Lotus Vs. Nissan, economies of scale edition

"BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast." (boxerfanatic)
11/05/2018 at 09:46 • Filed to: None

I can’t help but wonder about the state of affordable V6 Sports cars. Not muscle cars with down-sized engines, not FWD coupe versions of sedans, not hypothetical engine swaps for tiny little cars like Toyota 86 or Miata.

I am talking OEM, as-sold sports cars, 2-seats or 2+(2 * .5), for those cars that have token rear seats that nobody actually considers really using, but can be handy to hold coats or bags...

There aren’t many, and if you don’t include Porsche, because Porsche is Porsche, and not intended to be mainstream or affordable, you are pretty much left with Nissan Z.

Lotus Evora is also much more expensive than the Nissan Z, because Lotus is such an absolutely tiny company, with such a small economy of scale... each car has to bear a lot more of Lotus’ operating costs as a company, and Evora is pretty much the only car Lotus can legally sell in the US. That is a lot of corporate burden to bear for one niche model.

But technically, as a car, is it really that much more inherently sophisticated than a Z in any aspect other than where the engine is mounted? Does it have some huge technical hurdle?

Mainstream V6 engine, check.

Ability to be transversely mounted, check... lots of Nissans and Infinitis, actually might even save some money by sharing...

Manual gearbox, do-able... along with modern automatics, automated clutch gearboxes, CVTs (wait...) that could be used with a performance PHEV propulsion system... Yep, Nissan/Jatco have that technology, too.

Aluminum, steel, and thermoplastic construction materials, rather than expensive stuff like Carbon Fiber Monocoque construction... Yep.

Evora may have a bit more aluminum in it’s construction than Nissan Z has had in the past, and it arguably does have more suspension and handling expertise built into the suspension... (although Yamaha did fettle with 350Z Nismo’s handling and suspension)

Generally, from an overall systems standpoint, is the original Evora or Evora S really much more complicated than a Nissan Z car, or even one of Nissan’s transverse VQ-powered cars, if Nissan were to put that transverse VQ engine behind the driver?

With Nissan/Renault/Mitsubishi-automotive’s corporate size and economy of scale, and much more expansive parts bin and R&D budget, One would think that building a mid-engined car not too far off of the original Lotus Evora or Evora S as a benchmark, would be possible, at Nissan Z’s price point.

And if they actually hire a competent designer that can style a car timelessly, anywhere near this good looking:

like, say a production-sized tone-down of their Infiniti Emerge-E concept car.

And sell it for $35-45K as a Nissan... and maybe a higher-power (400-500hp/tq equivalent ) variant with Infiniti luxury touches at $ 60-80K, (still roughly half of BMW i8 or Acura NSX’s cost ) even with only 80% of the handling quality that the actual Lotus has... they’d REALLY have something to sell, something that no other car company can sell right now, an affordable mid-engined sports car.

For the icing on that cake, if they really wanted to do something interesting, they could use that new variable-compression turbo I4 in the Infiniti, with a PHEV drivetrain, and a modest battery pack... and build something with similar 350-400hp/tq performance to an early Evora, or a BMW i8, at Nissan Z kind of price tag, maybe with a little less aluminum than Evora, and without the CF monocoque and luxury materials of the i8.

Like this, but reversed... and tuned for sporting behavior... which is pretty much the same as BMW i8's drivetrain, and Chevy’s Voltec 2.

DISCUSSION (15)

Chuckles > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
11/05/2018 at 10:53

The V6 sports car seems to be a thing of the past. It seems that most manufacturers these days are more interested in squeezing power out of a turbo 4 or using a comically large V8. The middle ground compromise of a V6 is falling away.

Kanaric > Chuckles
11/05/2018 at 11:03

If even that. Miata and FRS use a non-turbo 4.

boredalways > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
11/05/2018 at 11:04

Isn’t the Camaro V6 1 LE still available?

Kinja'd!!!

Or is it still just a Pony car?

