by states that have higher wage, you see that geography is not an excuse, it looks like there’s a fairly direct impact on unemployment if minimum wage is higher.

I bet finding employees is easier the higher the pay rates are. Additionally those people are also likely to be more motivated to work. I know I certainly am in-part motivated by how much I’m paid.

Spanfeller is a twat > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 13:47

After the 1929 recession they jumped exponentially... I think for good reason.

We also need to remember that in the last 10 years home ownership in the US went from around 40-50% to 20%, homes are very important assets, specially for the middle income brackets

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Spanfeller is a twat
11/06/2018 at 13:47

That is true, but at the same time if you set that too high for the area it can also create stagnation because they can’t afford to hire as many . That or they pay them under the table.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > Spanfeller is a twat
11/06/2018 at 13:48

Additionally I believe healthcare should be ultra-accessible. I bet a HUGE GIANT barrier to people starting their own businesses is health insurance. If the republican party were truly as pro-small-business as it likes to make itself sound, they’d be providing healthcare. Instead they prefer to pretend to be pro-small-business while they quietly make the rich richer and keep the masses quiet (enough) by giving them small tax breaks. Which mind you will be completely negated by this fucking trade war.

That’s my cynical and poorly researched opinion on the government. I however fear that I’m mostly right.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner
11/06/2018 at 13:50

I think a conservative raise of the federal minimum could still help provide some upward pressure for the states that need to be higher than the federal minimum. And certainly for those that are too low despite having low cost of living, basically all the states in red in the above graphic.

As for Detroit, if we are talking urban Detroit, that’s about what my friend is paying for a studio ($954).

Spanfeller is a twat > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner
11/06/2018 at 13:52

But it goes both ways, higher income= hig her consumption=bigger economy

Maybe if you subside some income in the initial 5-10 years?

Spanfeller is a twat > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs
11/06/2018 at 13:55

Oh absolutely. All the small business owners I know here in Mexico rely heavily on the national healthcare service and the “income” subsidy, employers pay no healthcare taxes on employees making 200% or less of minimum wage. Those employees don’t pay income taxes either.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Spanfeller is a twat
11/06/2018 at 14:06

Well, that high home ownership (bad loans to people who couldn’t really afford them) was the precursor to the Great Recession, so... let’s be judicious about fixing that.

Where are you getting your numbers?

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/home-ownership-rate

nj959 > Spanfeller is a twat
11/06/2018 at 14:07

IMO, that’s one of the biggest problems though. We’re at the point where people are using their homes as investments just as much as they’re using them as a place to live. That’s madness. In many real estate markets, people under the age of 35 or so simply can’t afford a home without spending the majority of their income on a 30 year mortgage every month. We’re either going to have to build more housing , in which case old people who didn’t actually save money for their retirement will freak out because their home values will decrease, or we’ll have to accept that there will be an entire generation of people unable to afford purchasing a house anywhere near the two coasts.

Spanfeller is a twat > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 14:08

I got it from NPR. I can’t remember which statistic they used specifically though.

And yes, bad loans were issues.... but it should point a finger at predatory lending and miss management.... Dod Frank did a few things to limit it, but I think Trump deregulated again.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs
11/06/2018 at 14:19

Yeah, it’s crazy that it didn’t change for so long.

Wyoming employers can’t actually pay that little. They have to abide by the federal standard - they just have an old law on the books, I guess.

Most minimum wage jobs are at places that are all about keeping their prices and costs low, and often have very thin profit margins. Sometimes it’s not that they don’t want to pay more, it’s that they can’t.

I mean, pretty soon everyone will be working for Amazon or Walmart, so...

Kinja'd!!!

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Spanfeller is a twat
11/06/2018 at 14:26

Maybe that was some kind of first-time homeowner stat. No clue.

Lots of blame to go around, but the fact of the matter is some people really can’t afford to buy a home and shouldn’t be given a loan. Solve the underlying wage problem, not the symptom.

Zero down home loans are indeed still a thing...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/where-we-live/wp/2018/02/12/zero-down-home-loans-are-back-be-very-leery/?utm_term=.0f46d6dbd3ae

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs
11/06/2018 at 14:55

an increase would be fine, i’m just saying it’s not practical to just jump it to 15 everywhere. There are some areas that just doesn’t work.

Your friend probably lives in downtown or midtown. Rates are going up big time in those areas, but Detroit has a very large footprint and that rate isn’t the norm through the whole city.

See map below to see that I mean, I think you understand giving you said “urban detroit” but I don’t you fetch those rents even in the majority of Corktown yet (soon though with Ford’s investment!)

Kinja'd!!!

