Wago-hatch

"Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To" (murdersofa) 11/01/2018 at 09:57 • Filed to: None

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What defines a ‘wagon’?

Future next gen S2000 owner > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 11/01/2018 at 10:02

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Torch got high and defined all this on the FP a while back.

functionoverfashion > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 11/01/2018 at 10:02

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https://jalopnik.com/5872562/what-makes-a-wagon-a-wagon

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 11/01/2018 at 10:07

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That 4th small-ish window at the very back.

Nibby > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 11/01/2018 at 10:07

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this is totally a wagon

Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 11/01/2018 at 10:15

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Beats me...

Ash78, voting early and often > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 11/01/2018 at 10:15

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Pedantry aside, my gut calls the Mazda 3 a wagon and the Lexus Malibu Maxx Sportcross a hatch because they raked the rear so aggressively . This comes pretty close to jiving with the Torchinsky roof/cargo ratio.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Future next gen S2000 owner 11/01/2018 at 10:16

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Yeah and his definition was how much of the roof covers the rear cargo area, and if the cargo area has its own window. Which both of those do, but the Lexus is a “wagon” and the Mazda is considered a “hatch”

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Ash78, voting early and often 11/01/2018 at 10:16

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Sure is Audi in here

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability 11/01/2018 at 10:17

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They both have a smallish window for the cargo area.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > functionoverfashion 11/01/2018 at 10:17

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So they’re both wagons.

Jay, the practical enthusiast > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 11/01/2018 at 10:21

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I feel like it’s the amount of cargo space.

But I also feel like wagons and SUVs are the same.

Urambo Tauro > Future next gen S2000 owner 11/01/2018 at 10:22

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Torch is overthinking it, IMO. Just count the doors instead. Coupe + rear gate = hatchback; sedan + rear gate = wagon.

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 11/01/2018 at 10:22

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I think I see the rear seat in the center of the last window in the 3, IDK if its the same for the Lexii. Maybe thats the differentiating factor then?

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 11/01/2018 at 10:26

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Torch was wrong on this one.

If it has a back seat that’s usable by an adult, it’s a wagon. Else, it’s a hatch.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > functionoverfashion 11/01/2018 at 10:26

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Where does shooting brake end and wagon begin?

Sovande > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 11/01/2018 at 10:30

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I would counter that neither are wagons.

Future next gen S2000 owner > Urambo Tauro 11/01/2018 at 10:36

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Doesn’t everyone overthink things when they get to sniffing that sweet, sweet glue?

Future next gen S2000 owner > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 11/01/2018 at 10:37

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4 doors vs 2. right?

Urambo Tauro > Future next gen S2000 owner 11/01/2018 at 10:43

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Torch’s glue sniffing usually produces good results. Usually.

Milky > Nibby 11/01/2018 at 10:49

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C A R G O C A P A C I T Y

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 11/01/2018 at 10:55

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I am 22 and fit comfortably in both back seats.

But I’m also 5'5"

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Sovande 11/01/2018 at 10:55

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Why is that?

Future next gen S2000 owner > Urambo Tauro 11/01/2018 at 10:56

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I think the Spam bumpers were the best results.

Sovande > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 11/01/2018 at 11:00

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Because they Mazda calls that car a hatchback and because of how small the cargo area is in the Lexus.  

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 11/01/2018 at 11:05

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Addendum- the back seat must be usable by the average adult American, ie, 5'9" and 190 lbs. for a male.

Hey, I just learned that I’m well below average!

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Future next gen S2000 owner 11/01/2018 at 11:08

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Yeah, that’s pretty much my feeling on the matter, but it’s not that simple :

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Sovande 11/01/2018 at 11:21

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It is actually quite spacious.

functionoverfashion > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 11/01/2018 at 11:27

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I feel like a shooting brake is a 2-door car with a wagony back. Wagons usually share their platform with a sedan.

But then above, the Mazda is based on the Mazda 3 sedan, right? But I’d still call it a hatch.

Who knows I give up hahah

functionoverfashion > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 11/01/2018 at 11:30

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Based on that logic, yeah. But I don’t necessarily agree.

gmctavish needs more space > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 11/01/2018 at 11:30

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I feel like wagons usually have more rear overhang, which with the rest of the Torch wagon requirements would make the Lexus a wagon and the Mazda a hatch.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > functionoverfashion 11/01/2018 at 11:33

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Fun fact: Lexus refers to the Sportcross as a Shooting Brake.

In other news nothing makes sense any more because this is a “coupe”

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > functionoverfashion 11/01/2018 at 11:35

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This is a good differentiato r - it matters what the underlying platform is (just like a “ true” SUV is still on a truck frame). 

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 11/01/2018 at 11:37

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It’s definitely a gray area and my belief ties pretty closely with Torch’s – but I go by window size. If a window exists behind the rear passenger door, and its size is 80% or greater than that of the window on the rear door then I say it qualifies as a wagon. If it’s just some little stubby piece of glass (or if none exists) to me that’s a hatchback.

Design elements like ridiculous rake on the rear hatch do sometimes result in certain cars that may qualify as a wagon under this definition having less cargo space than a hatchback, but in general I think it works – and it would still qualify as a wagon, just a bad one at playing that role efficiently.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 11/01/2018 at 11:39

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Necessary but not sufficient requirement: D-pillar

winterlegacy, here 'till the end > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 11/01/2018 at 11:42

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Tell that to my 1999 Legacy. Sedans have better legroom than the wagon.

functionoverfashion > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 11/01/2018 at 11:54

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I also feel like it has to do with the actual cargo area SIZE relative to the whole car. Like, a wagon to me has a space roughly equivalent to - or greater than - the size of the back seat, let’s say. That makes a Golf (think GTI) a hatch, and a Golf Sportwagen a proper “wagon.”

It makes the green thing you posted above a wagon because of the huge cargo area, despite the lack of 4 doors.

shop-teacher > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 11/01/2018 at 11:54

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I think the answer lies in the length of the rear overhang.

functionoverfashion > Future next gen S2000 owner 11/01/2018 at 11:54

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I’d say shooting brake also has a useless back seat if any. A true wagon has a real back seat, even if it lacks doors to access it directly.

Sovande > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 11/01/2018 at 12:04

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Still small compared to even a small wagon.  

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > functionoverfashion 11/01/2018 at 12:08

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Not sure... looks like a few of these have a usable back seat:  https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/g6678/ten-of-our-favorite-shooting-brakes-ever-produced/

Seems like rear overhang should be taken into account in the wagon debate. All true wagons seem to have significant rear overhang aft of the rear wheels, while hatchbacks really don’t.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Sovande 11/01/2018 at 12:10

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I mean it’s a wagon based off of a compact sports sedan. It’s not gonna swallow two mountain bikes like a B5.5 Passat wagon does.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 11/01/2018 at 12:10

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Both of those cars appear to have a d pillar.

Sovande > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 11/01/2018 at 12:11

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It’s a hatchback based on a compact sports sedan.  Doesn’t make it any less cool.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 11/01/2018 at 12:17

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They’re wagons. I also argue the first Vibe is also a wagon, though it was marketed as a hatchback. Tons of room in the backseats and lots of cargo space, and obvious D-pillar.

Future next gen S2000 owner > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 11/01/2018 at 12:33

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Words have no meaning to a marketer.

cmill189 - sans Volvo > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 11/01/2018 at 13:58

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A wagon should have rear glass larger than the door glass. Everything else is a hatch.