Chuckles > Kanaric
11/05/2018 at 11:13

Fair point. Those two definitely seem to try to accomplish a lot through weight savings.

Poor_Sh > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
11/05/2018 at 12:06

Personally, I’d like to include Porsche :)

Especially as the price points you gave aren’t too far from Cayman/Boxt er prices.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Chuckles
11/05/2018 at 13:14

See, I don’t see it as a compromise, I see it as a sweet spot, that people are getting away from.

MB is bringing back I6s, Jaguar was rumored to do so, too at one point... and lots of companies have supercharged or twin turbocharged V6s... but don’t use them in sports cars.

Turbo 4s are OK, but they are more complex to do a similar job, and Porsche 718 shows that... yes more power, but more parts, more heat , less appealing sound, and less pure throttle response. I would take a 981 over a 718 any day, and twice on S unday.

V8s are getting comically large, and almost unusable... as well as expensive and heavy to carry around 60-90% more engine than one can ever really use, along with the suspension, cooling, and braking, and chassis strengthening mass to go along with that.

350-400hp/tq is great, and plenty of overhead availability for most road going circumstances. Even hybrid i 8 shows that, with electric motors, and a turbocharged 3-cylinder engine with that sort of combined output for power efficiency. Great fun, without ridiculous overkill, and the electric traction motors fill in the off-peak torque, that smaller turbo engines lack... so arguably a hybrid can drive smoothly like a healthy 6-cylinder.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Poor_Sh
11/05/2018 at 13:19

Used, YES, New, not so much. 718 starts above 50, and with options, costs almost double what a Nissan Z costs.

My point is that a car similar to the original Evora or Evora S (not necessarily the 400/430 newer high-pressure supercharged ones with more carbon fiber bodywork ) , but built by a BIG company with a much larger economy of scale, with a mainstream platform-shared V6 engine, could sell for Nissan Z money.

That is before even beginning to talk about running costs after the sale, compared between a mainstream company like Nissan, Toyota, Honda, etc... vs. Porsche parts and labor.

Don’t get me wrong. I LOVE, LOVE Porsche’s products... but they aren’t entry level, they aren’t mainstream. The entry level Porsche is still a USED Porsche, not a new one... and I don’t think Porsche needs to move down market into that segment. I think Nissan, Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Kia, Ford, GM, Mazda, or other mainstream player needs to step up and fill that hole in the market.

I am merely using Nissan as today’s example, due to the Nissan Z being the last affordable V6 sports car.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > boredalways
11/05/2018 at 13:31

Camaro is no longer a Pony car, nor is Mustang or Challenger. They are modern day MUSCLE cars designed from the drawing board to house 400-800 horsepower V8 engines, and all the extra chassis, suspension, braking, and cooling that that requires.

EcoBoost Mustang, V6 Challenger, and EcoTec/V6 Camaro are down-spec cars, that are still 2+2, still bulky, and still carrying around all that extra mass designed in to handle the V8 that doesn’t happen to be installed.

They still weigh 3-500lbs more (3300-3600lbs-ish, 2 tons + for Challenger ) than a Z or Evora, or even a Porsche 918/718, which weigh about 2900-3200lbs.

Z and Evora aren’t as light as BRZ/Miata, but a guy who shops for clothing at a big and tall store can still fit, and drive the V6 cars . I cannot fit in an ND Miata, and a BRZ is way too tight... and I consider both to be under-powered, both for the total vehicle weight, and for their chassis capabilities.

Oh, and another thing... you can’t see a thing out of a Camaro.

But I would argue, if I had to have one of those three... A V6 RS Camaro Convertible, with the top DOWN as often as possible, would be the every-day sweetheart, since Ford ditched the V6 Mustang, and wouldn’t put Sport Package equipment on it.

LongbowMkII > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
11/05/2018 at 15:31

Scale isn’t going to help you out much. Particularly in nissan’s case. They’d have to redevelop a transverse manual for maybe 10k units. And then compete against used lotus Evor a’s.