Jay, the practical enthusiast > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 14:58

I’m late to this discussion but I just want to point out that although Florida’s minimum wage is $8.10 an hour, nothing but fast food pays that low. Any retail job starts at $10 and places like Target and Walmart are offering $12 and hour. I'd be curious to see what percentage of any state's workforce actually earns minimum wage.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Jay, the practical enthusiast
11/06/2018 at 15:11

And that’s the point of a federal (or state) minimum wage. It’s a starting point. The least-skilled workers might get that to do the least desirable jobs , but to get anything more than that from your employees, you’ve got to pay more.

In 2017, 80.4 million workers age 16 and older in the United States were paid at hourly rates, representing 58.3 percent of all wage and salary workers. Among those paid by the hour, 542,000 workers earned exactly the prevailing federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour. About 1.3 million had wages below the federal minimum [waiters, I assume] . Together, these 1.8 million workers with wages at or below the federal minimum made up 2.3 percent of all hourly paid workers.

The percentage of hourly paid workers earning the prevailing federal minimum wage or less declined from 2.7 percent in 2016 to 2.3 percent in 2017.

https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2017/home.htm

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 15:49

Oh wow, you hear reports of all these stores closing, but seeing it totaled up like that is rather shocking.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner
11/06/2018 at 15:52

Yeah, going to 15 everywhere probably wouldn’t be good, but a dollar or maybe even 2 increase for the federal rate would be a good thing in my mind.

Yeah, my friend lives right downtown. Could be that some of the very high rates down there are pulling up the averages too. I certainly believe that the outer areas are a lot cheaper. I’ve had friends in those areas and I can’t imagine they are paying $900/mo+.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs
11/06/2018 at 15:54

Yeah, my first house was in that town in the bottom left corner of the map - Wayne (home of the factory that’s starting to churn out Rangers) and I had a mortgage on a 1300 sq foot 3 bed 2.5 bath house that was only 5 years old for like 650 WITH taxes and insurance. No one is paying 900 outside of downtown, midtown and soon to be Corktown. It doesn’t surprise me at all for 900 in downtown though.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs
11/06/2018 at 16:13

Yup, and that’s just this year (and consider how many jobs this represents).

Spanfeller is a twat > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 16:24

And the underlying wage symptom to me stems from lack of competition and big corporations having so much power that they basically set the industry’s salaries.

Higher taxes and better anti-trust laws encourage smaller companies i think

Censored > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
11/06/2018 at 16:31

I’ll grant you that to some extent in a dry job climate, but now, in the current jobs market, there are options.

Secondly, don’t live paycheck to paycheck. Live inside of your means. I know given the topic here that is a loaded comment, but I firmly believe in personal responsibility.

Censored > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 16:33

I have to say, as I qualified above, I don’t know. I know I don’t like the prospect of UBI, but feel like that is the option that we are going to be given.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > Censored
11/06/2018 at 17:45

Living inside your means is great and all (I do) but when you’re making minimum wage there’s often not even enough to get by on. Additionally, those people can’t afford to take risks seeking another job, and have zero mobility.

It’s really easy for me to say, “ oh I want a new job in another city” and pack up and move, because I have money in the bank. Somebody working 40-80 hrs a week just to pay the bills can’t afford to take time off work to go to an interview.

Jay, the practical enthusiast > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 18:34

This is just what I was looking for.

Censored > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
11/06/2018 at 18:58

Counterpoint of the fact that a minimum wage job isn't and wasn't intended to be a living wage. It was a starting point for an introduction to the work force. This is why I have a fear of complacency with something like UBI. We have already accepted minimum wage as living wage.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > Censored
11/06/2018 at 19:06

Counterpoint, if it’s the only job you can get, then it IS your living wage.

Censored > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
11/06/2018 at 19:46

But that is the point that you must better yourself, back to personal responsibility.

bubblestheturtle > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 19:53

Competition for minimum wage workers is tough right now? Hmmm. For some reason that strikes me as a bad thing. Something about a mass of unskilled , bottom tie r workers and recent jobs numbers being so good.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > Censored
11/06/2018 at 19:56

How do you better yourself if you can’t even pay your bills working full time+ ?

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Ash78, voting early and often
11/06/2018 at 20:00

since the last recession , 1/2 of people that lost jobs in manufacturing have gone onto disability. that group is also an average 58 years old.

https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=175072446

Censored > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
11/06/2018 at 20:06

Well, you first have to want to and be willing to put in the effort. Then apply for grants and scholarships. There are plenty of programs to help for people in situations just like this, but you have to put in the leg work. This is just the “ free” money with student loans being the other.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > Censored
11/06/2018 at 20:13

Again, you’re asking a working person to either quit working or up their total workload to over 80 hours a week between a job and school.

fintail > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 20:22

Imagine if we had the minimum wage, adjusted for any CPI, had by the luckiest generation 50 years ago.