Not only that the Nissan would have tons of (heavy) interior updates. Most p eople aren’t going to spend 40+ k on a car with manual seats and no cup holders

boredalways > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
11/05/2018 at 17:04

Wait, did you intend from the beginning to include all 6 cyl sports cars since u sed Boxsters /Caymans have a Flat-6 and new 718s use a Flat-4 turbo?

Poor_Sh > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
11/05/2018 at 18:23

Haha that's fine I understood, I was trying to be funny with my obvious bias.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > LongbowMkII
11/05/2018 at 19:03

Nissan is a corporate partner in Jatc o, like Toyota owns part of Aisin. They have those transmissions in inventory.

They could use Z seats, and nissan cupholders, and such.. those are ancillaries that ALL cars have. If they can build a Z, they could build the same car with the engine behind the seats, rather than in front of them.

A new mid-engined Nissan (or Honda, Toyota, Mazda, etc...) would kill the value of a used early Lotus Evora for most people for two reasons.

A: warranty.

B: serviceability at a widespread dealer network.

Lotus’ achilles heel is its size. Small economy of scale, no dealer network, no parts or service distribution. They don’t sell Lotuses through every Toyota dealer, serviced by Toyota’s technicians and parts distribution, despite using Toyota’s engines.

It is reportedly a great car until something goes wrong, then it becomes a challenge to get support nearby, if you don’t happen to live near a GOOD Lotus dealer, and not all of them are good... for the same reasons as jalopnik has been saying about why dealers don’t want to deal with used cars, or enthusiasts who want to order specific new per formance cars, rather than moving iron off the lot.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > boredalways
11/05/2018 at 19:18

Not really... again, because Porsche by it’s nature is up-market from mainstream. Boxster/Cayman fits the bill, but only used. A used car can’t drive the market, and if no new cars are built in that market segment, the used car supply will eventually dry up, so academically, new cars in the segment has to be a consideration.

New, Porsche 981s and now 718s cost more than $ 50K, and go up quickly with any options, above average household income, and above twice the average new car transaction price.

My premise is using existing cars, to extrapolate what can be done in terms of new cars in the near to moderate term, to bring mid-engined sports cars, affordable sports cars, and V6-powered moderate sized sports cars back... potentially all in one package, by a mainstream manufacturer, below 50K, preferably starting around 35K for ~350hp/tq, which seems like a sweet spot that not many cars are hitting right now.

LongbowMkII > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
11/06/2018 at 08:33

It’s not a plug and play sort of deal. The entire shape of the cabin compromises passenger use in a way that the public at large wouldn’t tolerate. You’d have to make an MR car that’s bigger, wider (in the middle at least) and taller.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > LongbowMkII
11/06/2018 at 09:18

I am not claiming that it is plug and play, but reportedly Evora, and also i8, are more generously sized, and 2+2, or at least nearly enough for cargo behind the front seats, as well as a rear trunk, as well as large enough for normal people to drive.

i8 has an awkward step-over on the wide sill of the monocoque, and early Evoras have a cramped footwell on the outboard side that later cars slightly widened, but both are at least as big or bigger than an SW20 MR2 or a Fiero, plus said rear jump-seats/cargo area.

And if lessons can be taken from Porsche, it is possible to have a decent sized trunk, and front trunk simultaneously, with some thought given to the packaging.

Nissan Z may consolidate it’s trunk space, but with the big chassis brace, and being a strict 2+0, it doesn’t have a lot more cargo space for NOT being a MR car... and trades outboard footwell obstruction for inboard footwell intrusion from the engine and transmission tunnel between the seats, more understeer from a heavier nose, and less visibility and aero due to pedestrian and frontal crash standards requiring air gap above the height of the engine.

There are tradeoffs, and the chassis have to be designed specifically, but the skillsets, materials, and equipment to implement a car either way, aren’t fundamentally different.