The Randian dipshits would be screaming.

fintail > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs
11/06/2018 at 20:23

The American healthcare system is the greatest mistake in the history of the republic.

fintail > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 20:24

Look at the tax rates when America was ‘great” - funny how the trickle down dipshits can’t see it.

Censored > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
11/06/2018 at 20:25

No one said life was easy. We only have the right to persue happyness. It’s hard enough to support ourselves in life, much less the entire country.

Secondly, I enjoy the civil debate, for that, thank you. It seems more and more two people can't disagree without it devolving into a poo throwing mess.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > Censored
11/06/2018 at 20:30

But why make things harder on those people than necessary? You’ve mentioned UBI several times, and while it’s a pretty bold idea, I think the concept of allowing people to get the training/education/experience they want/need to succeed without fear of starving is a pretty interesting one.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Censored
11/06/2018 at 20:32

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automat

automated kiosks aren’t new, they are just reverting back to before people custom ordered food.

I think delaying raising wages to prevent auto ma tion is just kicking the can down the road.

You should look at your RoI for the automation projects your company makes. After the initial R&D and capital costs human labor is competing against a little electricity and some lubricant. And wages are only part of the issue, there is payroll taxes, unemployment to the state. bathrooms, dining areas, hvac that needs to be done for people. And all that ignores repeatative stress injuries, which cost a fuckton of money, both in insurance and medical care.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Censored
11/06/2018 at 20:37

most proposals for ubi are for $ 800-1000. Enough so you don’t starve on t he street. The notion that a person is going to be going from earning a low wage (18k a year) + their UBI, so now 28k a year lifestyle. And quit and go back to 10k a year is absurd.

Censored > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
11/06/2018 at 21:16

It’s hard for everyone, some people just manage better. In my profession, I spend a great deal of time in factories and distribution centers, most of these are under staffed. Most of the positions are well above minimum wage and for their location pay enough to easily support yourself (15/hr + 40hr wk + bennies), and still under staffed. These are jobs that only require a slight work ethic and a ged. Everyone has to be good to you cause they can’t afford to lose you, yet these positions are unfilled. Why... Can’t pass the drug test. Then if they do, they’ll get popped on the notified spot check. It is so bad that they have eliminated weed from the panel to try and lower the amount of positives they get. The one I’m thinking of in particular, is in an area averaging well below the poverty line. If you are in this situation and can’t pass a drug test for a good paying job, I simply don’t have sympathy for you.

I only mentioned UBI because I was asked about it. I’m very much against it, but believe that is likely the option we are delt.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/06/2018 at 21:24

i think all the argu ing over MW is short term while ignoring a complete shitshow. . We’re rapidly approaching points where jobs will be removed. Yes new jobs will be made, but they will be higher skilled or creative ones. I think the tipping point will be when w hite collar professions start disppearing with a licensing agreement and software update.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > Censored
11/06/2018 at 21:27

I’m aware that that kinda stuff definitely exists. My dad sells manufacturing equipment (mostly big CNC mills) and most machine shops can’t find and keep machine operators to save their lives. Those guys make really good money too, but they still have issues.

I’m not saying there aren’t good paying jobs out there, or that there aren’t lazy people, but I prefer the worldview that we should error on the side of helping instead of assuming the problem is laziness.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Ash78, voting early and often
11/06/2018 at 21:30

Kinja'd!!!

correction: i can’t find that average age, but off the chart heavily skewed to baby boomers. https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/statcomps/di_asr/2016/sect01.html#chart4

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas
11/06/2018 at 21:53

See the discussion elsewhere in this thread about universal basic income.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > bubblestheturtle
11/06/2018 at 21:56

Seems like the recent crackdown on undocumented workers is also probably related.

Censored > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
11/06/2018 at 21:59

I like the world view too, just don’t think that the government is the right answer. With the government I see 2 issues, the massive overhead and absolutely no accountability on either side. I choose to support my neighbor through private organizations and churches. I am fully aware these are not 100% reliable either, but I trust both more than the government. At least with these, most of the time you are given more than just money, you get a group that really wants to see you succeed. You are given a group that wants to help you at any turn, hold you accountable when you need it.

You give me drug test to public aid and I’m much more open to discussion.

Bet you wouldn’t guess that I’m 100% pro legal weed and am totally ok with gay marriage would you?

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > fintail
11/07/2018 at 08:52

Haha that’s great, it appears the top bracket was at 70%.

fintail > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs
11/07/2018 at 10:00

And although they certainly didn’t actually pay that much, it was still a lot more than they pay now.

It’s almost like the so-called right doesn’t understand how economic functions work, or maybe they do, and they are just luring in the rubes via promises of golden trickle down dreams and efficient de-regulation (where most of what it brings is a widening socio-economic chasm and more corruption).

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > fintail
11/07/2018 at 10:37

Yeah, if anything, keep the rates the same but don’t allow people with incomes in the highest brackets to deduct the fuck out them with all kinds of loopholes.

Dru > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/07/2018 at 11:24

Late to the party here but want to chime in: My take on minimum is that it should be a “close the door behind us” approach. What I mean is, once the lowest wage workers have averaged more than minimum, it should go up.

One might think that the free market dictates wage, and sure, it will to an extent. But many companies simply won’t offer more, even if it means sacrificing output, or they will demand more and more from existing employees without any additional compensation. I think a $10.00 minimum makes sense in 2018. I live in a poorer red state, and most establishments are hiring for that or more for the most basic, entry level work. Of course, I also believe in adjustments for region.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Dru
11/07/2018 at 11:31

We generally pay $10 per hour for babysitting (and round up) . I’m guessing that may have to go up to $15 soon.

fintail > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs
11/07/2018 at 20:48

That’s the fun part, they have lower rates now and still a shitload of deductions. I don’t think anywhere in the legit first world coddles the top few more than the US - and look what has happened to socio-economic mobility. Maybe not a coincidence.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/07/2018 at 20:59

yeah I just saw that thread going down the drain with the “let them eat cake” diala gu e.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > fintail
11/08/2018 at 09:23

Oil countries, they coddle the top few. However some of those may not be considered the first world.

But I’m with you, it’s ridiculous how much we cater to them. And it’s so blatant too, it takes like 3 minutes of research to figure it out. But it’s those 3 minutes that many many Americans don’t spend when it comes to voting in local/state/federal elections. It’s painful that the people that benefit the least from Trump as president are the ones that vote for him the most (aside from the ones that are going in eyes-wide-open knowing they’ll benefit massively).

wafflesnfalafel > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas
11/08/2018 at 14:54

I’m not quite convinced tech is such a big driver. I am personally seeing many, many more white collar occupations going offshore than any replaced by tech of any shape or form. And I’m not saying that is a good or bad thing - just a thing. But I wouldn’t want to be an accountant in the US right now.

fintail > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs
11/08/2018 at 17:28

Yeah, oil countries don’t count, in the same vein as Russia, they are effectively gas stations controlled by the mafia (or gallows-worthy royals). I also nix Switzerland and Monaco from my list - the first exists out of banking for evil, the latter out of tax dodging. They may have awesome HDIs, but they aren’t full functioning nations in a few ways.

I think temporarily embarrassed millionaire syndrome is behind a lot of it, that and the continued idiotic belief in trickle down theory. These people honestly think they are going to blindly stumble into prosperity via these type of policies. It’s never happened in history, but this time it will be different!

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > wafflesnfalafel
11/08/2018 at 20:40

I think the two can go hand in hand. I was talking about the remote Semi trucks form teh video with a freind and his first response was “I could see that, and 3 months later the driver is in India”.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > fintail
11/09/2018 at 10:35

Yeah and this belief that the democratic party wants to take your money. I’ve had republicans tell me they are convinced the democratic party wants to dip into our 401k’s. Talk about the ultimate rich-white-person-statement. The people that the party is trying to stand up for don’t even have 401k’s. And I certainly don’t believe they’d ever consider dipping into privately held investment funds.

Finally, my thought is that the democratic party needs to AGGRESSIVELY campaign on the fact that the average American will be better off with them. A lot of people vote with their wallets, I bet, even though they won’t admit it. And Republicans are traditionally the ones that campaign on the fact that they’ll make you rich. While really, trickle-down doesn’t work, as you mentioned. The Democratic party should campaign on what WILL work for an average American.

And finally, agreed, the wealth gap in those countries is built in for other reasons than it is here in the US. I suppose greed is at the center of it all though. And honestly I could argue that the US isn’t a fully functioning nation either. Rampant poverty, illiteracy, maternal death, it goes on and on.

fintail > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs
11/09/2018 at 17:47

It’s funny, the stats are well known that Americans pay far more than others for healthcare, with worse results (I doubt the US leads in any health indicator), yet these drones still get into a furor over any mention of single payer. And the 401K nonsense is just that - we’re going to have the shit taxed out of disbursements (not to mention the onerous and unjust penalties for earl y withdrawl), they won’t touch it more than that.

A huge factor in saving people money would be a combination of truly progressive taxation, and single payer medical. I bet the average family would save many thousands. But both involve hot button issues for the brainwashed and/or poorly educated so-called right, so chances of that coming to fruition are low. Not to mention, the Dems have a great recent history of stealing defeat from the jaws of victory.

I am sure you have seen the claims that some areas of the US have the worst poverty in the first world. As a whole, it is barely functioning, at best, and many stats will show how divided it really is. Some parts of the US have a relatively first world quality of life. Others, not so much. Some of these parallel political affinities, too.